Hornby cuts model shops' allocations of items due summer 2022

[MidlandRed]

3 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Maybe some of us - who still have such establishments available to them - just want to buy bigger ticket items from our 'local' retailers alongside things like tins of paint, rail joiners, magazines, books, rolling stock, and kits, in order to help support their business and cash flow?

 

I currently have several Rapido items, including a loco. order with my most 'local' retailer - only one hour's drive away.  If Hornby were to introduce something that is appropriate to my modelling interests it would eithetr be ordered from him or my other 'local' retailer who is actually several (quite large) counties away.

Yeah I think this is a laudable approach - however I seem to remember this time last year a similar issue occurred with Hornby whereby not all retailer’s orders were fulfilled - indeed I recall one proud independent model shop in NW Kent/SE London taking delivery of one HD MN Pacific during the television series on Hornby - exclaiming - oh, there’s only one! 

 

On this basis I ordered direct to avoid a similar situation with items I wanted. I’ll reserve judgement on how well or otherwise the process works when I receive the models ordered. Meanwhile I continue to order other models through retailers where available (my presumption being that for some Hornby models, this option is in reality, not available - or if it is it’s a bit of a lottery whether you can receive successfully the models you’re after). 

[MidlandRed]

29 minutes ago, F-UnitMad said:

This made me laugh, to be honest. How does one boycott products that you can't get hold of anyway??

I think you can by not ordering them direct when they’re available by that method, whilst also being outraged on social media 😀

Edited July 14, 2022 by MidlandRed

[eldomtom2]

It is perhaps worth remembering that companies only care about bad PR to the extent it affects sales. If you complain but still buy anyway...

[MikeB]

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

So it would seem that Hornby - exactly like my most local model shop -  somehow test any and every loco I buy in my presence to ensure that it is functioning correctly' and has all parts present before I even pay for it.  Or if there is a problem with a loco etc from my rather less local retailer it is exchanged virtually by return of post if I encounter a problem with it.  It is reassuring to learn that Hornby, or rather their contractor. also offer a similar level of service although past posts on RMweb suggest this is not always (ever?) the case.

 

 if Hornby are really serious about having a direct sales operation for model railways, particularly locos, they need to start by looking at how it is done by the current online/mail order retailers, and other manufacturers/commissioners.  It is an area where detail, detail, detail can really make a significant difference.

 

Sorry to be  a tad cynical but the retailers I deal with offer a level of service and a range of model railway/railway related items which puts Hornby to shame even when it's offering everything its catalogue for direct sale.  I will not put their continuation in business at risk simply to buy direct from - in this instance - Hornby when the results can be far worse should there be any problem with the item I buy.  It really is that simple for me because I have no wish to cut off my nose to spite my face.

I don't disagree.  The large and/or successful online retailers have invested in, for example,  IT which works, packaging that protects items in transit and experienced / trained staff who actually  answer emails and phone calls and can sort out enquiries, changes or problems.  A public company such as Hornby may be driven more by the short term financial results of the business compared with a private company owned by individuals prepared to invest time, thought  and money to provide excellent customer service and a longer term future.

Edited July 14, 2022 by MikeB

[No Decorum]

6 hours ago, SHMD said:

 

((I also hope that at the next exhibition they go to, and have pre ordered let's say 20 square meters of space, when they get there they are just allocated 1 meter squared - and see how they like it / can run a business,))

 

Brilliant! 😆

[Phil Parker]

4 hours ago, F-UnitMad said:

This made me laugh, to be honest. How does one boycott products that you can't get hold of anyway??

 

If all you want is "a loco" and you aren't fussed which one, then boycotting a manufacturer is possible. But if you want a specific loco, and only one manufacturer makes it, then you have a bigger decision to make. My guess is that it's rare for the first run of anything not to sell out, so boycott all you like, someone else is waiting to snaffle a shiny box and add it to their cupboard.

[Phil Parker]

5 hours ago, jjb1970 said:

This has probably been the big debate in retail for over twenty years, and there are businesses who seem to do pretty well by adopting a direct sales model. I think the problem with Hornby is they want to develop their direct sales model while still expecting retailers to buy stock in the conventional way and act as a store front. Whether or not I agree or not I can see the logic of moving to direct sales, it might work or it might not but clearly there is an argument for it (just as there is a counter argument).

 

They don't just need the stores to act as a store front, they need them to sell all the other bits that are required to build a model railway. My argument for buying from my local shop is that they need to shift some big-ticket items in order to stay open when I want other stuff. No shop can exist on track pins and the odd pot of paint.

[F-UnitMad]

1 minute ago, Phil Parker said:

boycott all you like,

I don't boycott Hornby at all, I just don't buy anything they produce.

 

Mainly as I don't model in 4mm scale..... 😉

[stewartingram]

I do wonder if there are financial reasons behind this - Hornby not being able, for some reason, to pay for the full production, and then rationing what they do get with their own direct sales? Their shouldn't be a shortage of cash, but who knows?

[ruggedpeak]

We've been through this cycle before, quite why Hornby are pursuing the less than successful policies of the previous management is unclear.

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, stewartingram said:

I do wonder if there are financial reasons behind this - Hornby not being able, for some reason, to pay for the full production, and then rationing what they do get with their own direct sales? Their shouldn't be a shortage of cash, but who knows?

Something to do with the finance side of things is, I suppose, yet another thing to add to the list.  But what we don't know - apart from one recent example - is how many models they buy in a run of a new item.  f they are doing multiple liveries/variants on a basic theme for their first run they could well be running fewer than 500 of some of those variants - yes, some factories will accept that provided they are part of a larger total run.  The key then is identifying what will be most popular = aka the top seller - and making sure you make enough of those but then producing fewer of some variants.  But allocation suggests they might not be doing even that.

 

But even if they - logically in my opinion - do exactly that why do they finish up giving retailers 'allocations' six months after they placed their order,  Even if you're not making very many of something for whatever reason surely they should only be selling each model once?  What kind of system allows a company to sell 36 (to use recent example) of something twice over (assuming they actually made it in the first place)?

[Phil Parker]

3 hours ago, F-UnitMad said:

I don't boycott Hornby at all, I just don't buy anything they produce.

 

Mainly as I don't model in 4mm scale..... 😉

 

It's not all about you...

[mdvle]

13 hours ago, MikeB said:

However, I've been thinking about pre-orders and retailers.  Why pre-order from a retailer and not the manufacturer?  What added value does the retailer offer the customer? 

 

The ability to combine products from multiple manufacturers into one shipment to save shipping costs.

 

To test the product first.

 

To advise you of announced products that may interest you based on your shopping habits that you may be unaware of.

 

etc.

 

 

13 hours ago, MikeB said:

The traditional role of a shop having inventory and providing the opportunity to discover, see and possibly try before purchase is not relevant for many people since the lack of local model shops in many areas means mail order is the norm.

 

Mail order is a large business, but calling it the norm is misleading in that there is still a lot of physical sales.

 

And there are still a lot of people who like to see something in person before buying.

 

As for inventory, yes it can be important - you want that item released 9 months ago that is sold out at Accurascale, Rapido, etc?  There may well be a retailer with stock.

 

13 hours ago, MikeB said:

In the event of problems, will a retailer be more helpful or will the item need to go back to the manufacturer anyway for repair or replacement?

 

How much is your time worth?  It can often be easier to ship it to the retailer and then let them deal with the hassles of dealing with a warranty repair.

 

13 hours ago, MikeB said:

On line and direct sales  are growing everywhere (books, groceries, clothes, cars, e-Bay) where customers know what they want and are prepared to buy items without seeing the physical item first, why are model railways different? 

 

They aren't - but you are confusing online sales with buying from the importer/manufacturer when most online sales are through a retailer - whether it be a large company like Amazon or a small corner shop selling on eBay.

[jjb1970]

7 hours ago, Phil Parker said:

 

They don't just need the stores to act as a store front, they need them to sell all the other bits that are required to build a model railway. My argument for buying from my local shop is that they need to shift some big-ticket items in order to stay open when I want other stuff. No shop can exist on track pins and the odd pot of paint.

 

Personally I want physical retailers to remain open as I like to visit model shops and given the choice I would buy my stuff from a physical shop if it was a reasonable option. But do they need them to offer small items? Most of the online retailers offer a full range of products to remote customers down to the smallest items, although it is expensive if you only need one small item if you bundle with other things the postage isn't really an issue.

A point already made is that direct selling is not synonymous with online, and most online sales are managed by resellers/retailers. I suspect shops like Rails, Hattons and Kernow need their online business to sustain themselves, and the threat to small local hobby shops has been the bigger shops offering mail order and eating the cake for decades. The fundamental difference is that if a local shop loses customers to an online retailer they're losing them to a competitor which is an inherent risk in business, if they lose them to xyz.com when they're an authorised agent for xyz then they're losing customers to their supplier, which begs the question of why have an agreement with them and stock any of their stuff? If they sell enough of xyz to make it profitable or can't exist without xyz then they will swallow emotion and press on, but that's a commercial decision and it xyz would be taking a big risk if they became complacent and assumed themselves to be essential to retailers. Hattons survived without Bachmann and Rails seem to be doing OK without Hornby.

Attitudes to online shopping have been steadily evolving and like anything are never fixed. In England a lot of our neighbours had given up going to the supermarket and had everything delivered, and if they forgot anything there was a Tesco Express that sold the sort of stuff you might need in a hurry. I never went down that path as with fruit, vegetables, and meat I like to select when I buy (not all fruits are equal) but delivery sales now seem a decent part of the business for supermarkets. I think there is a psychological element, people may enjoy visiting shops and like the idea of a shop but if they find themselves ordering online for one category of goods I'm guessing it makes it a lot easier to consider buying other stuff online. Something very noticeable in Singapore is that some shopping malls are now largely food and beverage malls and the main footfall is people going for reasons other than browsing and shopping (doctors surgeries, cinemas and day care centres are also often in malls). 

I know this is a very meandering post which doesn't say much but I don't think anyone can really predict the future of retail. My best guess is the hybrid model of box shifter hobby stores (and I do not attach any negative connotation to 'box shifter', those shops do a fantastic job) will be the norm, but I can see direct sales increasing. I think Hornby could go direct sales only, or remain a supplier to retailers but what I don't think is viable in the long term is the current model which wants to keep retailers for the small stuff while pulling the rug away. I find something very impressive in the efficiency of the box shifters and those suppliers who do direct sales well, we take it for granted that we just order with all the information of real time inventory management and stuff appears at our door, often the next day. I got an e-mail from Accurascale on Tuesday they'd shipped my Deltic, this morning I'm following the progress of a DHL delivery van around Singapore as it gets closer, I find that amazing, over six and a half thousand miles and it's not much slower than if I ordered from the town down the road.

[Robin Brasher]

12 hours ago, Phil Parker said:

 

They don't just need the stores to act as a store front, they need them to sell all the other bits that are required to build a model railway. My argument for buying from my local shop is that they need to shift some big-ticket items in order to stay open when I want other stuff. No shop can exist on track pins and the odd pot of paint.

Local model shops cannot shift Hornby big -ticket items if Hornby does not supply enough of these items to the shops.

[jjb1970]

13 minutes ago, Robin Brasher said:

Local model shops cannot shift Hornby big -ticket items if Hornby does not supply enough of these items to the shops.

 

Manufacturer really shouldn't accept orders for product without a reasonable expectation they will fulfill those orders. The situation we see with Hornby puts retailers and customers in a dreadful position. Retailers have my complete sympathy for the predicament they end up in if they have ten orders and receive one product. In a way it might be better to get none as that would avoid the minefield of deciding who gets one and everything that might go with it. And for customers I hope they understand the situation and refrain from blaming the retailer but it is annoying. The pre-order concept only works if an order is an order. If a pre-order is just a wish which we hope might be fulfilled then why order from a retailer when there's a higher probability of getting the item by ordering from Hornby? This isn't even about the merits of direct sales vs a retailer network from a customer perspective, it's just a question of making a judgement over whether or not a seller will fulfill an order. 

I have to stress that I am not anti- Hornby, but any supplier needs to be able to manage an ordering system.

[Dunsignalling]

51 minutes ago, Robin Brasher said:

Local model shops cannot shift Hornby big -ticket items if Hornby does not supply enough of these items to the shops.

Precisely, which is why those running local model shops need to prepare now, to ensure their businesses can survive and thrive shorn of a Hornby element. Better to do it at a time of their own choosing than turning a blind eye to the warning signs until it's too late.

 

That will be necessary at some point, either through Hornby achieving its clearly signalled aim of direct selling all major items in-house, or the company managing to run itself off the road again. 

 

Whilst treating retailers like dirt, Hornby expect them to stock smaller, relatively unremunerative, items that are (or will become) unfeasibly expensive if obtained through Hornby's rather clunky direct sales operation. As that comes to dominate, expect it to become ever more grandiose....

 

It's worth bearing in mind that almost none of those add-on items could not be replaced on model shop shelves with something more individual from a choice of small suppliers.  

 

John

Edited July 15, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[No Decorum]

14 hours ago, Phil Parker said:

 

If all you want is "a loco" and you aren't fussed which one, then boycotting a manufacturer is possible. But if you want a specific loco, and only one manufacturer makes it, then you have a bigger decision to make. My guess is that it's rare for the first run of anything not to sell out, so boycott all you like, someone else is waiting to snaffle a shiny box and add it to their cupboard.

That’s a very good point. I heartily dislike Hornby’s treatment of retailers but I would still buy a particular locomotive I want from Hornby if Hornby was the only manufacturer producing one. Unfortunately, Hornby has that angle covered too. I was interested in quite a few Hornby products but I have declined to buy them because of their shortcomings. For example, the 91s derail, the LNER IETs have light bleed and the APT has ugly capacitors which have been known to melt roofs. Other examples I have bought, such as a Thompson Pacific, I probably would have bought despite its shortcomings but the finish on the Lord Nelson is so poor that I wish I hadn’t bothered with it. It isn’t that Hornby items are cheap. For the price they are, is it too much to expect that we get a decent product? Hornby could do a lot worse than to start reading RMweb and act to deal with the shortcomings of its models instead of pumping out propaganda. I may seem to be harsh but I haven’t a bias against Hornby – my criticisms are because of my own experiences and those of other RMweb members.

[F-UnitMad]

11 hours ago, Phil Parker said:

 

It's not all about you...

Awwww.... ☹

 

🤣🤣🤣👍👍

[Covkid]

11 hours ago, Phil Parker said:

 

It's not all about you...

With respect Phil.  It is all about the customer - "the customer is king" and all that. 

IMHO the people from Margate need a trip over to Ireland to relearn their trade.

If their budget doesn't stretch to ireland they could try a unit in Staplehurst in Kent, but I sense relations might be a little frosty !!!  

[The Stationmaster]

I'm not so sure if it is online selling by some retailers (not all are 'big') that helped end the lives of some shops but far more likely the very deep discounting which one or two used to indulge in.  That was supported by a sales modus operandi which relied on volume to enable prices on various items, especially locos , to be cut to the bone.  I know of other retailers who bought some of  those bare bone profit locos and then made a deceny profit by retailing the item at RRP or even at their own usual level of discount.  

 

Fortunately that era ended and restored some stability to the hobby but it did leave some (quite a lot actually)  folk with very distorted ideas of the real price of model railways.    Bricks & mortar shops were also to some extent damaged, and occasionally killed off, by one of Hornby's own past policies where their then wholesaler was prepared to sell stock to anybody and didn't require them to have a proper shop - hence even more discounted pricing from people running their business as a sideline from their real job and working out of their garden shed or living room.  There were obviously other factors - retirement and no one to take on the business and the ever spiralling costs of running a 'High Street' retail outlet.

 

But most of those are history - Hornby (the current regime) did the hobby a favour  by ceasing to supply model railways through the wholesaler and they + Bachmann effectively killed deep discounting - so they're not all bad.   But now we are getting the opposite from Hornby with the potential consequences to a retailer of failing to supply what they have ordered in the way of big ticket items while still expecting them to sell low ticket items with a slow rate of turnover.   That can present a serious threat to those retailers who have not been able to diversify what they offer as well as damaging their reputation by failing to meet orders which have been placed with them.

[Enterprisingwestern]

I reckon Gerald Ratner is working inside Hornby.

 

Mike.

[Dunsignalling]

Whilst I have no desire (as yet!) for Hornby to fail, the OO r-t-r sector in which they operate nowadays has enough participants who could fairly readily make up for the loss should Hornby indulge in another bout of self-destruction.

 

Hornby commission models from the factories in China just as the other "manufacturers" (including some retailers) do, and perform the design and marketing functions in-house. Were Hornby to disappear, the production capacity would not. It would become available to their rivals or, who knows, perhaps those who run the factories themselves. They have presumably built up a fair knowledge of British prototypes over the past couple of decades....

 

The "Hornby only" diehards and those who know no better would only be temporarily inconvenienced because the name would inevitably pass to someone else who wanted to become "the" model train-maker....

 

My advice to Hornby is to stop trying to retain a position in the market from which you have, in reality, already slipped. Do a bit less, do it better, and properly supply your superb network of dealers with what they know they can sell on your behalf, evidently better than you do.  Ideally before half of them turn their backs on you out of sheer frustration.

 

The UK model railway market seems (perhaps counter-intuitively) to be growing in value, though I suspect that is because existing customers have been buying more rather than there having been significant growth in the customer-base. Those customers are ever more drawn to quality but some of Hornby's recent models haven't fully lived up to their expectations. It's clearly a lucrative business, or new entrants wouldn't be drawn to it. Hornby need to focus on the weight of their slice of the cake, rather than worrying about the proportion of the cake it represents....

 

John 

 

 

Edited July 15, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[tommyliam021]

Let’s not forget that even today a lot of the Hornby catalogue consists of items previously tooled by manufacturers other than themselves. In the eventuality that the big H were to go down I imagine that the other manufacturers would simply purchase the toolings for their own ranges, hopefully with better QC.

[Phil Parker]

3 hours ago, Covkid said:

With respect Phil.  It is all about the customer - "the customer is king" and all that. 

 

My comment "It's not all about you was in response to.

 

19 hours ago, F-UnitMad said:

I don't boycott Hornby at all, I just don't buy anything they produce.

 

Mainly as I don't model in 4mm scale..... 😉

 

Not quite sure why you then need to twist this into a pop at me, after all I never said it wasn't about the customer, I'm actually saying it's about more then one person, but there you go.