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The answer is both The answer is both! PG016B - these were grey with a mustard side panel (so similar to the Yeoman livery) PG003A, PG004A, PG013D, PG005B, PG006B, PG013B - mustard Which build code are you modelling? Have a look at my Whatley thread or the Mendip Industrials thread for some good photos of rakes that include both livery variants. Page 2 of Mendip Industrials shows a rake headed up by a PG016B. Guy

Hi Simon, I never saw a 59 on the tipplers in VTG livery. I think this is because the tipplers were primarily used for spot hires on non-stone purposes. Take a look at my album on Flickr for shots of the VTG wagons with DBS 66. These wagons were being used on Crossrail spoil trains at the time so 66s were order of the day. So if you are after a loco to go with your VTG tipplers circa 2013, go for a DBS red 66. Guy This shot was taken a week earlier in the same location. It's a DBS 59 but on Mendip Stone (so not the VTG tipplers but proof that they DBS red 59s did exist at the same time as them): Guy

The Yeoman wagons weather up nicely. Here's a few shots of them during a Yeoman 'takeover' on Whatley. There is still work to do with powders to get the dust on the interior from the stone load. Interiors are done with artists acrylics whilst the exteriors are three layers: scratches are done with artists oil paints and a cocktail stick, followed by a grey/brown enamel wash followed by air-brushed Tamiya flat earth / flat yellow mixture. The Tamiya mixture was also applied as a wash to the under frame. I was aiming for this effect from Paul Bartlett's site (https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/yeomantipplerpta/h38ba7c0f). I'm itching to set the layout up now and video a rake going round. They should look very good paired up with the later 'Big Y' livery hoppers once they are out! Cheers, Guy Guy

Some really nice shots there again Robin. Very interesting to see the early photos of Pride of Whatley. I've got a Judith Edge kit that's been sitting on my workbench for the past 10 years that needs making up. The only problem is that this loco is unique and has some considerable detail differences from the other Steelman locos that I'd like to reflect in the build. There has been so much on my workbench over the Christmas period, I don't really know where to begin! There has been something of a Yeoman 'take-over' on Whatley recently so I thought I'd start with what is currently on the workbench and then work backwards. I know that there is an impending release by Dapol, but I thought that I should finish the Intercity Models JHA that I have had kicking around the workshop for the past year or two. I bought a stack of Intercity Models kits from a fellow DEMU member a couple of years ago and I got the main body completed on one of them back in 2019. The first thing I will say about the kits is that they finish up into really lovely models, as attested by the finished example that you can see in the photo below that was assembled by DEMU member Jeremy Davison. Looking at the Dapol model (which is superb in many ways) I'd say that the level of detail is definitely comparable and probably better than the Dapol model in several areas (especially around the hopper doors). That said, there are also shortcomings of the kit (but not many!) most noticeably the recessed D-shaped panel with the handbrake wheel is not deep enough. The reason that I bought the kits initially was to try and get a bit closer to the process of etched kit construction and hopefully to learn a bit more about etched kit design in order to be able to feedback to my own projects (e.g. the PGA PG013E kit I am developing that you can see a styrene version of in the pic below). Well, what have I learned? By the time that this kit is fully finished it will have taken me close to 100 hours of modelling time. Sadly, as much as I have enjoyed it, this is just too much for a single item of stock that needs to run in rakes of 20-odd vehicles. It's fine for a shunter or one-off item but for mass-produced vehicles it isn't going to work. This is the principle reason why I have switched to Styrene and 3D printing for the PGA kit. The speed of assembly is just much, much quicker. The second thing that I have learned is that when joining two plates together, whilst through-tab construction is strong, it requires so much cleaning up that I don't think there is any advantage to it. In most cases you can get away with a half etched line on one part, that the edge of the second part slots into and a fillet of solder can be run along the join. There is no way that I would now design a kit using this method of construction. Especially not one that needs making up in bulk. And finally, the last thing that I have learned from this (which I probably already knew) is that whilst it is possible to fabricate absolutely everything using etched brass it is not always desirable. I cite the bogie as an example of this. It's absolutely beautiful with loads of separately fitted brass bits and bobs. But it would be so much better if it just had cast cosmetic side frames on a working sprung 'inner' (as per Stenson Models excellent range of brass bogies). It has taken me a full weekend and two evenings to assemble the pair from all of the bits and after all of that I found that the instructions call for you to 'prise apart the sides and insert the wheelsets'. Of course, the soldered up bogies are far too rigid to do this without distorting them. It was then very difficult to 'fettle' the running without further recourse to distorting the shape. Yup... lots learned about how to engineer a model bogie! I think the key point is that function is sometimes more important than form and having a bogie run well and that can be reasonably easily disassembled for fettling is more important than having one that is engineered as per the prototype. So why bother? Well, I had gotten far enough with the kit that it seemed sensible to finish it off and have a pair of outers that I can run with the forthcoming Dapol release. To that end, I will attempt to colour match to the Dapol wagons which might require me to re-paint and finish Jeremy's excellent model (I feel really bad about this as he has done such an amazing job on it). It will probably require me to sort out a set of transfers for the wagon as well as I think the Fox ones have the wrong blue (too light). I think I have most of the artwork that I need though from the transfers that I did for the O&K boxes for this though. Phew, that was a long update. More to follow on the other subjects soon. Guy

It's a reasonable list of the detail differences. If you want a full table of these and are a member of DEMU, we have written them up in table-form on the DEMU wiki (https://forum.demu.org.uk/wiki/index.php?title=British_Rail_Class_56). I agree, there are almost three main cab variants: Romanian (0-30), Early Doncaster (031-055) and Late Doncaster/Crewe (056-135) although the only difference between Romanian and Early Doncaster cabs are the side windows (as you point out). What you left off the list is that 56031 and 032 are unique in having the early Doncaster cab but with the full buffer beam cowling (as per the Romanian locos). So it's more of an evolution in the design than anything. The detail differences go beyond just the cabs: there are also differences in cab door handrail lengths/patterns as well as the side grilles (already mentioned). It's odd that Hornby have shown us photos with a mish-mash of details as they have more-or-less got the details spot on in the past. The only release that I can remember that wasn't 100% spot-on was 032 where they omitted the lower part of the bufferbeam cowling (but my interest is late 80s so I can't really comment on the later body mods). Guy

I'm confused? The Stenson Bogies come with everything you need to mount them to the Lima wagons at the correct height. From memory, this involved melting a bolt into the Lima boss using MEK. Perhaps that's only the sprung bogies and not the rigid ones? Guy

I hadn’t noticed the square grill mesh and round buffers. Oh dear, what a mish mash of details. Not correct for either loco. Guy

Yes, on the picture it looks like they’ve used the early Doncaster cab for both releases but technically 56086 should have the later style Doncaster cab without the upper buffer beam cowling. The other detail differences would require an end on view to confirm. As Roy mentioned, neither release is supposed to be a Romanian example (01-30) so this is irrelevant. Although I would very much like A Romanian to do 56001 Whatley! Guy

The pick-ups are on 4 axles (2 per bogie). Guy

Some great work there Jo. I particularly like 17901 which is on my hit list in 4mm. I have a drawing for it somewhere but maybe I should ask you to scale it to 4mm. I have a Cameo cutter if you'd be willing? JFAs next to mix in with them? I've got bogged down with KPAs, PGAs and weathering Accurascale PTAs recently but more ARC bogie hoppers are coming close to the top of the list. Guy

There's a bit more work to do on both of these (mostly weathering) but I couldn't resist putting up a couple of photos as part of the current Yeoman 'takeover' on Whatley. Guy

That's what I thought at first but now I'm not so sure. This has the feel of announcing something a little early that had probably been planned for a while. Guy

Great info. Thanks both. So in the scheme of things, probably not all that hard to convert to a 45/1 but a little more involved than just adding ETH gear. Leading axle aside, I'm guessing that the Bachmann centre axle (of the three driven axles on the prototype) has massive side-play to accommodate such a long wheelbase (around a foot further between axles than Co-Cos such as 37, 47, 50 etc). Useful reference here: http://www.clag.org.uk/wheelbase.html. Guy

What would be needed to convert a Bachmann model to a 45/1? ETH gear. Anything else? Should be easy, shouldn't it? As Mick says, it's that dangerous 'm' word! Guy

Thanks both (Ghost and ADB) for your thoughts on the differences between the models. Nobody has mentioned the incorrect curve of the roof on the Heljan model and the effect that this has on the front cab windows and the ‘face’ of the loco. I was curious to see what the perceived benefits of the Heljan model are given these facts. Considering It’s going to cost nearly 50% more than the Bachmann model (after discounts) and given the lack of detail on the body side grilles, I can’t see a convincing argument for buying one over the Bachmann offering at the moment. The Bachmann model seems like a better base from which to create something accurate. Pipes and brackets are easy to add. Correcting the shape is a lot harder! Which model will convert better to EM/P4 I wonder? I’m not sure that a horizontally sliding leading axle would work well in P4 as there might not be enough room between the frames. Bo-Bo drive might also lend itself better to converting too. Guy

What do you think is missing that Hejan have included? It’s not a 45/1 so ETH/ETS wouldn’t have been fitted. Guy

Well, I’m using double headed 56s at the moment which is working reasonably well but their availability is atrocious. If only I had something that was as reliable as the GM switcher I recently acquired. Still, I’ve just ordered some aluminium bodied hoppers from Procor that should be turning up any day now which should allow me to increase loads whilst retaining the same axle loading. Not sure I can do away with PGAs just yet though...

They used to. Some bloke called Dave from memory. Whatever happened to him? Seriously though, they have a ‘good egg’ with Andy involved so let’s all be patient a bit longer. I think they genuinely want to get this one right so credit to them. Hopefully not too much longer to wait. I’ve almost resigned myself to repainting the ARC mustard now whatever shade it arrives as. Yellow is clearly a tough colour to get right. Guy

That river is some of the best modelling that I've seen this year. I'm not surprised that you're very pleased with it! Well done. Guy

This is August 89 and the front wagon has been rebranded. Interestingly that’s the one off prototype JHA in the background. Guy

At some point between 1988 and 1992. I think 88/89 but just looking for proof for you. Guy

When you look at photos, a lot of it is down to the lighting. Look at how the Phoenix Precision yellow (second, my photo) looks the same as the bright yellow of Mark Saunder's photo of the prototype under the right lighting conditions. Sorry chaps, but I'm still not convinced that the colour that you have had them painted is the same as Mark's photo either. Sorry. This is as close a 3-way comparison under the same lighting conditions as I can manage. Guy

Some examples of rakes where you can see one or two lighter wagons amongst the standard mustard ones. Wagons 1,2 and 7 are lighter. Wagons 2 and 3rd from the end are lighter: 7th wagon is lighter: First two and 11th are lighter:

Hi Fran, I've not been looking at photos of mustard wagons for the last 10 years not to realise there were variations. I think you are right, they did vary in colour but I'm not sure that the 'lighter' example that you cite above is the most common unfortunately. The wagons were repainted throughout their lives and at one point (about the time they got re-branded from Procor to CAIB), quite a light colour of yellow was used on a few wagons (such as Mark's photo that you posted above). If you have a wide sample of different colours you would pick the median. Sadly I think you have chosen an outlier. Here's another example of a 'clean' CAIB-era wagon from Hugh Searle (some of the best photos I've seen of mendip wagons) from his excellent 'Mendips Aggregates' album. I include my comparison shot again so you can see these side by side. Guy