The future of loco kit building

[billbedford]

It is not only plastic, I am not inspired by the pitiful resin offerings or the results, so far, from the world of 3D - though I can see a future there.

 

 

I wonder who is really getting the benefits of 3D printing

[Kenton]

 

I wonder who is really getting the benefits of 3D printing

No sharp edges, looks far worse than a good plastic molded kit (Airfix)- only advantage is that it is a one piece "lump" (I don't even call that an advantage) I am afraid 3D has a long way to go if that is the best it can offer.

 

But then you know I can't stand anything that cannot be soldered together, however I have heard that 3D is now coming of age with metal deposition. We could see it replacing w/m casting - even brass casting ... so there is hope.

[coachmann]

Whitemetal has its uses I feel, but I've got an etched brass loco to build for myself in the near future........Never built a full one before, but we have to start somewhere.

[Barry O]

While the RTR locos are very nice there is something about a whitemetal and etched brass loco which makes it feel more "loco" like - probably the weight. They don't seem to slip as easily as some of the RTR offerings and as I seem to have to change the RTR wheels to get better flanges then my DJH A1 will be built before I buy an RTR one..

[JeffP]

What Model, Larry?

 

Kenton: I've seen some absolutely amazing things produced by 3-D printing, while being shown round the engineering department at Loughborough Uni with my eldest.

 

One of the best things about the items was the internal detail...not sure how relevant that is to us, but it's mind-blowing to see.

[N15class]

I am sure that things like 3D printing will be good in some years but for now it is not a smooth enough finish.

 

 

I feel it is not whether there are new processes or existing technology. But whether people want to get beyond opening a box. I look at lots on this sight and it is amazing how many threads there are from people want such and such manufacturer to mack a so and so. Then being upset when it is not. If it is wanted that much build one. It may not be as good as one made elsewhere but its yours and unique. Are people losing the ability to build? My kids struggle with simple tasks such as folding metal and soldering.

 

Is using set track, RTR, and buildings in a box actually modelling? To me it is the precurser of modelling. I used to call it playing with trains when I was a kid. I find it strange that in our hobby buying something ready made is called modelling. In others such as boats, aircraft they seem to call building something modelling.

[billbedford]

No sharp edges, looks far worse than a good plastic molded kit (Airfix)- only advantage is that it is a one piece "lump" (I don't even call that an advantage) I am afraid 3D has a long way to go if that is the best it can offer.

 

I'm sure that the good folk in Margate will be amused at your reply.

 

The photo was of a prototype for the Hornby Duke of Gloucester. These are made to validate the drawings and to check the fit of pieces before the moulds are cut. It is not 'one lump' as you can see the join between the smokebox front and the smokebox -- just like the finished model. As for the lack of sharp edges, the fact that the material is translucent doesn't help, but in general the sharpness is no different to cast whitemetal. The point about this piece is that while the majority of kits manufacturers seem stuck in 1990s technology the majors can afford to invest in more modern technology to bring down their costs and/or lower their break even point.

 

 

But then you know I can't stand anything that cannot be soldered together, however I have heard that 3D is now coming of age with metal deposition. We could see it replacing w/m casting - even brass casting ... so there is hope.

 

 

 

3D metal deposition is never going to replace casting, though a lot of castings today are produce from printed waxes.

[coachmann]

What Model, Larry?

L&Y push-pull fitted unsuperheated Belpaire 2-4-2T with long bunker.

[hayfield]

  but the price of rubber bands just keeps expanding

 

It is not only plastic, I am not inspired by the pitiful resin offerings or the results, so far, from the world of 3D - though I can see a future there.

 

Cast white-metal also has very limited future - again it is the cost of the molds and a dying skill base.

 

Which brings us back to brass and n-s. The best of these, relatively cheap to produce in small numbers, seem to require increasing competence at converting from the 2D to 3D form (Not always the fault of the builder).

 

 

 Kenton

 

Whilst I agree mostly with what you are saying, I am very impressed and enjoying building a resin coach, namely a Port Wynnstay Models model. I also have a resin diesel which has had a bit of abuse from the previous builder. I may buy a new as I am quite impressed with it, rather than try and bring this one up to scratch(both are O 16.5 models). I did get another O 16.5  loco which is an etched kit, this is a basic kit and with a little TLC will be very nice, but certainly in this scale/gauge combo resin is fine as the thickness of the walls is a bonus. I must say though the Chivers plastic wagons are excellent, in both quality and value. 2 more arrived today in the post,

[John_Hughes]

Some of the North American resin kits for rolling stock are simply stunning; there's a lovely new one just out for Canadian Pacific's Victory boxcars (plywood-sided, a little like the Southern's WWII efforts in the UK, though the Canadian ones probably lasted longer).

 

I'm not aware of our friends over the Atlantic doing the same for locos, but the manufacturers' skills and their handling of the material would certainly suggest that resin would cut the mustard. And the 'milky-bar' boilers that London Road Kits provide for some of their models are pretty good in my experience.

 

Must get on and build that Coal Tank kit I bought at York last year....

[coachmann]

 

.............. And the 'milky-bar' boilers that London Road Kits provide for some of their models are pretty good in my experience.

 

The milky bar boilers were one of those good ideas that failed to pass the painters test. The first time I encountered a milkybar loco was when a manufacturer sent along his new GWR Pannier for painting, the first to use this material. It broke my bloody heart as no matter what I did, it was like spraying onto grease. Before long milky bar idea spread to boilers boilers. I thought it might be the release agent and so brushed the resin boilers down with cellulose thinners. Another downside was expansion and contraction. The resin boilers are 'alive' and provision is needed to allow them to slide at one end like a real boiler. Without this I have seen brass footplates bend like bananas. The movement also left unpainted segments of boiler handrail showing beside each handrail knob as it shrank or contracted. I was glad when DJH started to use some form of pewter.

[Horsetan]

.....Another downside was expansion and contraction. The resin boilers are 'alive' and provision is needed to allow them to slide at one end like a real boiler. ....

 

Now this I didn't know.....

[coachmann]

Now this I didn't know.....

Don't quote me on this as it is some time since I handled locos, but I seem to recall the milkybar boilers were fixed at the firebox end and the smokebox fixing screws allowed to slide in slots in the running plate, the reverse of real locomotives.

[pete_mcfarlane]

I think resin has a bad name in the UK through due to the number of frankly rubbish loco bodies that have been produced this way down the years, rather than any fundamental problems with the material itself.

 

Some UK resin stuff is really good - I was very impressed with the DC Kits class 71 electric I built a few years back.

[The Mallard]

Hi all

Not sure if I am doing this correctly, so please guide me.  I am not a forum user and not sure where to post my first post.  So apologies ahead for crashing a thread.

I did a little research and it brought me to this site.  My father passed away and was a huge steam engine (mainly South African) enthusiast and the plan was to send his retired life building models.  Sadly cancer got the better of him.

We did have time to go through some items, so some I know are extremely valuable.

My question is where do I begin?  Are the model railways specialists out there that can come give an honest evaluation for auction.  I am hesitant to place it on Ebay, coupled with the fact that there are masses of items.

Amongst all of this are a huge amount of electronic items too.

Hope to be advised wisely :-)

 

[billbedford]

The milky bar boilers were one of those good ideas that failed to pass the painters test. The first time I encountered a milkybar loco was when a manufacturer sent along his new GWR Pannier for painting, the first to use this material. It broke my bloody heart as no matter what I did, it was like spraying onto grease. Before long milky bar idea spread to boilers boilers. I thought it might be the release agent and so brushed the resin boilers down with cellulose thinners. Another downside was expansion and contraction. The resin boilers are 'alive' and provision is needed to allow them to slide at one end like a real boiler. Without this I have seen brass footplates bend like bananas. The movement also left unpainted segments of boiler handrail showing beside each handrail knob as it shrank or contracted. I was glad when DJH started to use some form of pewter.

 

Now that most cars have painted plastic bumpers you can buy specially formulated aerosols of cellulose for dealing with this problem.  Halfords sell it as Bumper Preparation.

[Horsetan]

Hi all

 

Not sure if I am doing this correctly, so please guide me.  I am not a forum user and not sure where to post my first post.  So apologies ahead for crashing a thread.

 

I did a little research and it brought me to this site.  My father passed away and was a huge steam engine (mainly South African) enthusiast and the plan was to send his retired life building models.  Sadly cancer got the better of him.

 

We did have time to go through some items, so some I know are extremely valuable.

 

My question is where do I begin?  Are the model railways specialists out there that can come give an honest evaluation for auction.  I am hesitant to place it on Ebay, coupled with the fact that there are masses of items.

 

Amongst all of this are a huge amount of electronic items too.

 

Hope to be advised wisely :-)

 

Move your posting to this part of the Forum

[coachmann]

Re plastic primers (thanks for reminding me BillB), I have just remembered I was forced to move to using them as an extra process and charged accordingly. What I did was mask off as much of the brass construction as possible before spraying the resin boiler with plastic primer. When dry, thinners was used to remove any of this primer from the brass, to which it would not key sufficiently. Then the whole locomotive was sprayed with the usual metal primer, the reason being to the plastic primer was grey and te metal primer red oxide. Job done but it took longer than for all-metal locos.

 

I have read on here in the past that folk found plastic primer on metal okay. The stuff i used didn't. When in business, one has to do the job properly for obvious reasons.

[hayfield]

Hi all

 

Not sure if I am doing this correctly, so please guide me.  I am not a forum user and not sure where to post my first post.  So apologies ahead for crashing a thread.

 

I did a little research and it brought me to this site.  My father passed away and was a huge steam engine (mainly South African) enthusiast and the plan was to send his retired life building models.  Sadly cancer got the better of him.

 

We did have time to go through some items, so some I know are extremely valuable.

 

My question is where do I begin?  Are the model railways specialists out there that can come give an honest evaluation for auction.  I am hesitant to place it on Ebay, coupled with the fact that there are masses of items.

 

Amongst all of this are a huge amount of electronic items too.

 

Hope to be advised wisely :-)

 

 

Welcome to the forum, very sad when one has to dispose of another's collection. You can start by downloading some photos so we can see what you have. I am certain some members will be happy to give their opinion

 

Ebay can be a good platform for selling items to a world wide audience, especially if you are trying to sell locos from another country, Normally Ebay sells in the smaller scales and if your late fathers models are of larger scales it may not be the best place to sell.

[Hancockshire]

Sorry, are you still in the 1970s?

 

 

Yours is presumably very shallow. Injection moulding tooling for a plastic loco kit (which I think is what you're hinting at) runs easily into five, call it six, figures - particularly in Britain. You would need to make it at least as good as Chinese-assembled RTR can be, and to offer parts in the kit to cover as many variants as possible because everybody these days wants to have their cake and eat it.

 

Your price needs to at least allow you to cover your tooling costs, marketing, storage and distribution, and hopefully allow you to break even - after all, why would you do it otherwise? And you'll still be looking over your shoulder at the Chinese RTR versions of your products to some extent.

 

So if you want to make a small fortune in British-produced plastic loco and rolling stock kits, start with a large one.

Alright, go on ipengineering.co.uk & you'll see that a basic wooden loco kit costs £30>40,  in plastic £50>60 & in whitemetal £75+. That's a whole kit too, you don't have to buy wheels/motors/gearboxes or electronics either. In fact, let's really sum it up, I bought a LIVE STEAM 16mm loco for £70, you can't even buy a DJH J50 for that & I get a working steam engine instead of an overpriced electric mouse. I'm also not claiming to know the logistics & costs of the production but I believe its something that appeals to modellers which have been completely overlooked, beginners & the inexperienced. Now do you want more people to come in the kit building part of the hobby or do you want to put them off?

 

16mm in this case is far better than 4mm. Bigger, in many cases cheaper & there is a vast range for modellers to choose from not forgetting the huge scope for scratch building because the parts are cheap. Believe me, I've done it. I've made a simplex with a wooden chassis, card body (painted & weatherproofed), salvaged electronics & gears & the only parts I had to pay for were the wheels which came to around £4

[Horsetan]

....16mm in this case is far better than 4mm.

In terms of "ooh what a big model I've got", yes. But not everyone wants to work in your scale.

 

 

Bigger,....,

....is not necessarily better.

[hayfield]

Alright, go on ipengineering.co.uk & you'll see that a basic wooden loco kit costs £30>40,  in plastic £50>60 & in whitemetal £75+. That's a whole kit too, you don't have to buy wheels/motors/gearboxes or electronics either. In fact, let's really sum it up, I bought a LIVE STEAM 16mm loco for £70, you can't even buy a DJH J50 for that & I get a working steam engine instead of an overpriced electric mouse. I'm also not claiming to know the logistics & costs of the production but I believe its something that appeals to modellers which have been completely overlooked, beginners & the inexperienced. Now do you want more people to come in the kit building part of the hobby or do you want to put them off?

 

16mm in this case is far better than 4mm. Bigger, in many cases cheaper & there is a vast range for modellers to choose from not forgetting the huge scope for scratch building because the parts are cheap. Believe me, I've done it. I've made a simplex with a wooden chassis, card body (painted & weatherproofed), salvaged electronics & gears & the only parts I had to pay for were the wheels which came to around £4

A very interesting range of rolling stock, sorry I cant see any plastic or whitemetal kits !!. I looked at the chassis which vary up to £50 plus.

 

I think we all have stories of buying an expensive item at a very low cost, but that proves nothing

 

I am glad you enjoy 16 mm gauge, I have seen some outstanding feats of engineering in it, But that gauge has no interest to me and if you care to look at some of the 7mm Narrow gauge offerings they match your costings at the cheaper end with excellent detail and value for money, as well as those which reach model engineering standards and cost several hundreds of pounds.

[JeffP]

And how does bigger, fit into a modern semi?

[hayfield]

And how does bigger, fit into a modern semi?

 

At our annual show 2 years ago we had a radio controlled gauge 3 layout !! I guess the inglenook type layout would have to be 6' to 8' long and of course there is the garden.

 

Nothing wrong with building 16 mm locos at home. One of my friends rebuilt a Ford Popular at the bottom of his garden, he lived in a terraced house and it had to be carried over 3 gardens to get it out on to the road!! 

[EHertsGER]

Well now: that depends on whether you have the required drill bits, drilling machine, saw and SKILL to actually do it.

 

I know for certain that many people find it very difficult to keep a piercing saw going where they want it to.

And practising on Slater's axles ain't cheap!

Just a little comment here about piercing saw practice; make sure your blade is tight, really tight - flicking it with a fingernail will give you a perfect pitch note if it is right. fear not if it is just off - but it must be a clear note. That way it will run true if, and only if it is sharp. Guy Williams - he of all knowledge worth having - states clearly in his bible that if it (the blade) misbehaves, bin it before it does any damage. Take it slow, as the blade will cut for you, don't force it. And for those of you who have yet to make it to Carnegie Hall, practice, practice, practice...

 

Good luck,

Best,

Marcus