The future of loco kit building

[Grovenor]

Are Branchlines still going then, their last update http://branchlines.blogspot.co.uk/ is 2008.

The BLOG was set up by the previous owner, his last entry notified the change of ownership, afaik the current owner has never posted to it.

Keith

[coachmann]

Split-chassis.....Don't forget to put insulting bushes into the metal loco body for the chassis securing screws and insulating tape on top of the frames to prevent shorting. Metal bodies with metal couplings can be the very devil when coupling to rolling stock. Even Bachmann with its plastic bodies and couplings gave up on the idea of split chassis. It's a load of dicking about and for what? To reduce drag from wire pick ups.

 

Simplicity is the keyword every time. I built locos for a living and simplicty = speed = no comebacks = profit.

[queensquare]

Split Chassis?? Again a rediculous nonsense that only goes to further overcomplicate things! Who ever comes up with these ideas?????

 

Alex Jackson, Sid Stubbs , Norman Dale.......... Its been the standard method of loco construction in 2FS for decades, many top locomotive builders in 4mm and 7mm use it.

Nobody, certainly not me, has said it is the only or best method to use but it is another option. Why do you feel the need to be so prescriptive in your comments. Your dismissal of springing/compensation was made in the same vein. Just because you choose to go down a particular route, it does not necessarily make it the best or only way. As I said in an earlier post, for 2mm work where the wheels are designed for split axle and the drag of wiper pickups is significant that's what I use. For work in the bigger scales I tend to use wipers.

Personally, I'm not a fan of the so called 'american' system on its own as you are effectively only using half the potential pickups available but I stress, this is a personnel view.

 

Jerry

[halfwit]

Brian Clarke also used split chassis in his OO9 'Saltford Models' range of loco kits, which simplified building small chassis.

[Horsetan]

Split Chassis?? Again a rediculous nonsense that only goes to further overcomplicate things! Who ever comes up with these ideas??????? Does some-one have a death wish for loco kitbuilding?

 

It could be you. I've never come across anyone so afraid of trying to do a little bit better.

 

...Forgive me if I am repeating myself but there is nothing wrong with a simple well built rigid OO chassis...

 

Enough. - Ed

[JeffP]

Seems like you're building up a wall in your mind that it's a difficult operation - it really isn't difficult.

 

I use standard 1mm (and smaller) drill bits from the cheapo multi packs in a hand-held mini drill - you can even file a small flat and pop mark the axle if you're concerned about a wandering drill.

 

You're not trying to cut the decorative splashers for a GNR Single; three short cuts of about 5mm each with a 1/0 blade from Squires of Eileen's (I find they run true) - will go through the axle like a knife through butter and is over in seconds, with little opportunity for wandering.

 

Is 450mm of 3/16" mild steel rod on ebay for £1.25 to practice on cheap enough? And I bet you'd only practice on it the once before realising how simple it really is.

 

It's easy to convince yourself it can't be done. If you try it I think you'll be surprised at just how easy it really is.

 

Yes, I take your point, but the axles I've seen cut for splitting were cut over FAR further than 5mm, this, apparently, improving "the strength of the final axle".

 

I DO have a piercing saw, one that takes blades of any length and can even use the broken bits of the blade if they are long enough, it was £12 thirty years ago.

I also have blades, quite fine, (certainly fine enough to cut 1/32 brass sheet), and they cost me quite a lot of money 30 years ago.

 

But skill to use them? Patience? Sadly, not a lot of either.

 

I am sorry to say, (and it really DOES make me sad), that after reading quite a few things on here about different track gauges, different methods of chassis construction, and taking into account the cost of kits like JLTRT, and RTR locos like Heljan, I cannot see me EVER building any of the ten or so loco kits I have stocked up, nor being in a position to buy any more, or any of JLTRT's offerings and certainly not any Heljan. The fact that Brass locos/coaches/units are to disappear also hasn't been lost on me.

Mine will probably all go on a well known auction site over the next year or so.

[Paul Cram]

I find this thread strange. Bill has posted a well thought out potential chassis idea to make life easier for kit builders. Within a few post someone asks about split chassis, so the discussion has began about chopping axles in half, shorting out the insulation on the backs of wheels etc. Surely if this about the future of kit building we should be encouraging any idea that makes chasssis building easier for those who wish to make kits than adding in more complications. Anyhow aren't split chassis useless for DCC?

 

I hope not as my J25 is going to run badly. Why should split chassis be DCC incompatible?

[Clive Mortimore]

Paul

 

All I have heard is that Bachmann split chassis are not easy to get to run with DCC. Not being a DCC modeller I could not say why. Jim on a Monday night could, so come and join us one Monday (not next week because we are not there).

[queensquare]

Paul

 

All I have heard is that Bachmann split chassis are not easy to get to run with DCC. Not being a DCC modeller I could not say why. Jim on a Monday night could, so come and join us one Monday (not next week because we are not there).

 

That's because the brush gear is in direct contact with one half of the chassis and has to be isolated from it in order to wire a DCC chip. It has nothing to do with split chassis per se.

 

Jerry

[N15class]

Yes, I take your point, but the axles I've seen cut for splitting were cut over FAR further than 5mm, this, apparently, improving "the strength of the final axle".

 

I DO have a piercing saw, one that takes blades of any length and can even use the broken bits of the blade if they are long enough, it was £12 thirty years ago.

I also have blades, quite fine, (certainly fine enough to cut 1/32 brass sheet), and they cost me quite a lot of money 30 years ago.

 

But skill to use them? Patience? Sadly, not a lot of either.

 

I am sorry to say, (and it really DOES make me sad), that after reading quite a few things on here about different track gauges, different methods of chassis construction, and taking into account the cost of kits like JLTRT, and RTR locos like Heljan, I cannot see me EVER building any of the ten or so loco kits I have stocked up, nor being in a position to buy any more, or any of JLTRT's offerings and certainly not any Heljan. The fact that Brass locos/coaches/units are to disappear also hasn't been lost on me.

Mine will probably all go on a well known auction site over the next year or so.

So Jeff

What is the problem if you have not started why give up you can start S7 or finescale nothing to convert. All you need to do is make up your mind. I have not started my layout yet. But the decission was easy for me. 31.5 gauge in the point work, 32 running rail Peco. Just my choice. Mainly because I build lots to 32 gauge anyway.

Build your locos, the chassis can be what you want, there is no hard and fast way of doing them. Just do what is good for you. Do not worry so much about what everyone else is doing. If you do you will never have any hobby or success with kits.

I do not think you need to worry about brass kits dissapearing not in our lifetime anyway. If you cant afford JLRT or Heljan so what. I cant either. But instead of bemoaning the fact. I get cheaper kits and put more of me into them.

I pick the good ideas or whay I think are good ones and add them to the way I work and forget the rest. But stop finding reasons not to build take the plunge and do one. You said you used to build in 4mm, so why is 7mm so hard to get your head around?

Everyone on here will help and encourage. Or join a club, something that I have never done. No one will mind what scale gauge combination you work with.

[Buckjumper]

Split Chassis?? Again a rediculous nonsense that only goes to further overcomplicate things! Who ever comes up with these ideas??????? Does some-one have a death wish for loco kitbuilding?

 

 

Su-perb! I do so enjoy these occasional histrionics as they help blow away the doom and gloom to keep the thread feisty and fun

 

Not that I agree with you, mind, and I'm sure things of a similar vein were said to, among others, Stephenson at the Rainhill trials, to the Wright brothers at Kill Devil Hills. Still, it would be boring if we all agreed.

 

Jeff - I agree with Pete; stop looking at what others do! Trying to work out the best gauge and the best way to build chassis is a good thing, but if that creates indecision, or hinders what should be an enjoyable hobby, or even puts you off completely, then you need to re-evaluate what you want. By that I don't mean throw them all on ebay, but take Ken's (Jazz) very appropriate signature line and apply it; learning by doing. A modeller who never made a mistake never actually started modelling.

[davelester]

They had a stand at Warley a couple of weeks ago.

 

Mike Wlitshire

 

... And I couldn't even get close enough to pick up the price-list! They seemed to be doing a roaring trade.

[JeffP]

Thanks for the support, lads.

 

Dark, cold nights are never a good time for me, once the nights start drawing out again I'll be better.

 

And spending hours a night on MSN trying to tutor my lad throuigh "A" level/university maths doesn't help.....

[davelester]

Alex Jackson, Sid Stubbs , Norman Dale..........

 

Jerry,

 

Talking with Sid, what drove them was the paucity of available material. Thus the group developed the split chassis as a solution to the 2 rail problem, in an age when scrounging some mild steel for wheels was itself a major undertaking. The group also developed first EM, and were major contributors to the eventual P4 standard. Sid continued working in EM mainly, but Norman Whitnall ended up working in P4. I was privileged to have Norman as my tutor for a Lathe course and Sid as examiner.

 

So, the answer to John's question ("who ever comes up with these ideas?") is "Manchester", just like the computers we all use.

 

And even today, if there is no suitable wheel, it is a reasonable solution to use steel wheels and a split chassis, see Sid and Daves' article here.

[Buhar]

Split chassis, I have built a Ratio MR 2-4-0 class 1. I have toiled with many a Mainline/Bachmann 204 hp 0-6-0 shunter chassis when the axle insulator decides to fatigue. It is not very encouraging to a new kit builder to say to him you need to cut your axles in half with tools you possibly will not have.

 

Clive

 

Now that Ratio kit must surely qualify as one that was aimed at beginners to kit building. It was basically an Airfix kit style body with brass chassis sides, plastic spacer moulding with integral motor mount and mazak wheels. The axles were integral with the wheels with a plastic sleeve that joined and quartered them to make it a split chassis. The kit was glued together, I can't remember how the chassis sides fitted, possibly 2-part expoxy, but the only two bits of soldering to fit wires between some tags and the motor. Additionally, two variations could be produced, the 2-4-0 and 4-4-0 by the expedient of having an extended footplate and bogie for the 4-4-0 kit.

 

Unfortunately while the body was dimensionally good it had moulded everything, handrails, reversing lever (following the shape of the boiler!) and (clack?) valves. Also the chimney dome and safety valve were integral with the boiler halves which left a lot of seam lines. The wheels were terrible and the motor a 50p jobby. Mine did run, after a fashion, but didn't help to develop my general kit-building skills, which are still a bit stuck, being a posh Airfix kit really.

 

Later Perseverence did a conventional etched chassis for it which was, I think, sold with the kit. Both versions turn up on e-bay a fair bit in various stages of completion, so I don't think a lack of skills is the only reason kits don't get built.

 

Also the screw-together frames of Ks and DJH kits were clearly aimed at avoiding the builder having to use a soldering iron and think to much about things being square. Unfortunately that had it's flaws as a system, in that squareness didn't just appear.

 

Some people have commented on the satisfaction they obtain from "I built that" and clearly there are loads of people who build kits for the fun of it without having a layout to run them on. I would say these folk form the continuing market for kits. Those who want to supplement their RTR stock possibly apply a different approach, compare prices and think about what sort of paint finish they can achieve before (in many cases) passing on the idea of a kit. A good few years ago when RTR would need a repaint or detailing, the kit with a less than perfect paint job wouldn't stand out, these days it probably would look out of place.

 

I know ('cos I have seen) we have modellers on here who can get a kit looking lovely, Metro, Coach, Max spring to mind, and in the fullness of time that's what I want to emulate, but in wanting to encourage people to have a go (which I think has been a theme through this topic) it is surely useful to pay regard to the sticking points the less skilled or confident among us may experience.

 

Some comments about spinging/compensation (which I do try use) and split chassis (which I don't) have perhaps tried to say "it's really easy, try it" but end up giving the message "you just drill a 0.765mm hole dead square in pure titanium, I do it by hand but it's easier with a £200 WidgetBasher". The most encouraging thing for someone who is contemplating one of their collection of kits is not to have the prospect of an expensive mess and to have the prospect of something that is presentable (if only to close family and friends).

[GWR460]

they better not fade away as it should not be seen as being replaced by RTR there to different hobbies in their own right.

 

It would be nice if the likes of airfix could produce plastic kits that could be motorised as a future development.

 

the quality of the new stuff may look good but it certainly is not that high quality when you look at the quality of he components of new build locos with 100% recycling non durable plastic with fragile plastic parts super glued on., non maintainable chassis in some cases that are super glued together dodgy electrics and motors that burn out after a few years of use.

 

its all part of the throw away culture and profit as a sole driving force rather than longevity. spares are becoming a thing of the past. not like the old days when you could by a component and fix your own loco. now its all warranty and gurrantee.

 

im shocked at the stupidity of contructuion too of some new locos with very thin conection rods made from the softest metal. its not good.

 

after a while you pick up an old wren loco and think this is better.

[Kenton]

It's easy to convince yourself it can't be done. If you try it I think you'll be surprised at just how easy it really is.

 

I'm not saying it can't be done just like many things it is not quick and straightforward. Time is the most valuable thing I have and when you try something new an awful lot of it is wasted. Mine really failed due to the Araldite (I actually hate the stuff and hardly ever have the need for it - sure probably the mix is wrong, but I have no use for it so why bother - more time - when this would be the only use for it?) As said the axles are only part of the problem, sorting out the wheels and the chassis still remain for the majority of kits. The designing-in into the kit and the availability of "drop in" parts are the only way that split-chassis (which I believe is the best way) will come to prominence.

[Metropolitan]

There is one new technology that I certainly am in favour of which I would imagine will help to promote Kit Building. That is battery power and radio control. No more pickups. No need for split chassis or any other fad. No more 6 miles of layout wiring and fiddling with point polarity. No more wheel cleaning!!! And not even the single justification for compensation that it it improves conductivity!!

[Buckjumper]

There is one new technology that I certainly am in favour of which I would imagine will help to promote Kit Building. That is battery power and radio control. No more pickups. No need for split chassis or any other fad. No more 6 miles of layout wiring and fiddling with point polarity. No more wheel cleaning!!! And not even the single justification for compensation that it it improves conductivity!!

 

With you 100% on wireless control, though not necessarily radio frequencies- too limiting. New and better options are coming through. I'd still spring stock throughout though (well it wouldn't be right to agree on everything, would it?)

[coachmann]

Folk either want to build a metal loco kit or they dont. My experience was I visited the GEM factory around 1967, saw the LNWR locos on display and wanted one. I mentioned what I had done with my first loco kit some four years previously (melted it into a ball of whitemetal thru' annoyance) and was told I needed lowmelt solder (ugh, never heard of it?), flux (ugh, never used that last time) and two electric soldering irons of 25watt and 45watt. (jee's, I heated my previous iron on the fire). Those few clues set me on the road to loco building and I never looked back. I'm not intending to brag or anything but to show that none of us is born to solder and that if we want to do it we just better get on with it.

 

A child can assemble a plastic kit (anyone remember the Massey Ferguson tractor in he early 1950s?), but a metal kit is not such an obstacle if soldering and bending etched parts is approached with an open mind.

[Will L]

... Time is the most valuable thing I have and when you try something new an awful lot of it is wasted.

 

Can't help feeling that while that is a perfectly reasonable point of view for somebody trying to make a crust building kits for others, its no more representative of railway modellers in general than somebody who "enjoys the challenges and wants to do it as well as possible so went P4" like me.

 

Will

[Joseph_Pestell]

Are Branchlines still going then, their last update http://branchlines.blogspot.co.uk/ is 2008.

 

Regards

 

Judging by the date, that would be the old owners who retired. New owners must have a different web address (or none at all).

[jwealleans]

Branchlines were responding very quickly to emails and supplying goods last week.

[highpeak]

There is one new technology that I certainly am in favour of which I would imagine will help to promote Kit Building. That is battery power and radio control. No more pickups. No need for split chassis or any other fad. No more 6 miles of layout wiring and fiddling with point polarity. No more wheel cleaning!!! And not even the single justification for compensation that it it improves conductivity!!

No real need for track either. Back in 1976 Don Fiehmann demonstrated a radio controlled, battery powered A-B diesel unit at the breakfast table at an NMRA convention.

I would have hoped in the intervening 35 years this technology would have become more mature for model railways as it does offer some advantages of power-through-rail, whether DC or DCC and would eliminate one problem with building kits.

[John M]

No real need for track either. Back in 1976 Don Fiehmann demonstrated a radio controlled, battery powered A-B diesel unit at the breakfast table at an NMRA convention.

I would have hoped in the intervening 35 years this technology would have become more mature for model railways as it does offer some advantages of power-through-rail, whether DC or DCC and would eliminate one problem with building kits.

 

In the large scale on board battery Vs track power is probably a bigger source of controversy that the rigid/compensated/ OOvsfinescale debate in 4mm.

 

The technology is widely used by G and garden railway modellers, while I mainly use DCC with track power I have one G gauge radio controlled loco with on board batteries.

 

A number of systems are available for large scale use which vary from a single transmitter to receiver to those that allow the operator to select a specfic loco from a roster similar to DCC.

 

The main challenge for small scale use is either desigining a 12V battery small enough to fit in a loco or a high quality motor and drive train suitable to be driven by a 1.5V battery.

 

The other factor to be considered is cost even with a low cost model aircraft style transmitter and receiver, the total cost of converting a single loco (power controller, battery pack, charger etc) can be considerable let alone a fleet of small scale locos.

 

Battery power adds operational challenge, locos have to be fueled/charged, operation has to planned you dont want to be stranded with a flat battery on the road, in the case of a de-railment a battery powered loco can do damage to itself, other stock and the railway!