45 ton Ransomes Crane

[Neil]

I think the issue of the price increase over the estimated cost and the question of whether it represents a fair price for what it is are red herrings. The real issue is whether it will sell at the price it looks set to be. In all honesty I don't know but I had a glimpse of what might happen last night. A couple of my friends were looking forward to the crane, both intended to buy one. With the price now north of £200 one will be buying, the other not. Both recognise that it will be a stunning model and represents fair value but one can afford it and the other struggles to justify such a large single purchase. With a crane not being a core item for many peoples layouts I could see others following the 'nice but do I really need one' train of logic when it comes time to open up the piggy bank.

 

Edit: I believe Hornby tapped into the polar opposite of this with the initial batch of Pecketts, 'don't need it but at a reasonable £80 who could resist such a lovely thing'.

Edited January 12, 2018 by Neil

[Dunsignalling]

I wonder how you define "substantially" and what tolerance of accuracy you are prepared to accept.

 

DS1580 is visually very similar to DS1560 and DS1561 to the extent that very, very few people would spot the differences.

 

The principal (and most noticeable) differences are these (working from memory, so I may miss some trivia):-

 

1) DS1580 has outside steam chests with valves operated by rocking levers, the DS1560 and DS1561 have the steam chests inside the crab. In this respect, DS1580 matches the two cranes supplied to the LNER by the MoS and therefore the Bachmann model will be available in a form with the correct cylinders, albeit not in a Southern form.

 

2) DS1580 (and the seven MoS cranes which preceded it) has hydraulic loading gear on the RBs instead of the mechanical arrangement on the first 8 cranes. This means that the upperworks of the RBs on the first 8 cranes differs somewhat from that on the last 8, and the differences are fairly conspicuous. In addition, DS1580's RBs were unique since the axleboxes used on both the RBs and jib runner differ from all other cranes. DS1580's RBs uniquely have reliefs in the solebars directly above the axleboxes, no other R&R 45-ton crane had these.

 

3) The first 8 cranes (i.e., the first two for the SR, the four GW, and the two LNER cranes) had Cochran Hopwood squat boilers fitted with GWR boiler fittings. The subsequent 8 cranes ( seven for the MoS, and DS1580 for the SR) had essentially the same boiler but with standard industrial fittings. The one significant result of this from the modelling perspective is that the safety valves are on the front right quadrant of the boiler on the first 8 cranes, and the back left quadrant on the last 8 cranes, and as a result the rear tailweight castings which form the back of the superstructure are quite different, with the last cranes having a large and conspicuous cut-out for the safety valves, a visual feature which is lacking completely on the earlier cranes. None of the Bachmann models (at least none announced sofar) have this tailweight and I suspect that it is very unlikely that it will be produced.

 

4) DS1580 has Bulleid-Firth-Brown wheels on the crane and RBs (but not the jib runner).

 

5) There are also detail differences between the jib runners.

 

6) All the cranes seemed to have the Stones Turbogenerators mounted in different places and they were moved around periodically too. It is likely that all were fitted after the cranes left R&R, which may explain the lack of standardisation. At this time, I have seen any evidence of where, or even if, the turbogenerator is to be fitted on the model.

 

There are other differences, mostly very minor (for example DS1580 was the only crane ot be fitted with a "RAPIER" plaque at the jib head) and of no consequence in the smaller scales.

 

So to summarise, the differences between DS1580 and the ealier SR pair are:

 

 

- Cylinders

- Relieving bogies

- Axleboxes

- Tailweight casting

- Wheels

- Jib runner

- Tubogenerator location

 

Despite this, the cranes are visually very similar and only someone with a considerable level of expertise would be able to tell the difference between one and another. Could you pass DS1560 or '61 off as DS1580? I bet you could if you wanted to! Who's to say that for a particular job DS1580 wasn't away for overhaul, statutory test, or repair, and one of the others was standing in for it?

Thanks, that provides a degree of clarity I hadn't been able to establish for myself.

 

Simple (?) question, on the basis of your information, which of the Bachmann cranes will be closest to DS1560 or 1561 in late-1950s to early-1960s condition? 

 

My own estimation was the Eastern Region one, 38-802, which is what I had provisionally pre-ordered but I then managed to confuse myself quite thoroughly.   

 

John

Edited January 12, 2018 by Dunsignalling

[MikeParkin65]

I think the issue of the price increase over the estimated cost and the question of whether it represents a fair price for what it is are red herrings. The real issue is whether it will sell at the price it looks set to be. In all honesty I don't know but I had a glimpse of what might happen last night. A couple of my friends were looking forward to the crane, both intended to buy one. With the price now north of £200 one will be buying, the other not. Both recognise that it will be a stunning model and represents fair value but one can afford it and the other struggles to justify such a large single purchase. With a crane not being a core item for many peoples layouts I could see others following the 'nice but do I really need one' train of logic when it comes time to open up the piggy bank.

 

Edit: I believe Hornby tapped into the polar opposite of this with the initial batch of Pecketts, 'don't need it but at a reasonable £80 who could resist such a lovely thing'.

A couple of years ago I was swithering over £60 for the Inspection coach on the same 'nice to have  but do I need one?' question. I succumbed in the end on the grounds it was 'only' £20 more than a coach was (at the time). In my mind the crane would be £120 to £150 ( and I wasn't expecting a working mechanism for that). North of £180 and I am afraid I am most definitely out of the market for one. Nice to have, don't need one and certainly not at that price. Sorry Bachmann (but the V2 and maroon portholes I do promise to buy

[Tim Dubya]

Right, I'm gonna commission you to supply and build an excellent wild boar models crane kit (sold out i know, bear with me) £160.00, say your going to charge me £10 per hour labour, very reasonable, eight hours build time, maybe more, £80, paint it and add transfers, materials inc glue paint etc, maybe £30 get it to run as well as the Bachmann model, so your gonna quote me £270. Can I get back to you.......

Exactly, a bargain!

[Black 5 Bear]

Exactly, a bargain!

 

 

Had the BDC been motorised/DCC ready, I would agree with you about it being a bargain.

However contrary to rumour and conjecture it isn't.

Granted it does have a working mechanism, this will probably be lost on the majority, appealing on the whole to the collector and in all probability never to be run.

Yes, it is a fantastic niche model, I personally don't believe Bachmann's claim that it will be a single run if they are to recoup all their costs. The inspection coach was allegidly a one off, this has so far been re-released in different liveries.

Time will only tell whether or not this is a success or not, personally I'll sit back and wait.If I miss out I miss out.

Edited January 12, 2018 by Black 5 Bear

[polybear]

I was rather hoping that the etched kit that Gordon Ashton (I think) was working on would materialise.  I believe an initial build appeared on Steffan Lewis' excellent Maindee East layout.  Sadly the kit never materialised; I believe Steffan Lewis has recently offered some Cranes (I'm guessing from the same stable) built on a commission basis (mentioned in MRJ) but definitely no kits would be available :(

[steve45]

The more you guys talk up the price point the more that Bachmann are likely to charge as they will make  a consensus that people are willing to pay that much. 

[craneman]

Bachmann has never, as far as I know, said there will only be a single production run. This seems to be a rumour originated on this forum and makes no sense.

 

Gordon Ashton's kit is a model of the 36 ton R&R cranes supplied to the GWR in 1908 and 1910 and as such would appeal to GWR/BR(W) modellers only. The original kit is very hard to find, is likely to cost in excess of £500 if you can find one, and has a few significant errors. There has been talk of a revised and improved version for over a decade now, it is to be hoped that this will one day appear.

 

Steffan Lewis of Maindy East fame also produced a very limited number of models of the GWR 36 tonners to special order. The are stunning, museum standard models, and I have never heard of one coming up for resale.

[Arthur]

Bachmann has never, as far as I know, said there will only be a single production run. This seems to be a rumour originated on this forum and makes no sense.

 

It is not a rumour because nobody is claiming that Bachmann has said this.

 

You may not like the idea of a single run, nonetheless it is a possibility.

 

It is reasoned speculation based on a consideration of costs, expected price and the numbers of prospective buyers.

 

If Bachmann price this model such that many prospective buyers drop out, as many are currently claiming they will, and the first run does not sell well, then it is hard to see a second run being viable. IF that is the case, then a single run makes perfect sense.

 

It may, even at £250.00, sell very well. I haven’t cancelled my pre-order for example. In this case, a second run makes equally perfect sense.

 

Neither you, nor I, know how well this model will sell. And neither do Bachmann because at this price it is testing the limits of the of the U.K. market.

 

.

Edited January 13, 2018 by Arthur

[craneman]

Re. Production runs, I was alluding to post #232 above and others earlier in this thread.

 

I agree that nobody knows how well this model will sell, nor how many production runs there will be, although I am pretty sure that there are those who know how many are planned. Time will tell, and I know what I think is likely.

[Mallard60022]

I wonder how you define "substantially" and what tolerance of accuracy you are prepared to accept.

 

DS1580 is visually very similar to DS1560 and DS1561 to the extent that very, very few people would spot the differences.

 

The principal (and most noticeable) differences are these (working from memory, so I may miss some trivia):-

 

1) DS1580 has outside steam chests with valves operated by rocking levers, the DS1560 and DS1561 have the steam chests inside the crab. In this respect, DS1580 matches the two cranes supplied to the LNER by the MoS and therefore the Bachmann model will be available in a form with the correct cylinders, albeit not in a Southern form.

 

2) DS1580 (and the seven MoS cranes which preceded it) has hydraulic loading gear on the RBs instead of the mechanical arrangement on the first 8 cranes. This means that the upperworks of the RBs on the first 8 cranes differs somewhat from that on the last 8, and the differences are fairly conspicuous. In addition, DS1580's RBs were unique since the axleboxes used on both the RBs and jib runner differ from all other cranes. DS1580's RBs uniquely have reliefs in the solebars directly above the axleboxes, no other R&R 45-ton crane had these.

 

3) The first 8 cranes (i.e., the first two for the SR, the four GW, and the two LNER cranes) had Cochran Hopwood squat boilers fitted with GWR boiler fittings. The subsequent 8 cranes ( seven for the MoS, and DS1580 for the SR) had essentially the same boiler but with standard industrial fittings. The one significant result of this from the modelling perspective is that the safety valves are on the front right quadrant of the boiler on the first 8 cranes, and the back left quadrant on the last 8 cranes, and as a result the rear tailweight castings which form the back of the superstructure are quite different, with the last cranes having a large and conspicuous cut-out for the safety valves, a visual feature which is lacking completely on the earlier cranes. None of the Bachmann models (at least none announced sofar) have this tailweight and I suspect that it is very unlikely that it will be produced.

 

4) DS1580 has Bulleid-Firth-Brown wheels on the crane and RBs (but not the jib runner).

 

5) There are also detail differences between the jib runners.

 

6) All the cranes seemed to have the Stones Turbogenerators mounted in different places and they were moved around periodically too. It is likely that all were fitted after the cranes left R&R, which may explain the lack of standardisation. At this time, I have seen any evidence of where, or even if, the turbogenerator is to be fitted on the model.

 

There are other differences, mostly very minor (for example DS1580 was the only crane ot be fitted with a "RAPIER" plaque at the jib head) and of no consequence in the smaller scales.

 

So to summarise, the differences between DS1580 and the ealier SR pair are:

 

 

- Cylinders

- Relieving bogies

- Axleboxes

- Tailweight casting

- Wheels

- Jib runner

- Tubogenerator location

 

Despite this, the cranes are visually very similar and only someone with a considerable level of expertise would be able to tell the difference between one and another. Could you pass DS1560 or '61 off as DS1580? I bet you could if you wanted to! Who's to say that for a particular job DS1580 wasn't away for overhaul, statutory test, or repair, and one of the others was standing in for it?

Oh bo##ocks.That's really great news and so helpful thanks, but now I have to go and try and negotiate that BOGOF again. Somehow I suspect I will get told that that is not possible any more. Pah!

Phil

[Mallard60022]

Right, I'm gonna commission you to supply and build an excellent wild boar models crane kit (sold out i know, bear with me) £160.00,  say your going to charge me £10 per hour labour, very reasonable, eight hours build time, maybe more, £80, paint it and add transfers, materials inc glue paint etc, maybe £30 get it to run as well as the Bachmann model, so your gonna quote me £270. Can I get back to you.......

£10 per hour.........................nope. As in a stupid game show, "Higher", "Higher".

A.Builder.

[Enterprisingwestern]

Re the further possible production runs.

I would imagine this will depend on how well the first batch sell, slowly and maybe that will be it, if they fly of the shelves, then there could be a hiatus, and a second batch.

 

Mike.

[Fantastic Mr Fox]

It is not a rumour because nobody is claiming that Bachmann has said this.

 

You may not like the idea of a single run, nonetheless it is a possibility.

 

It is reasoned speculation based on a consideration of costs, expected price and the numbers of prospective buyers.

 

If Bachmann price this model such that many prospective buyers drop out, as many are currently claiming they will, and the first run does not sell well, then it is hard to see a second run being viable. IF that is the case, then a single run makes perfect sense.

 

It may, even at £250.00, sell very well. I haven’t cancelled my pre-order for example. In this case, a second run makes equally perfect sense.

 

Neither you, nor I, know how well this model will sell. And neither do Bachmann because at this price it is testing the limits of the of the U.K. market.

 

.

would the tooling cost for this appealing model be the same or even higher than that of a Locomotive?

I think that is a question that Bachmann will know the answer too, and ultimatley decide how many releases and sales are required to get that tooling cost back.

If the cost of the tooling and an acceptable profit has been calculated within these first releases, then there may well never choose to gamble on the success of further re-issues.

[Clearwater]

Right, I'm gonna commission you to supply and build an excellent wild boar models crane kit (sold out i know, bear with me) £160.00, say your going to charge me £10 per hour labour, very reasonable, eight hours build time, maybe more, £80, paint it and add transfers, materials inc glue paint etc, maybe £30 get it to run as well as the Bachmann model, so your gonna quote me £270. Can I get back to you.......

Don’t forget VAT, corporation tax, shop margin, distribution costs,marketing costs, corporate overhead etc etc.

 

Even if £10/h and 8h assembler is reasonable, which I doubt, comparing a sole trader building a commission to a corporate is not really a valid comparison on pricing.

 

Edit: on Tony Wright’s thread, there was a discussion the other day comparing kit and rtr prices. Tony was suggesting that a detailed 4mm kit built to high standards would be into four figures. If this has the complexity of a loco, then I don’t see how you wouldn’t end up at a similar figure. To me rtr, is like comparing a high street suit with a full bespoke suit. The former can be very good and may fit you perfectly but the latter will be individually made, at a price, to fit your requirements.

 

David

Edited January 13, 2018 by Clearwater

[Pre Grouping fan]

would the tooling cost for this appealing model be the same or even higher than that of a Locomotive?

I think that is a question that Bachmann will know the answer too, and ultimatley decide how many releases and sales are required to get that tooling cost back.

If the cost of the tooling and an acceptable profit has been calculated within these first releases, then there may well never choose to gamble on the success of further re-issues.

I reckon slighty cheaper but likely not much in it than a loco. Probably less large parts to tool up with changeover parts in multiple like boilers, cabs, tender body's etc on a loco.

 

Possibly more smaller tools for the detailing etc. And unless the main crane chassis is metal there wont be a lot of diecast tooling either.

[phil gollin]

would the tooling cost for this appealing model be the same or even higher than that of a Locomotive?

I think that is a question that Bachmann will know the answer too, and ultimatley decide how many releases and sales are required to get that tooling cost back.

If the cost of the tooling and an acceptable profit has been calculated within these first releases, then there may well never choose to gamble on the success of further re-issues.

.

 

It is a little more complicated than that.

 

The designers chose to make the moulds such that many regional and time period models could be produced rather than just one or a very limited number - THAT had a cost impact.

 

The Marketing (?) people then chose which models to produce in this year's programme.  They chose to produce only 4 (basically one for each region) and chose (WHY ????) not to produce a Southern Region model (whether early or late crest) - which I find incredible, but that is what they decided.   Now the marketing people will have their reason(s), but I happen to think they are wrong IF they want to help recoup their costs quickly.

 

Obviously, they still have a Southern Region version (as well as a Western Region) version in reserve (possibly more with early/late crests and detail variations) - not to produce them to make more money would be poor commercial practice.

 

As people have noted before, NOT producing the most commercially attractive version at first HAS commercial attractions.  People tend to go for the first releases, and it is a way to make the less commercial versions sell well.  In addition, nowadays there is always the possibility of producing the Regional variations as shop "limited editions".  We will see.

 

.

[craneman]

...

Steffan Lewis of Maindy East fame also produced a very limited number of models of the GWR 36 tonners to special order. The are stunning, museum standard models, and I have never heard of one coming up for resale.

 

I was very sorry to read elsewhere on this forum that Steffan Lewis passed away unexpectedly earlier this month. A master modeller and a gentleman, I extend my condolences to all those touched by his premature passing.

 

I have the good fortune to own two of his GWR 36-ton crane models, which have just become that little bit more special for all the wrong reasons.

 

I am sure that his work will continue to be an inspiration to others for years to come, and if anyone is unfamiliar with his work I suggest 'googling' for his showcase layout, "Maindee East".

 

RIP, maestro, I salute you.

[MarkSG]

There's a photo of one of Steffan Lewis's cranes on this page: https://www.scalefour.org/shows/S4um2012/showcase.html

[Spannerman]

Forgive my confusion but I was under the impression that a Southern version of the crane was being produced ie a pre1948 model,but reading the latest posts it looks like it is a southern region post 1948. Is this the case?

 

Thanks

 

Nik

[Dunsignalling]

Forgive my confusion but I was under the impression that a Southern version of the crane was being produced ie a pre1948 model,but reading the latest posts it looks like it is a southern region post 1948. Is this the case?

 

Thanks

 

Nik

Still Southern Railway AFAIK

 

The four versions listed for production are: SR, GWR, BR lined black (early emblem, Eastern Region markings), BR Gulf red.  

 

John

Edited January 18, 2018 by Dunsignalling

[Poor Old Bruce]

Still Southern Railway AFAIK

 

The four versions listed for production are: SR, GWR, BR lined black (early emblem, Eastern Region markings), BR Gulf red.  

 

John

 

Not 'Gulf' red, just red. The prototype photo in the catalogue shows it to be "BR SR".

[Seanem44]

Wait....  249?!?!?

 

I thought this was listed at about 100.

 

I'm out.

 

Seriously...  I was going to purchase at 100.  Anything over 150 is too much.  250 is highway robbery for a non motorized model.

 

Ill just buy a used large Thomas the Tank engine breakdown crane and repaint it to what I need. 

 

Seriously... what the actual F are they thinking.  250???  I am very quickly getting priced out of this hobby.

[Paul.Uni]

I thought this was listed at about 100.

That was the Hattons made up price. £249.95 is the first RRP announced.

[Seanem44]

That was the Hattons made up price. £249.95 is the first RRP announced.

Yep... aware of that.  And for the most part, Hattons usually comes in at a good ball park price.  I figured it might have been as high as 150.  I would have considered it at that, which would be around $180 USD for me or so.  But at 250?  I can't justify paying $300 USD for a crane.  I could buy 10 coaches for that.  I could buy 30 assorted goods wagons if not more.  It's just too much, even as stunning as it looks.  A Jinty in O guage is 60 cheaper than that just for comparison.  You could literally get into O guage cheaper than buying that crane.

 

So the funny thing is, people say there isn't sufficient demand for a new auto-trailer to replace the outdated and incorrect Hornby version.  Yet, we have these cranes that appeal to likely an even more limited group of individuals, mainly because of price?

 

That's a bold move Cotton.  Let's see if it pays off...

Edited January 18, 2018 by Seanem44