MidlandRed

I agree the AM4 (304) was an awesome beast. I particularly liked the suggestion of dust generator to replicate the cloud that used to rise when you sat down. The seats were so creaky and the springs boingy as well. We had to endure them in place of Park Royal DMUs, (and GRCW), which they replaced, Birmingham to Walsall, and they felt like a return to the steam age, comfort wise. And those single compartments - accessed only by the door on each side!!! Very odd indeed. They were most certainly surpassed by the altogether up to date (at the time) AM10 units, which were a vast improvement in all respects (ride quality, quietness, seats and fittings and external design). AND there were half (or a third) height windows at the ends which you could look out of and see the way ahead or behind if you kneeled on the seat. When travelling on the trainspotters’ special (Birmingham to Euston semi fast) (it had a slower top speed than the ALx hauled expresses so you could get numbers easier as you passed locations - it also slowed down to stop at some key ones), the only worry was emerging from the Northampton line into Roade cutting where units 071 and 094 had each, during the later 60s, on separate occasions, come to grief colliding with ALx hauled derailed freight trains formed of short wheelbase wagons. 094 was the first to disappear in about 1967 followed by 071 a while later - though some cars from 094 got formed into another unit (the tiny unit numbers on the ends being visible if parked in a station). Come on Accurascale - a suite of 304 based and 310 based EMUs would be wonderful - also AL2,3,4 type AC electrics (AL5 done by Others - surely a high fi AL1 would be a stonking Hornby Dublo reissue to commemorate the last loco type made by the original Hornby company).

I have to beg to differ with you here - there are several ‘green’ tunnels on HS1 protecting villages like Boxley, Hollingbourne and Harrietsham from excessive noise - environmental mitigation effectively. I recall a few years back sitting in the garden of a very pleasant gastro pub in the rural North Downs, not too far from Maidstone when I heard an appalling din which sounded like a jet plane - followed closely by another - it took me a couple of minutes to realise it was a Eurostar train passing on HS1, a mile or so away, and located on an embankment/over bridge. Now the M20 is not too far away from it but that is more of a background hum that you don’t even notice after a while - the noise from the Eurostar is something that is very intrusive. Lots of noise fencing and other techniques like earth bunds are in place also. So I’m not surprised HS2 is having these items. Yes we need the scheme, but let’s not destroy the environment and people’s home environments in the process - these environmental features and mitigations are essential (same on road projects). I just want to know when the arches are to be painted yellow/gold 😃 No doubt votes do come into the equation as well but environmental studies will have been carried out across a broad range of subject areas and mitigations of all sorts incorporated.

I saw W56289 parked in the sidings at St Erth during the summer of 1966 (green livery) - presumably there as available strengthening if required - the branch was being run by a 3 car ex South Wales class 116 set from batch 3 at the time. I have the car numbers somewhere! W55015 was recorded in Railway Magazine early in 1967 as operating the Looe branch (referred to it as the Looe branch car, in blue livery). There is a photo of an unidentified blue SYP car on the Looe branch in the RCTS photo archive also, I presumed was 55015. Interestingly W55000 went to Scotland some time before the others along with the railbuses - presumably displaced when the Bodmin/Padstow etc lines closed.

Quite a lot I think - I received a BR blue GUV the other day - quite interesting that I’ve been looking for a used Bachmann one for a couple of years - some appeared on EBay within a week or so of me receiving the new Hornby one - I bid on two or three but they were getting up into the £50 plus area so I was outbid on all - and there were multiple bidders and 30 + watching!! Who said transition era and pre TOPS BR blue was not popular!!! Sometimes I liken myself (with a keen ness on pre TOPS and slight disdain for the multi colour, multi livery, lack of headcode, light festooned privatisation models) with older guys in the 1960s who seemed to despise anything in BR livery, wanting Edwardian and Georgian era liveries only) 😁 Back on topic - I’m awaiting a Hornby 88DS BR Departmental but aren’t there others? Consett 9F, Coronation Pacific etc)? Of course, the difference with this and some of the other makers is you don’t have to/are not encouraged to pay up front, neither with direct sales or big box dealers - so late arrivals (the 88DS was due in spring 2023) would make a significant difference to Hornby’s income and that is probably what they’re referring to.

I think the opposite is true for many people (if those I know that have bought models like this one, the Fell etc etc are in any way typical)! They’d prefer to have the unusual loco and are willing to overlook the occasional minor faux pas (if indeed they even are aware of it) whether it be the missing beading on this loco or missing rivets etc etc. This model really looks the part and I for one am not expert enough to have noticed missing flange pins and the like. I certainly wouldn’t have from viewing distance on a layout. I thought whilst watching the Accurascale, Hornby and Cavalex models on the Making Tracks 3 layout - these models, in many cases are beautifully detailed but at viewing distance unless I’d been told, I couldn’t have said whether the 37s were Accurascale - in fact even side by side it is hard to tell these days. Thats not to say I don’t welcome the levels of accuracy achieved these days, in, just as an example, say a Cavalex 56 - there are loads more! However there is still a place for the 10800 in the market, despite the unfortunate error noted by several in this thread.

It appears that other manufacturers have problems supplying dealers (in one case the manufacturer has claimed they supplied everything ordered, from several sources, whilst purchasers complained they hadn’t received theirs). This suggests there is a problem with retailers getting confused or the manufacturer getting confused. I suspect the truth lies somewhere between the two although I wouldn’t wish to make a guess what percentage lies where. Whilst not wishing to criticise too much, it has to be said this continued recounting of historic issues from two or three Hornby systems in the past, and attempts to offer business solutions, is hardly on topic in a new loco thread (indeed it seems most new loco threads) is surely unnecessary whilst noting the issues with some other manufacturers don’t get mentioned and analysed on this basis….. perhaps a thread in each manufacturer area discussing business practices might be a way forward (though I seem to recall there is a Hornby one somewhere. As has been stated, Hornby is moving gradually towards more direct sales (which will not be palatable for retailers) whilst newer entrants like Accurascale and Rapido? have started with direct sales and then developed a retailer network. So Hornby are ultimately taking away from dealers, potentially whereas the newer guys are adding product. It’s very clear which has the likelihood of annoying retailers most! Back on topic, the 78xxx looks to be a great model - if it’s as good as the latest version of the 9F (with correct driving wheel spacings), those who have ordered will be very pleased.

Did you not notice the class 47 and class 37s, @The Johnster? The latter is eminently suitable for the South Wales valleys, though admittedly way out of your timescales and thus far, they’ve only done D6829 as a suitable version, and even that moved away autumn 1966!! Given the amount allegedly invested in the class 47, you begin to wonder where some manufacturers are obtaining the finance for so many announcements - I know ‘crowd funding’ accounts for some but nonetheless I’m hopeful none of these become ‘super novas’, so as to speak - well certainly not before my several models on order from various have been delivered - although I haven’t paid anything for any of them so far - my previously crowd funded items have already been received 😀 My previous requests for any of class 81-84 electrics or 310 stand (easily produced as a 312 in various variants also to broaden operating territory) - and add to that a ubiquitous diesel - that archetypal WR class 116 DMU, please (though they did perform in the north-east, Scotland and at Cricklewood as well - much to my annoyance in spotting days!!). I too am not interested in gazumping Hornby and the like - the Caprotti in development in well known!! **** apologies for befuddlement and talking about electric and diesel in a steam thread - pannier tank please (standard 57xx/8750 etc etc would do just great****

Fine - it wasn’t meant to be a criticism - in fact the side by side is very useful indeed. However it may account for some of the comments made, unless the driving wheels, for instance are different sizes (which I doubt!!).

There’s something very odd going on with parallax on the photo of Torquay Manor - this can be seen by the fact the handrail and cab windows don’t line up in the same way as the photo of 7801 above - can also be seen with the tender wheels not lining up as well on 7800. Talking of handrails the cab ones on 7801 appear to be floating in air at the top on the upper photo. I don’t think this is true of either model although the issue of some Accurascale ones being disconnected on arrival has been reported. Beyond that they look very alike but differences like the size of rivet detail and things like positions of detail on the side of the fireboxes are apparent. Maybe the latter is down to, as @The Stationmaster said, source data used in the development. This has happened with other models, particularly where a preserved variant is available (Evening Star for instance). A 3D scan is likely to be extremely accurate - of the item being modelled…use of drawings will show the item as originally designed….. use of photos will show detail at a point in time. The bare fact is that none of those might be appropriate to the particular point in time a modeller has chosen to model as a particular prototype item may have changed in detail over time but there is a point where ‘severe rivet counting disorder (SRCD)’ sets in, and a compromise has to be made. I think both models are extraordinarily good. I, too, prefer the Accurascale - largely down to preferring the colour and the overall stance of the loco.

I remain to be convinced that Montana H has been employed by an international all in end of life management concern - is this a case of the pack of hounds chasing the fox not only across the wrong field but entirely the wrong country estate 🤣😂🤩

There’s some very odd ideas (and puns) appearing in this thread - not least regarding Montana H. I recall watching a video of @Jenny Emily (Jennifer E Kirk) interviewing her at Making Tracks 3 not a couple of weeks ago and distinctly recall some comment about her moving to the ‘hospitality’ industry. I didn’t realise that funeral directors, even those which are part of big conglomerates, considered themselves as part of hospitality - I suppose part of a funeral often involves a wake which might be held in a hospitality venue but operating crematoria and the like is surely not - or perhaps the clergy and their premises are also considered in that sector these days - the mind boggles, somewhat!! 🙃

Just look at that body side rippling effect - exactly how I remember these new at Crewe in 1968-71 and especially when in ex works condition. There’s a challenge for Accurascale - that rippling is more obvious that some of the riveting around the grilles!

KR Models are doing/have announced a class 40. I can’t help wondering if Accurascale did one of the initial AC electrics, what a wonderful sound version could be made - all that roaring in the station!! I vote for a class 84 or 83 😜 There are also class 86 and 87s available (along with 90 and 92 - soon to be 89 also). AC electrics seem quite popular (except for the early ones).

Im of the same view regarding acquiring a good EE Type 4 model and had even thought about ordering one of the new Bachmann releases, but don’t like the way the body sits so far above the fronts of the bogies, and thus haven’t. These look ok to me, barring correction of some details - so I’m going to wait and see what they’re like at the next stage before deciding - a bit early in the process, @The Stationmaster to be writing this off in my view.

Sarcasm aside - I’m sure if this was a Hornby (or anyone else) thread, the masses would be stating that it’s easily corrected but the customer shouldn’t have to. Whilst this manufacturer, good as it is, is new to steam loco models, one would hope they’ve learned from this design/construction error for their next steam outline models. I haven’t read the rules, but surely Parliamentary enquiries are reserved for the KR thread or the likes of Titgate 😄

Without wishing to get into a WR v the rest type of argument, the LMR’s considerable period of experience with locos fitted with smoke deflectors, which were of the sandbox type and positioned in a certain way, seems to have been used on the ER Brits. In contrast, apart from the 9Fs, the WR had no experience of smoke deflectors - one would have thought in a unified national railway system, there would have been rather more cross fertilisation of experience and ideas than sometimes seemed to occur. The WR hand holds to me look somewhat ‘Heath Robinson’, and the brass adornments make them look even more so!! Great that we have the variations to debate though. Ive always been interested in the plan for more Clans, and particularly the Southern ones - presumably the rebuilding of the Bullied Light Pacifics in the shorter term, along with the ongoing electrification and Modernisation Plan elements removed the need for these. The route availability was surely the advantage of the Clans, which no doubt, if built would have appeared on the West of Exeter SR (until 1963) routes.

I think it was the original ER allocated locos which had the two hand hold without handrail, version of the smoke deflector retro fitted. These appear to have been based on the previous designs of hand hold used on Royal Scot and Coronation class smoke deflectors. The reasoning behind Swindon’s ‘redesign of the wheel’ for hand holds on WR allocated Britannias, in what appears to be a rather extravagant way (especially with the version with brass edged hand holds), was discussed in another thread and a theory put forward it may have been an apprentice project or similar. The ScR based Clans and Brits retained the standard smoke deflectors with hand rails (as did all 9Fs, even WR and ER allocated ones).

The Hornby 9F is really good - although not good enough to tempt some owners of Bachmann ones as although it corrects some of the previous (vociferous) complaints (especially wheel spacing) as the Bachmann is a good model. The new Hornby version is a v smooth runner (despite Sam’s review) and looks great. As far as the Hornby Black 5 is concerned, the updated versions have yet to appear - however from description and EP photos, they look good and the Caprotti will be very interesting. It would be good if Accurascale takes on an 82/83/84 (AL2-4) electric. My personal preferences are 84 or 83 in that order - based purely on aesthetics! Followed by an AM10 (310)!!

As a regular domestic user of St Pancras International pre 2019, and occasional one since, using mostly South Eastern High Speed and sometimes transferring between that and EMR, Thameslink and more frequently to the Underground, occasional on foot to Euston, I don’t recall ever seeing congestion anywhere in the station except at the South Eastern or EMR barriers. Most certainly not for Eurostar. However, I used the station on one occasion about a year ago and took the wrong turning from the underground, emerging into the east side of the concourse at the Euston Road end - I was astonished to see a queue from Eurostar across the front of all the retail premises and the entire length of the east side, along the south side of the ticket office concourse, and out and back down the west side of the road outside. Apart from Covid, from which passenger numbers have, from what I’ve read, recovered to say max 70-80% of previous levels, only one thing has happened since then that would affect throughput in such a way. Of course this was predicted, along with chaos at Dover and everywhere else that people need to cross our newly taken control of borders (and poo pooed as scaremongering by fellas who’ve turned their attention now to prestige banks). In order to manage what appears to be a predicted regular occurrence, there are barriers in place along the sections I’ve mentioned. Presumably St Pancras International was never designed to have a non EU border in it and the arrangements now required cause the problem. That there’s little opportunity to increase international capacity is hardly surprising and it shouldn’t be forgotten that St Pancras is a major domestic interchange station rather than the Cinderella it used to be when purely the southern terminus of the MML.

I would hazard a guess these regional specific lamps died gradually at the end of the steam age on WR (and the areas of LMR affected) combined with the larger scale inter-regional transfers which occurred after 1966 (results of first stages of the National Traction Plan). This will have affected DMUs as well with the ScR transfers of class 116 from 1966, W55000 and the four rail buses at the beginning of 1967. I would agree that the addition of the lower right mounted standard lamp iron would be much more convenient to use as well. It remains to be seen how accurate the lamp irons are on the pre TOPS WR models, when these arrive (end of year/early next?).

Thanks @Phil Bullock - yet another modification on some locos!! Thankfully the ones I’ve ordered from Accurascale (D6600 and D699x) were WR up to a point past the era I’m after (1967-9)!! Not sure if they’d been ‘molested’ by then…. hopefully not!

The WR lost a good number of these class 37 locos to the NER and ScR in 1966 (around 50+ in the D6819 onwards range and a few D690x) - does anyone know if those regions had to have lamp irons (well one at least on each loco) altered to enable the standard BR pattern tail lamp to be carried running ld?

The fact the (curved) windscreens haven’t popped out perhaps indicates the level of vibration subjected in normal operation to the poor unfortunates who had to drive these in the early days!! (Whole class modified to flat windscreens by supplier along with engine mods to correct issues at the beginning of the 60s).

Interesting photos - however I think it’s Charlemont Crossing (a couple of miles south east of the south eastern end of Bescot yard). There was not a junction at Newton Road (nearest are Perry Barr North or the south east end of Bescot yard). The crossing was closed subsequently to vehicular traffic - in any case during winter months the approach roads from each direction were impassable regularly owing to flooding. In the photos, that is the M5/M6 junction south to north west link - in the top photo, the second road bridge is the south to north east link. A very noisy location with not only road noise but the constant thumping of HGVs over the viaduct expansion joints.

The problem with your analysis here, whilst maybe correct in the taxation of the bottom 50%, does not take account of the fact that their average income is a fraction of the upper 50%. And the top 1% earn absolutely vastly more than the average of the upper 50% - look at the income figures - there’s gross inequality!!! We have become a generally low income economy - the top 20%-25% earn the majority of the total income! Sorry for the thread drift.