Hornby announce DCC sound at ?25 a pop.

[pauliebanger]

OK, I've extrapolated what has actually been announced for the sake of a punchy topic title.

 

But nevertheless, among a flurry of new model announcements, Hornby have announced a budget sound range which will certainly stir things up a bit.

 

A pacific steam loco with sound for £139? That's around 40% less than Hornby's City of Sheffield from 5 years ago!

 

A class 40 or a class 37 sound fitted for £69.99? That's what it says on the Hornby website, though no dates have yet been given.

 

If true, this will very likely bring DCC Sound the marketing 'shot in the arm' that Hornby's decision to include 'DCC ready' models into the mainstream did for DCC as a whole. There are people who still think DCC is just a few years old. 

 

Hornby say that these will be an alternative to, rather than a replacement of ESU. I wonder how long that will last?

 

No excuse now that dcc sound is too expensive!

 

The added cost is hardley more than plain vanilla DCC fitted.

 

A brave move by Hornby would be to dispense with non-sound decoders altogether, and users could decide whether to have the sound switched on or not.

 

Then we might find out if people are reluctant to run sound 'because it's not realistic' or if it is because the cost has been too high.

 

From my perspective, the more people running DCC sound, the more who may be drawn towards the added benefits of ZIMO or ESU from aftermarket providers.

 

There will always be a market for quality artisan products which deliver the required standards. And just maybe the price of aftermarket decoders will be reduced?

 

Remember that Hornby own several european brands, so it would be surprising if they did not roll these decoders out across the continent, and that could seriously challenge the current sound providers on a very broad front, not just in these small islands.

 

Exciting times? We'll see!

 

Kind regards,

 

Paul

[simong]

If only Hornby did N Gauge!

[pauliebanger]

If only Hornby did N Gauge!

 

 

Good point!

 

But Hornby haven't said how big these decoders are, so you might get a pleasant surprise!

 

Maybe they aren't separate decoders as we know them.They could be an integral part of the loco PCB. That might be one way to reduce costs.

 

Paul

[PhilH]

What could be interesting is to see what happens to the price point of the current various offerings of sound decoders. There are maybe those who think that  ~£100 a pop for these is a tad steep  - I wonder if this competition from Hornby, and bearing in mind that a lot of people are content with basically generic sounds, will see a drastic reduction in price for these high end sound decoders?

 

edit too many theseses....

[RedgateModels]

Good point Paul,

 

Zimo seemed to raise their prices as the perception was that they were too cheap a while ago, so they probably have some leeway to reduce them if needed to compete .......

[pauliebanger]

Good point Paul,

 

Zimo seemed to raise their prices as the perception was that they were too cheap a while ago, so they probably have some leeway to reduce them if needed to compete .......

 

ZIMO prices were increased internationally by ZIMO themselves. RAIL EXCLUSIVE, who had previously reduced prices to reflect favourable exchange rates have no influence on that decision, and no lee-way to absorb the price increase themselves.

 

Any significant price reductions would have to come from the manufacturers themselves. My point being that pan-european competition from cheaper alternatives is much more likely to have an impact on prices than, say, half a dozen UK types from Bachmann. BTW the latter still work out more like £65 per loco than Hornby's projected £25.

 

I think the greatest impact will be felt by the niche players, Digitrax and MyLocoSound, whose sole marketing advantage is low price. Hornby's solution is around half their price. If Hornby's sound quality is anywhere near as good as these two (and let's face it, that wouldn't be hard to achieve) it's hard to see who would continue to buy either of them. At least Digitrax can be reprogrammed and uses real sound samples, so maybe I'm being a little harsh on the big D.

 

Kind regards,

 

Paul

[NoggintheNog]

What could be interesting is to see what happens to the price point of the current various offerings of sound decoders. There are maybe those who think that  ~£100 a pop for these is a tad steep  - I wonder if this competition from Hornby, and bearing in mind that a lot of people are content with basically generic sounds, will see a drastic reduction in price for these high end sound decoders?

 

edit too many theseses....

I don't think so.

 

The US sound market has gone through this already, admittedly the QSI/Soundtraxx competition kept prices much lower than here to begin with, but Bachmann have been selling budget sound equipped locos for £75 or so for a year or more now, along with cheaper factory installs reducing the cost difference significantly between them and the dcc ready versions from other manufacturers, and there hasnt really been any change in the prices of the fully programmable chips at all, although QSI introduced full stereo and all sorts of fancy trickery in the next generation chip without upping price during that period.

 

For an idea of what the cheap sound chips give you, youtube search for Bachmann S2 or S4 (6 wheeled shunter type) or the DD40X for the bigger diesel models.

[Savoyard]

What I find annoying about the current Sound fitted locos from both Hornby and Bachmann is the £140+ extra cost compared to non-sound versions of the same type.

 

When you consider blank ESU Loksound decoders cost about £86 that is additional £50+ for a sound version, I bet neither manufacturer is paying anywhere near £86 for their sound chips!

[pauliebanger]

What could be interesting is to see what happens to the price point of the current various offerings of sound decoders. There are maybe those who think that  ~£100 a pop for these is a tad steep  - I wonder if this competition from Hornby, and bearing in mind that a lot of people are content with basically generic sounds, will see a drastic reduction in price for these high end sound decoders?

 

edit too many theseses....

 

Hi Phil,

 

I wonder if Hornby's steamers sound realistic? Maybe things sound better if they are cheap enough?

 

Those who think ~£100 is currently too much for high end decoders should have a look and listen to ZIMO decoders ~£82.

 

Will high end prices tumble? Who knows for sure? Last time I looked Ciabatta was significantly more expensive per 100g than a normal, supermarket own brand white loaf.

 

Doesn't stop me buying Ciabatta whenever I want some. Peoples have different views on 'value' than price.

 

I think Hornby's move will dramatically expand the market for DCC sound, not simply take a slice out of the existing one.

 

Kind regards,

 

Paul

[alfsboy]

Hi Phil,

 

Doesn't stop me buying Ciabatta whenever I want some. Peoples have different views on 'value' than price.

 

Paul

i agree ,its a great wine .

[Andy Y]

For me, this approach to sound was what I alluded to as a 'game-changer' in the Hornby predictions topic - not because I want it but I can see how it will open up the market to sound from the trainset+ end and hopefully onwards.

 

Before anyone gets too excited Hornby won't be selling sound decoders on their own for £25 and the chips won't be programmable so it's not a cheap route into sound for the aftermarket.

 

I wonder if Hornby's steamers sound realistic? Maybe things sound better if they are cheap enough?

I've heard the sound 'off loco' from a proof of concept circuit board with a basic speaker whilst on a rolling road and it doesn't sound any worse, to me, in that form than any other RTR sound loco (but not as good as a decent project on a good decoder with appropriate speakers - no surprise but I have to add that caveat) so hopefully the concept will be judged as acceptable value.

[pauliebanger]

Cheap gimmicks get cheaper.... cant be bad really

 

 Ah, a convert!

 

It's happening already. Well done Hornby.

 

Paul

[Shedman5]

This hopefully will increase the market for sound and maybe help to bring the price of sound down across the board, all credit to Hornby for this approach.

[kintbury jon]

For me, this approach to sound was what I alluded to as a 'game-changer' in the Hornby predictions topic - not because I want it but I can see how it will open up the market to sound from the trainset+ end and hopefully onwards.

 

Before anyone gets too excited Hornby won't be selling sound decoders on their own for £25 and the chips won't be programmable so it's not a cheap route into sound for the aftermarket.

 

/

Could the chips be utilised in other locos?  For example, if I bought a Hornby 37, could I take the chip out and put it into a Bachmann 37?  

[big jim]

Could the chips be utilised in other locos?  For example, if I bought a Hornby 37, could I take the chip out and put it into a Bachmann 37?  

 

it says in the Hornby thread that its an 8 pin plug so who knows?

[pauliebanger]

it says in the Hornby thread that its an 8 pin plug so who knows?

 

Thanks big jim, I missed that. Not likely to be N gauge then, not yet at least.

 

If it has an 8 pin connector, it will fit other models, though Bachmann tend to be clinging to the 21 pin MTC interface.

 

Of course, that's assuming that a proprietry decoder intended for specific Hornby models only (if Andy is correct) will be wired to normal DCC standards.

 

Paul

 

Ha ha, edited to insert a 'b' into Hornby to save unintentionally giving offence!

[JohninAustria]

Good point Paul,

 

Zimo seemed to raise their prices as the perception was that they were too cheap a while ago, so they probably have some leeway to reduce them if needed to compete .......

 

 

ZIMO prices were increased internationally by ZIMO themselves. RAIL EXCLUSIVE, who had previously reduced prices to reflect favourable exchange rates have no influence on that decision, and no lee-way to absorb the price increase themselves.

 

Any significant price reductions would have to come from the manufacturers themselves. My point being that pan-european competition from cheaper alternatives is much more likely to have an impact on prices than, say, half a dozen UK types from Bachmann. BTW the latter still work out more like £65 per loco than Hornby's projected £25.

 

I think the greatest impact will be felt by the niche players, Digitrax and MyLocoSound, whose sole marketing advantage is low price. Hornby's solution is around half their price. If the sound quality is anywhere near as good as these two (and let's face it, that wouldn't be hard to achieve) it's hard to see who would buy them. At least Digitrax can be reprogrammed and uses real sound samples, so maybe I'm being a little harsh on the big D.

 

Kind regards,

 

Paul

 

If you check the ZIMO prices in euros (UVP, in German = RRP, in English =Recommended Retail Price), you will find that most of the sound decoders have decreased in price by 10 euros or so from 2013 prices compared to older 2010 prices. If you want the details, I can give them to you with the official ZIMO price lists as downloaded from the ZIMO website. Any increase, or decrease in prices in pounds must be due to currency fluctuations, which neither ZIMO nor the UK dealers can control. ZIMO try very hard to keep the prices competitive, despite the increase in staff costs (2 or 3% a year in Austria) and increases in the component prices. So, saying that ZIMO have increased their prices is just not correct. 

 

Regards

John Russell

Austria

[pheaton]

I'm sceptical......and ill try and explain why.....

 

This could be in response to Bachmann using soundtraxx decoders as a "budget" range..... but soundtraxx decoders themselves have been available for quite sometime and whilst I may be very naïve and by all means point out to me if I am, I don't think these have really caught on un the British sound market. Which to me seem to be dominated by ESU and more increasingly ZIMO.

 

In the early days I would say that 8 times out of 10 when I by a sound equipped model be it off ebay or a secondhand chip it gets re-blown, for example....ive bought Hadrian (Bachmann 47) my second sound model, and it got reblown because I didn't agree with the manufacturer supplied sounds, more realistic alternatives were offered.

Now we see market has matured a lot more and reblows for me are for sound chips ive bought second hand only.

 

the new chips are cheap for a reason and we are yet to see what the limitations are. But using the soundtraxx statement I would be intrigued to see why they have not caught on....I think I know the reason....

 

for the trainset/budget market they are fantastic money maker for Hornby "have dcc sound for £25" dcc sound being regarded as a model rail luxury, but id be very shocked if these chips can be reblown......so what I hear you cry, I don't think its going to spawn any new "pauliebangers" any new "brian from howse" or any new "legomanbiffo's" because potentially there not capable of it, fine if your happy with factory direct sound....but its not a patch on what's available externally.

 

good for Hornby....yes it puts them back in a competitive seat.....good for the dcc sound movement....well ill reserve judgement on that its not bad though obviously.....

 

For me long term DCC sound hardware is ridiculously over-priced and I cant see why, the only real fluctuating component price wise is flash memory doesn't stop me buying it but Id be willing to bet it sways many modellers opinions on it....
 

[murphyfp]

Hi Phil,

 

I wonder if Hornby's steamers sound realistic? Maybe things sound better if they are cheap enough?

 

Those who think ~£100 is currently too much for high end decoders should have a look and listen to ZIMO decoders ~£82.

 

Will high end prices tumble? Who knows for sure? Last time I looked Ciabatta was significantly more expensive per 100g than a normal, supermarket own brand white loaf.

 

Doesn't stop me buying Ciabatta whenever I want some. Peoples have different views on 'value' than price.

 

I think Hornby's move will dramatically expand the market for DCC sound, not simply take a slice out of the existing one.

 

Kind regards,

 

Paul

 

 

I wonder if Hornby's steamers sound realistic?

 

Have You heard Hornby's Clive Of India I am still working out how they are getting so much bass out of the small round speaker.

Rgs Richard

[pauliebanger]

I'm sceptical......and ill try and explain why.....

 

This could be in response to Bachmann using soundtraxx decoders as a "budget" range..... but soundtraxx decoders themselves have been available for quite sometime and whilst I may be very naïve and by all means point out to me if I am, I don't think these have really caught on un the British sound market. Which to me seem to be dominated by ESU and more increasingly ZIMO.

 

In the early days I would say that 8 times out of 10 when I by a sound equipped model be it off ebay or a secondhand chip it gets re-blown, for example....ive bought Hadrian (Bachmann 47) my second sound model, and it got reblown because I didn't agree with the manufacturer supplied sounds, more realistic alternatives were offered.

Now we see market has matured a lot more and reblows for me are for sound chips ive bought second hand only.

 

the new chips are cheap for a reason and we are yet to see what the limitations are. But using the soundtraxx statement I would be intrigued to see why they have not caught on....I think I know the reason....

 

for the trainset/budget market they are fantastic money maker for Hornby "have dcc sound for £25" dcc sound being regarded as a model rail luxury, but id be very shocked if these chips can be reblown......so what I hear you cry, I don't think its going to spawn any new "pauliebangers" any new "brian from howse" or any new "legomanbiffo's" because potentially there not capable of it, fine if your happy with factory direct sound....but its not a patch on what's available externally.

 

good for Hornby....yes it puts them back in a competitive seat.....good for the dcc sound movement....well ill reserve judgement on that its not bad though obviously.....

 

For me long term DCC sound hardware is ridiculously over-priced and I cant see why, the only real fluctuating component price wise is flash memory doesn't stop me buying it but Id be willing to bet it sways many modellers opinions on it....

 

 

Some interesting points.

 

One thing I can offer some explanation about though:

Soundtraxx own branded decoders do not have any British sounds available, which probably explains their low take up. They made some 'Anglicised' steam sound decoders some years back which ZTC marketed. They just added some UK whistles to existing steam projects.

 

The re-badged Bachmann branded (I presume) versions with British sounds are not yet available so we have no idea how well they will be received.

 

Andy has told us they are not capable of being re-blown, and at the price it could hardly be expected.

 

It's hard to get this message through. The hardware is just a small portion of the total costs involved in producing and retailing sound decoders. There is a huge amount of R&D to fund, there's the decoder software to keep up to date, add new features and so on. There has to be additional software for us to compile our projects and then load them to decoders. All this requires maintenance. ESU have been selling LokV4.0 for a couple of years now but there is still no operating manual, in any language. I'm sure that's not by design, just very heavy drain on resources.

 

If you can cut out all this by making a 'fixed system' with a handful of design/programming staff, then a large part of the overhead is removed. Add to that you produce them for yourself, not having to 'buy in' other people's overheads, that slims it down even more.

 

For those reasons, I agree that re-blows are not likely to be possible. The route to customised sounds will remain as now with aftermarket decoders and really dedicated sound project compilers.

 

I know it's natural to assume that as Bachmann announced their budget sound range first, this is just a response from Hornby (which is what everyone expected would happen sooner or later). But we don't know how long either B or H have been working on these projects. Whoever gets their products to market first might be more enlightening.

 

As long as the sound is acceptable and does not put potential purchasers off other DCC sound possibilities, I think it's a bold move that will open up the market to many more people.

 

'Well played'  Hornby. (and Bachmann too, but this thread concerns Hornby).

 

Paul

[pauliebanger]

I wonder if Hornby's steamers sound realistic?

 

Have You heard Hornby's Clive Of India I am still working out how they are getting so much bass out of the small round speaker.

Rgs Richard

 

Hi Richard,

 

No I haven't, but that would be a loksound decoder, not what we are discussing here.

 

However, that aside, I think you may have misunderstood my tongue-in-cheek post. (probably because I refuse to use emoticons).

 

So I will make it plain.

 

I genuinely hope that Hornby's new venture is successful. Andy says the sound is acceptable, and if that's the case, it good news.

 

Paul

[robmcg]

From a consumer point-of-view, and being in the 55-65yr bracket who remembers and understands the sounds of trains of the popular 1955-75 era, I wish Hornby well in the supply of DCC sound locos, steam and diesel.  I don't know enough to debate the pros and cons of 're-blowing' a chip, but did in 2010 buy two Hornby sound engines; A4 and Duchess, and several Bachmann sound diesel electrics.

 

My experience of these models was mixed, I learned to re-set CVs to reasonable imitation of reality, but in a short time became frustrated by the limitations of the whole idea, because approaching sound, crescendo, rattling wheels, and receeding sound, could not be easily replicated.

 

So I sold all the sound models and when I made my crude Youtube clips of my model trains, grafted recording onto the film of passing trains, not very well, but much more convincing than a steady-volume steady chuffing sound which usually but not always was out-of-phase with the driving wheels of the engine.

 

I know that others can and have done much better jobs of matching sound to engines, and diesels in particular can be very impressive, but for me I found the steady un-changing chuffing of a steam engine at steady speed very unrealistic and really quite annoying after a few minutes. 

 

My opinion only.

 

 

 

Rob

[big jim]

i wonder how many people will buy the budget sound class 37 and do body swaps with their favorite lima models to bring them up to date?

 

when you compare the cost of the Hornby loco with sound (£70 rrp) with a vi-trains lima replacment chassis (£40) there is not really that much in it if you then sold the old lima chassis and new Hornby body on via ebay or the like, im sure you could happily get £15 for the hardwired dcc fitted chassis and £15 for the body, (as im sure there still plenty of people running lima who would like a new liveried bodyshell) which brings the price down to somewhere around the vi-trains chassis price

 

now thats design clever at work

[murphyfp]

Hi Richard,

 

No I haven't, but that would be a loksound decoder, not what we are discussing here.

 

However, that aside, I think you may have misunderstood my tongue-in-cheek post. (probably because I refuse to use emoticons).

 

So I will make it plain.

 

I genuinely hope that Hornby's new venture is successful. Andy says the sound is acceptable, and if that's the case, it good news.

 

Paul

 

Paul

I also hope that Hornby's new venture is successful they seem to have made major inroads to DCC Control and Sounds Quality

at a more reasonable cost to modelers. It may force others manufacturers to reduce their costs to modelers. 

 

I am looking forward to the new P2 with sound (I like the Cock o the North anyway cos I am from the North)

Rgs Richard

[cromptonnut]

The sound itself isn't expensive - it's the sound chip.

 

"Blank" ESU chips from SWD cost £84.75, chips with sound files are £96. 

 

It will be interesting to see how this pans out - small O gauge locos can often use a OO sound chip if it has a small motor with low current draw, so I'm sure there will be people buying the Hornby sound fitted locos, stripping the chip out for their O gauge small loco, and reselling the sound-less loco on Ebay to recover most of their expenditure.

 

As already put, it'll be whether it's a "plug in" chip or integrated into the loco's PCB whether this is an option or not.