Bachmann Class 158 Status

[Fenman]

... Bachmann are quite reacting - why are criticising Bachmann for not putting cash at risk whilst lauding Rapido for not putting it's cash on the line? ...

Possibly because half a decade ago Bachmann announced to much fanfare and bragging an all-new 158, while in the intervening years Rapido has just delivered. Broken promises always feel like a bit of a betrayal. We still have no idea when - or if - Bachmann will deliver this model. Now, the fact is, stuff happens and life changes. But this feels like Bachmann is crowding-out other possible suppliers of a 158 while failing to deliver itself.

 

Paul

[The Black Hat]

I think it's just lack of capacity, frankly, and possibly better margin items to fill their factory with. Bachmann have admitted they were over ambitious announcing too many projects . We know that Kader factory is full , so it's probably been on back burner. I don't think Realtrack or Rapidos entry has had an effect on it so far, although if they don't get there skates on it , it might!

 

Id agree with this. Bachmann have announced a lot of models, and while the Kader factory is full and production here has slowed the deliveries of models, some have been able to find space and get through. Bachmann have also noticed the price increases, which is why a lot of their models announced have been smaller and medium engines, rather than large engines such as pacifics. Diesels have also been churned out as they don't need as many parts to add in comparison and the tooling is already done, so it will give a good return on the model being made. Bachmann have chosen well here with the 37, 47 and 66 as they are workhorses that are going to be needed in number, but also have liveries that lend themselves to special editions and thus collectors in the model world.

 

I think the 158, when retooled, will join the likes of these diesels - hence why I think they should increase the initial release from 2 to 4. I think the demand is there and I think that the new model will be wanted despite the price increases due to the standard that Bachmann are going for if the Mk. 2 stock is to be believed. It also means that Bachmann get a faster return on the model, rather than the 2 or 3 releases of a class, that are done year on year. While the 158 could have plenty of follow up releases that continue afterwards, any further price increase caused by manufacturing costs going up, as seen on the models and the way they have risen might soon make the 158 too expensive.

 

So I think Bachmann should push this forward as I think they are onto a winner, but soon the idea of a 2 car 158 might head towards the release of the Blue Pullman set if they are not careful and that would be hard to justify.

[ruggedpeak]

I think it's just lack of capacity, frankly, and possibly better margin items to fill their factory with. Bachmann have admitted they were over ambitious announcing too many projects . We know that Kader factory is full , so it's probably been on back burner. I don't think Realtrack or Rapidos entry has had an effect on it so far, although if they don't get there skates on it , it might!

Whilst I agree, and on the assumption that Rapido have not decreased their North American output of models whilst expanding their UK range, then capacity is an issue. However capacity costs money, and clearly Kader haven't got spare and won't/can't invest in more.

 

Again the Rapido approach of only making models with a guaranteed return (and like the Prototype HST if there's no money in it they don't do it) means they can invest in capacity with less risk.

 

The extent of their involvement in the UK market is growing, as here, yet the only model that Rapido themselves are taking all the development/tooling risk they have delayed, as Bachmann have done with the 158. Does this mean Rapido are also land grabbing?

 

http://myemail.constantcontact.com/Rapido-News-UK-Vol--10.html?soid=1101318906379&aid=6dazJANxFxE

 

This is more consdiering the situation from other perspectives, but if I was Bachmann I'd be seriously considering using a pre-order/crowd fund route on say the 158 to reduce the risk and get it delivered. I suspect they don't want to go down this route, but the proof is in the pudding - these alternative business models are delivering good models. There are so many livery permutations on the 158 that it can then go into the main range through retailers as normal, something Bachmann are better placed than the new upstarts to do.

[Roy Langridge]

Whilst I agree, and on the assumption that Rapido have not decreased their North American output of models whilst expanding their UK range, then capacity is an issue. However capacity costs money, and clearly Kader haven't got spare and won't/can't invest in more.

 

Again the Rapido approach of only making models with a guaranteed return (and like the Prototype HST if there's no money in it they don't do it) means they can invest in capacity with less risk.

 

The extent of their involvement in the UK market is growing, as here, yet the only model that Rapido themselves are taking all the development/tooling risk they have delayed, as Bachmann have done with the 158. Does this mean Rapido are also land grabbing?

 

http://myemail.constantcontact.com/Rapido-News-UK-Vol--10.html?soid=1101318906379&aid=6dazJANxFxE

 

This is more consdiering the situation from other perspectives, but if I was Bachmann I'd be seriously considering using a pre-order/crowd fund route on say the 158 to reduce the risk and get it delivered. 

 

I don't see any of the main players going down the crowd funded / pre-order path. I think it is too much of a radical departure for them.

 

Roy

[jjb1970]

I'd be very disappointed if Bachmann and Hornby were to go down the crowd funder and all pre-order route.

 

Don't get me wrong, if those models work for companies then it's not for me to try and tell anybody how to run a business and it is certainly helping new entrants and those with an interest in less mainstream models. From a business perspective they have a lot going for them as they de-risk projects, avoid carrying inventory and cash flow is effectively farmed out to customers if you charge payments up front. That can (and indeed it should) suppress costs so there is something in it for customers.

 

On the other hand it means you have to order months (years?) in advance of seeing a model based on trust and pay money up front that you could use elsewhere. Personally (and I'd stress it is just my personal opinion) I'd rather accept the higher costs arising from a manufacturer carrying its own risk and managing its own financing etc and buy based on having the opportunity to see the model before buying. Admittedly that will cost more but I'd rather accept that.

[Gerald Henriksen]

First, worth noting that Bachmann is not unique in having production problems (I am sure they wish they could get these models to market in a timely fashion), and it isn't a problem unique to UK companies.  It seems as though all the various model train companies around the world experience issues at various times (and even the real companies - Bombardier recently indicated the possibility of yet more delays to their Toronto streetcar order).
 

Whilst I agree, and on the assumption that Rapido have not decreased their North American output of models whilst expanding their UK range

Rapido also experienced production issues, but last fall opened a second factory that has allowed them to get through their backlog of announcements.
 

Again the Rapido approach of only making models with a guaranteed return (and like the Prototype HST if there's no money in it they don't do it) means they can invest in capacity with less risk.

I think you are mistaken.
 
Rapido's normal(*) method of operation is to have the tooling done and pre-production samples available prior to the order book being closed - this means they have already spent the significant money on tooling prior to knowing how many models they will actually sell.  I don't think many people would consider this a guaranteed return.
 
* - the recently announced North American TurboTrain in N had it made clear that tooling would only commence with sufficient orders, though there was a 3D printed sample available.
 

The extent of their involvement in the UK market is growing, as here, yet the only model that Rapido themselves are taking all the development/tooling risk they have delayed, as Bachmann have done with the 158. Does this mean Rapido are also land grabbing?
 
http://myemail.constantcontact.com/Rapido-News-UK-Vol--10.html?soid=1101318906379&aid=6dazJANxFxE

Again, not accurate.  Rapido took on the risk for the APT-E (order deadline after pre-production sample available) and the upcoming Stirling Single.  Yes, the Prototype HST is delayed, but it was by no means the only model they took a risk on.
 
 

This is more consdiering the situation from other perspectives, but if I was Bachmann I'd be seriously considering using a pre-order/crowd fund route on say the 158 to reduce the risk and get it delivered. I suspect they don't want to go down this route, but the proof is in the pudding - these alternative business models are delivering good models. There are so many livery permutations on the 158 that it can then go into the main range through retailers as normal, something Bachmann are better placed than the new upstarts to do.

Crowd funding doesn't help if you can't get the item through the production issues in China, which appears to be Bachmann's problem.

[Gerald Henriksen]

I'd be very disappointed if Bachmann and Hornby were to go down the crowd funder and all pre-order route.

 

Don't get me wrong, if those models work for companies then it's not for me to try and tell anybody how to run a business and it is certainly helping new entrants and those with an interest in less mainstream models. From a business perspective they have a lot going for them as they de-risk projects, avoid carrying inventory and cash flow is effectively farmed out to customers if you charge payments up front. That can (and indeed it should) suppress costs so there is something in it for customers.

 

On the other hand it means you have to order months (years?) in advance of seeing a model based on trust and pay money up front that you could use elsewhere. Personally (and I'd stress it is just my personal opinion) I'd rather accept the higher costs arising from a manufacturer carrying its own risk and managing its own financing etc and buy based on having the opportunity to see the model before buying. Admittedly that will cost more but I'd rather accept that.

 

There are only 2 companies (so far) that are doing the crowd funding - Revolution Trains and DJM (for some product, other stuff is being done in the traditional way).  Most of what is available, and in OO the only exceptions are the DJM Class 71, 74, 92 and the Revolution Trains TEA Tanker, are produced the "normal" way.

 

Will there be more to come?  Likely.  Revolution Trains have indicated a willingness to consider more OO models once the TEA Tanker arrives and people can see actual product, and I am sure there are even in OO a number of prototype items that would be too risky for the traditional method.

 

But most of the market will continue to be serviced using the normal method with the only possible change being a move to pre-order only - but note that pre-production samples are normally available prior to the order deadlines so you can judge the model.

[cs233]

Whilst Bachmann will likely eventually deliver the Class 158 it may well be that considering the huge delay that another manufactuer has taken a step toward working on this model. Considering the huge livery application choice the 158 is sure to bring a significant and long-term financial return from the tooling costs. Only time will tell if this is the case but there is a large demand for the 158 in many liveries.

[DRS Crewe On A Mission]

I completely agree. I am seriously considering buying a second hand one and repainting into EMT livery, despite them being a bit 'basic' in terms of DCC and the size of the motor. Would work out much cheaper, although the prices of second hand 158s are rising and finding brand new ones are a rarity.

 

As for the demand for the new retooled model, I think it all depends on the quality/price tradeoff. If Bachmann can produce a highly detailed model without charging the earth (which I would say would be £275-300 plus) then I would expect it to be successful. As the previous poster alluded to it would be nice if Bachmann did something similar to Hornby with their class 153s and keep the 158s as part of an ongoing range and release one or two new liveries a year.

 

Yes thinking about it it would make sense to release more liveries on the 158 over the coming years. That would mean that the 158s could be part of the main range within the catalogue over the coming years. For example the 66s have been very dominant both within the main range and as Limited and Exclusive Editions over the last couple of years especially. Now that so many have been released over such a short period of time I think Bachmann need to produce more of different classes of locos to fill the gaps. It would also mean that Bachmann could receive the profit of the 158s over a much longer period alike what they have with the 66s. This option seems worthwhile because it would keep people interested and buying the 158s for several years and it would be more of an ongoing project rather than a short and sweet project that only lasts a couple of years if four models were to be released in the first batch. Starting the project slowly releasing two liveries at a time also gives the operators in reality more time to have the 158s repainted/re-vinyled. This in turn means that we would most likely see these new liveries appear on the models in future too.

 

I do hope that this what I suspect is a project by upgrading and modifying the tooling for the 158 is a success for Bachmann. I'm sure if the models have new/upgraded tooling, hopefully more lighting and detailing, more liveries, the ability to fit DCC Decoders and DCC Sound Decoders and if the price is right this will attract many customers, meaning that the project is a huge success.

 

As many have said a waiting time of five years for these two models since the original announcement and a possible land grab isn't ideal but I am willing to give Bachmann a chance here. I would like to think that their are some fantastic models in the making.

[bart2day]

Looking over at the desiro thread, I still cannot understand how a model announced two years later can arrive earlier. I know that the desiro is just a respray rather than all new tooling but still. Imagine if Apple said next iPad expected in 2022 but in the meantime here are the iPhones 8, 9 and 10. I know it's not as simple as that but it must be chaos in the Bachmann design studios/factories.

Edited July 15, 2017 by bart2day

[DRS Crewe On A Mission]

Looking over at the desiro thread, I still cannot understand how a model announced two years later can arrive earlier. I know that the desiro is just a respray rather than all new tooling but still. Imagine if Apple said next iPad expected in 2022 but in the meantime here are the iPhones 8, 9 and 10. I know it's not as simple as that but it must be chaos in the Bachmann design studios/factories.

 

I agree.

 

Regardless if their are tooling upgrades/modifications to be made to produce locos their certainly should be some sort of order. I think the issue that Bachmann have at the moment is that their are just so many newly tooled or retooled models that have been announced that their just clearly isn't the time or the factory space to produce all of these models in a reasonable time scale.

 

Hopefully we will see more progress with these models over the coming months.

[Ravenser]

The 158 is a bread-and-butter class with a multiplicity of liveries and a 27 year nationwide service life.

 

They were Bachmann's first DMU model, the first high-spec DMU model we got, and they sold  well as a "livery workhouse" in lots of colours for perhaps 15 years.

 

The loss of a RTR 158 in 4mm leaves a major gap in coverage.

 

However - I've got two, and I am extremely unlikely to replace them with the new model. The old model runs well, the finish is good , and the real things have tinted windows so you don't see inside. I need to sort out some lights issues and they don't couple , but otherwise they're fine.

 

Here I would make one point about the mechanism . Central in particular were in the habit of making up 3 car trains by strengthening a 2 car 158 with a 153.The Hornby "Limby" motor bogie and the big Bachman centre drive chassis are totally mismatched, and it's utterly and completely impossible to consist them . The Kadees broke apart inside 3' and they drifted down the layout at completely different speeds

 

I hope the new mechanism is more compatible with its peers

[newbryford]

 

Here I would make one point about the mechanism . Central in particular were in the habit of making up 3 car trains by strengthening a 2 car 158 with a 153.The Hornby "Limby" motor bogie and the big Bachman centre drive chassis are totally mismatched, and it's utterly and completely impossible to consist them . The Kadees broke apart inside 3' and they drifted down the layout at completely different speeds

 

I hope the new mechanism is more compatible with its peers

 

It may be a bit extravagant, but we demotored [*] a 153 and permanently coupled it to a 158.

 

The other way is to DCC them and speed match the decoders.

 

Cheers,

Mick

[*] We didn't actually take the motor out, it was made free running by removing part of the gear train.

[Ravenser]

 

It may be a bit extravagant, but we demotored [*] a 153 and permanently coupled it to a 158.

 

The other way is to DCC them and speed match the decoders.

 

Cheers,

Mick

[*] We didn't actually take the motor out, it was made free running by removing part of the gear train.

 

I have DCCed them and they're still totally incompatible. The mismatch is so great no attempts at speed matching are ever going to be sufficient to make it workable. From memory all are fitted with similar TCS decoders

As joining and splitting DMUs is supposed to add to the operational interest of the layout this is unfortunate - the 153s run separately or as a pair, so demotoring is not an option

 

(The same goes with the Bachmann 150 , but as there is no new model in prospect there's no real point discussing that here)

[Gerald Henriksen]

Looking over at the desiro thread, I still cannot understand how a model announced two years later can arrive earlier. I know that the desiro is just a respray rather than all new tooling but still. Imagine if Apple said next iPad expected in 2022 but in the meantime here are the iPhones 8, 9 and 10. I know it's not as simple as that but it must be chaos in the Bachmann design studios/factories.

 

 

The Desiro was simply a matter of taking the tooling out of storage and putting it in the machines, a simple process that merely needs a production slot - and a process that can take advantage of a production slot opening up suddenly due to another project not making the deadline.

 

As for your Apple example, it is actually somewhat accurate if you look at the entire Apple product line and not just the iDevices.  While Apple has been churning out new iPhones and iPads on a regular schedule they have experienced problems / delays / neglect on the Mac side of the company.

[bart2day]

The Desiro was simply a matter of taking the tooling out of storage and putting it in the machines, a simple process that merely needs a production slot - and a process that can take advantage of a production slot opening up suddenly due to another project not making the deadline.

 

As for your Apple example, it is actually somewhat accurate if you look at the entire Apple product line and not just the iDevices. While Apple has been churning out new iPhones and iPads on a regular schedule they have experienced problems / delays / neglect on the Mac side of the company.

I take your point but surely there was still considerable work on the livery application undertaken though and not just a case of production?

 

That may be so with regards to the MacBook, but that is likely to be because the ivices shift many more units than the macs, where windows is still much more popular. It is not clear whether the desirous are considerably more popular than the 158s. If I were Bachmann I would have put the desiro resources into the 158 production as there are currently no 158s in the Bachmann range whereas the 350, virtually identical to the 450, still is.

Edited July 16, 2017 by bart2day

[Andy Y]

The Desiro was simply a matter of taking the tooling out of storage and putting it in the machines, a simple process that merely needs a production slot - and a process that can take advantage of a production slot opening up suddenly due to another project not making the deadline.

 

Not wholly so.

 

The pantograph vehicle (in the case of the 450 the no pantograph vehicle!) is, in fact, all new tooling in order to represent the protoyype. Just as much R & D work and factory production time has gone into this model as any other new project.

[Gt.Shefford]

I wonder if there is a causal link between the continuing saga of the 158 and the ‘hurried’ introduction of a ‘B-spec’ 150 (powered car chassis).

 

The priority of the Chinese design team (according to the Bachmann rep at the Spalding show) is to create a motorised chassis with the maximum possible haulage capacity. While this is generally a desirable characteristic, there are instances where the ability to pull 10 mk1 coaches around a layout should neither be a requirement or necessary   - enter the original 150’s. It was this approach which led to the curious decision to fill the passenger saloon with chassis. On paper and in CAD this might not have appeared to be a to be a problem. Even at the prototype and sample stage the tinted windows hid the chassis. However, upon release the reviews both in print and on-line must have been sufficiently concerning to Bachmann for them to scramble to design, approve, prototype, and tool-up for production of a B-spec. 150 chassis.

 

My suggestion for the delay is that that the drawing office/tool room slot which was earmarked for the 158 was reassigned to the 150 

 

Jonathan

Edited July 16, 2017 by Gt.Shefford

[Perfect Paul]

Just a thought ?

If Bachmann (158) / Hornby (153) or Realtrack (156) were to produce "Dummy" sets, then surely everybody would be a winner. The modeller could run Double headers as per the real thing or afford to have a dummy sitting in a platform / fuelling point etc.The manufacturers

Just a thought ?

If Bachmann (158) / Hornby (153) or Realtrack (156) were to produce "Dummy" sets, then surely everybody would be a winner. The modeller could run Double headers as per the real thing or afford to have a dummy sitting in a platform / fuelling point etc.The manufacturers would also benefit from increased revenue to offset against production costs.

Edited July 17, 2017 by Perfect Paul

[Phil Parker]

Just a thought ?

If Bachmann (158) / Hornby (153) or Realtrack (156) were to produce "Dummy" sets, then surely everybody would be a winner. The modeller could run Double headers as per the real thing or afford to have a dummy sitting in a platform / fuelling point etc.The manufacturers

 

The easiest way to produce a dummy set is to leave the motor out. Cost difference no more than a couple of quid - these things are cheap when you buy in bulk.

 

BUT, retailers now have to stock two different sets and make sure buyers only get the dummy if that really want it. Can't see there being a rush to stock what will be a very slow moving items. 

[bart2day]

Not wholly so.

 

The pantograph vehicle (in the case of the 450 the no pantograph vehicle!) is, in fact, all new tooling in order to represent the protoyype. Just as much R & D work and factory production time has gone into this model as any other new project.[/size]

Assuming this is true (given the poster I completely believe it is) then in my opinion this is a damning indictment of the proficiency of Bachmann as a manufacturer. Edited July 16, 2017 by bart2day

[Andy Y]

Why?

 

Your own earlier incorrect statement that it was 'just a respray' was presented as a fact when it was nothing like one so why do you expect people to accept your latest statement as fact?

 

Assuming this is true (given the poster I completely believe it is) then in my opinion this is a damning indictment of the proficiency of Bachmann as a manufacturer.

I take it you know a lot more about producing models than you are letting on. No?

 

Thought so.

[bart2day]

Why?

Your own earlier incorrect statement that it was 'just a respray' was presented as a fact when it was nothing like one so why do you expect people to accept your latest statement as fact?

 

I take it you know a lot more about producing models than you are letting on. No?

Thought so.

No I don't expect it to be taken as fact. That is why I said 'in my opinion'. What is the point of a forum if opinions are forbidden? With regards to the desiro, I assumed it was just a respray as that is what other posters have stated.

 

I probably know less than most but given your informative statement about as much r&d being required on the desiro as on the 158 then in my opinion (apparently not allowed), I find it astonishing that a model announced two years later arrives significantly earlier.

Edited July 16, 2017 by bart2day

[Ravenser]

The easiest way to produce a dummy set is to leave the motor out. Cost difference no more than a couple of quid - these things are cheap when you buy in bulk.

 

BUT, retailers now have to stock two different sets and make sure buyers only get the dummy if that really want it. Can't see there being a rush to stock what will be a very slow moving items. [emphasis added]

 

If they don't fit a motor it may not move at all

[SRman]

Not wholly so.

 

The pantograph vehicle (in the case of the 450 the no pantograph vehicle!) is, in fact, all new tooling in order to represent the protoyype. Just as much R & D work and factory production time has gone into this model as any other new project.

 

Further to what Andy said, in my conversions from class 350/1, the pantograph well needs a little tidying up work (which i haven't yet done!), and some of the underfloor modules and bits and pieces needed removing. There may well be other details I missed but Bachmann will have picked up in doing theirs properly.