Compound2632

Just now, magmouse said:

Could the TC have specified Williams, but actually an alternative (cheaper?) type have been actually fitted?

I feel the need to have sight of Drg. 2820...

3 minutes ago, magmouse said:

but the something doesn't quite look like 'Williams'.

I'd say it is WILLIAMS - just the W isn't very clear. Certainly the ILLIA. Clearer than PATENT!

20 minutes ago, magmouse said:

There isn't an indication in Atkins of the source of their information.

A general problem not just with Atkins but with similar learned tomes on Great Western subjects, I find. My unproven suspicion is that it's bound up with a lot of official Great Western documentation having made its way into private collections, which is very bad practice from the point of view of conservation.

2 minutes ago, magmouse said:

I wonder if there is some confusion here? If this is the Williams supporter, then the GWR type is something else. 

Well, my authority for saying the type used by the Midland was Williams' patent rests on that Traffic Committee minute. The cost in 1906 was £3-8-0 per vehicle, nothing being mentioned about royalties. The minute relating to the Carr's biscuit wagons makes no mention of sheet supports: "Resolved that ten open goods wagons fitted with passenger undergear and automatic vacuum brake complete be built for running on express goods trains in accordance with the plan produced in lieu of the same number of ordinary goods wagons on the broken up list the additional cost being estimated at £33-10-0 per vehicle or £335 for the ten trucks."

The sheet supporters fitted to the 100 Midland D299 wagons lettered for return to Six Pit in 1906 were of the Williams Patent type, according to the relevant Traffic Committee minute. The one known photograph shows that these lacked the semi-circular guide, the arrangement being repeated for the D304 Carr's biscuit wagons authorised the following year:

[Embedded link to catalogue image of Midland Railway Study Centre item 88-G5/36.]

I have not found any drawing in the C&W Drawing Register that would apply to the fitting of supports to the D299 wagons. The Study Centre does have Drg. 2820 for the D304 wagons, item 88-D1092, but I have not yet seen this.

57 minutes ago, magmouse said:

And no sign of washer plates, though there must have been something on the inside where the bolts holding the spacer blocks on ended up. Equally, there is no sign in the picture of the bolt-heads and washers for the T-irons, so it may just be the photo isn't resolving what is there.

I think an L-shaped washer plate for the inside top of the corner can just be made out but otherwise the Great Western (and the SECR) made great use of coach bolts that required no additional washer at the head end and were, I think, countersunk into the woodwork, so are well-nigh invisible.

37 minutes ago, magmouse said:

Apparently, an alternative design by Marillier was tried but not adopted - there is a photo of this. Anyone know who Williams was? Or a way to get hold of the patent? A quick online search didn't produce anything.

There is a biography of Frank Marillier (1885-1928), who was Swindon Carriage & Wagon Works Manager from 1902, in Tony Wood's Saltney Carriage & Wagon Works (GWSG / Wider View, 2007). This includes a table of his patents, including the cattle truck gate lock, held jointly with Frederick Wright, the Locomotive Works Manager, but nothing on sheet rail supports. The references Wood gives for these are in the TNA RAIL 252 series - the GWR documents series. As far as I can find, Bixley et al., Southern Wagons Vol. 3 (OPC, 2000) makes no particular mention of the origin of the sheet supporter on the SER/SECR though they record Maunsell's appointments of G.H. Pearson and Lionel Lynes from Swindon as Works Manager and Chief C&W Draughtsman, which accounts for the GW features of SECR wagons from the Great War onwards, with steel frames and external knees etc. 

No sign of Williams!

4 minutes ago, Miss Prism said:

The plates/straps on the insides of the ends (to match the supporter bits) are very logical, but I haven't spotted them on any prototype pics yet.

These are derived from the RCH drawing linked. It's perfectly possible that this drawing follows an existing railway company drawing - possibly delving in TNA RAIL 1080/387-9 might reveal something. The 1923 drawing is for a 17' 6" wagon so is presumably a revision of an earlier drawing; the SECR was using this pattern of sheet support from the late 1890s so I'll risk suggesting it was an invention of Wainwright's and not a Great Western innovation at all!

As I'm sure you've seen, Mike Osbourne @airnimal uses the Slaters S7 wheels which he improves by, I think, thinning the back of the spokes, which inevitably have a V-profile for release from the mold. It's all a question of how far one is willing to go! (And hardly for an 00 bodger such as myself to pontificate on.) But I agree, one can get away with a lot more on wagons with double-side brakes, tiebars, etc. where the general business distracts the eye.

This certainly withstands the scrutiny of very close-up photography! 

Is this 0 or S7?

How does the Peco (ex-Webster?) kit compare with the Slaters (ex-Coopercraft) kit?

It seems reasonably obvious that even if the engine didn't get a full repaint, the tanks would have been painted and lettered when fitted and not re-painted or re-lettered for a good few years afterwards.

A superb model.

The use of a black undercoat is interesting. You say "top coat and two coats of varnish" - just a single coat of green? What paint and how applied?

Likewise, what varnish have you used?

A lovely set of photos, thank you. 

I notice that all the engines are facing west - I suppose that gives the cabs some chance of providing protection from the weather!

On 07/12/2022 at 11:01, Dave John said:

They were vertical planks Mikkel, but they don't show terribly well through the transfer. I did use microsol but enough of it to conform to the planks and the transfer just dissolved. 

I find a fingernail is a useful tool in such situations.

3 minutes ago, hmrspaul said:

Thanks, 

Thanks in turn. From the map (https://maps.nls.uk/view/126522818) the Osborne St sheet stores were an ex-L&YR establishment. 

On 21/07/2019 at 17:46, hmrspaul said:

Photos of LMS sheets here https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/lmstarpulin

Now a dead link...

On 03/10/2022 at 13:41, wenlock said:

IAs I think you mentioned before my 6 wheel 1st and 2nd class composite is probably a little too elderly to mix with these “modern”clerestories!

Eating words:

Lustleigh, c. 1912.

Very nice. The magnetic (?) join at the corners seems to work well.

Sorry to be a nark again but shouldn't the full brake be at the rear of the NCPS train?

Looking forward to more wagons!

A handsome vehicle - I do like a nice near-symmetrical full brake.

3 minutes ago, Barry Ten said:

I love an optimist! 😂

I love to tease!

Actually, I think the Slater's E37 composite becomes a pressing need, to provide first and second class accommodation for the clerestory rake.

A magnificent pair of vehicles. I shall look forward, though, to seeing the painted and lined 6-wheelers at the Fareham exhibition! (If I'm fit to go...)

10 hours ago, wenlock said:

Exactly, you'd be daft not to come!😀

 

Hope to see you there!

Looks like Sunday afternoon.

Farnham Show... 25 miles / 45 minutes...

Some very fine layouts on the bill - and that's not just the Edwardian Great Western ones.

Congratulations!

1 hour ago, Mikkel said:

Mrs Wenlock's list,

So how have you got away with all the time previously spent modelling?

2 hours ago, steve howe said:

Mikkel, great build! and thanks for the detailed step by step images. I'm interested to know who will be re-introducing the Slaters kits? will it be Slaters themselves or Coopercraft who, I believe, took over marketing their 4mm range.

It is Slaters themselves. The collaboration with Coopercraft (now defunct) was unsuccessful. 

3 hours ago, Mikkel said:

Having looked at photos of early GWR motor car drivers today all have moustaches, none have greying beards. Perhaps a generational thing. 

Indeed - a new skill, being learnt by younger men. No-one has grown old in the business yet.

I agree that your fashion plate timeline shows the haut ton. (Let that be your new English phrase of the day!)

You're more likely to see middle as well as working class styles in some of the early films - tramcar rides etc., which also have the advantage of mostly being in provincial towns.