The future of loco kit building

[Horsetan]

I didn't know we had anything heavier than lead. Awesome.

 

Mercury is quite dense, but like lead it tends to be a bit poisonous......

[57xx]

I didn't know we had anything heavier than lead. Awesome.

Just be careful machining depleted uranium....

[t-b-g]

I am not quite sure why so many people have a bit of a "downer" on good old whitemetal.

 

A has been said, in the hands of a good patternmaker/caster it can produce excellent results.

 

Many of the kits that come in for some stick are pretty ancient and it is like suggesting that a 1970s car is not as good as a car from 2013. They were a product of the time and based on what was available at the time they were produced.

 

There are some good things about whitemetal that resin cannot ever replace. Weight has been mentioned but also, I have never had any joy in soldering brass bits to resin. Another is that you can solder some rough whitemetal lumps together from a poor kit and then start filling, altering and detailing them and sometimes they can end up looking like what they were supposed to be in the first place. It is not a universal approach to kit building but I enjoy that sort of work.

 

If you model the GCR, names like McGowan, BEC and Millholme crop up and bring knowing smiles from some folk!

 

One of the best kits I have ever built was a whitemetal NER J77 from (I think from memory) a Dave Alexander kit. The castings were lovely and all fitted with no problems at all.

 

So I would prefer decent whitemetal to decent resin for most situations, although I can fully understand those who feel otherwise. It is very much a matter of personal preference.

 

Tony

[Kenton]

I didn't know we had anything heavier than lead. Awesome.

Well, staying away from the radioactive and highly toxic, there is always gold (about twice as heavy).

 

But I think what is being described here is something that is not "heavier" but denser (occupies less space for the same weight) Tungsten or more likely one of the Mallory alloys. Copper+Tungsten for example is fairly common and is used as lead shot replacement in ammunition (where the green folk get upset about poisoning!) also in angling where similar concerns are manifest. These alloys can also be cast in much the same way as brass. Tungsten is about 1.7 times more dense than lead.

 

Back to the subject of resin in railway models: I personally hate the stuff when used in metal kits and will go as far as to say it has no place there. The reason is simple, you cannot solder anything to resin so it involves that horrible cop-out of using some sort of glue. (most of which do not work on resin - though still wouldn't use them) I tend to avoid all resin components if at all possible.

 

Resin like balsa wood is used in model airplanes for a reason - they are lightweight, the last thing you want on these models is added weight.

 

That is not saying that resin has no place in model railways. As far as loco/coach/wagon kits are concerned, I think the potential of using 3D to produce masters for the production of molds for normal casting of whitemetal will become more common. And will potentially produce far more accurate molds. But resin components in a metal kit are destined for the waste bin AFAIC.

 

I also believe that there is far too much myth spread about white metal. Horror stories about it melting for a start. The quality of castings does vary quite a lot, but I believe much of that is due to the desire of the kit producer to not renew molds or having poor quality (old) or lost masters. Resin seems to be used as a cheap alternative. We as modellers of course do not help by wanting the cheap option, and supporting the survival of kits that were badly designed (or simply past their usefulness).

[Guest Natalie Graham]

I think one of the problems historically with white metal is that it was the first, and for a long time only, viable method of producing model railways items in the sort of production runs required. As a result, while it gave rise to a whole load of valuable products it was also used for many applications where it shouldn't have been, cast whitemetal coaches for example.

 

 There is also a considerable range of grades of whitemetal. Lumping them all together is a bit like talking about building using 'stone'. The properties of granite for example will be far different than those of, say, chalk. There are whitemetal alloys ranging from those that are intended for use in bending pipes to those intended for the finest of cast jewellery.  Some alloys have the ability to reproduce the finest detail in a crisp and not particularly heavy casting. Others will only ever produce a 'coarse lump' with very little in the way of detail, no matter how good the patterns or the mould. Unfortunately, both for those in the business and the customer, the ones which, potentially, offer the best results in terms of high quality castings also tend to be the ones which are more difficult to work with and are more likely to give a larger rate of reject castings. It is also the case that the alloy which will produce a nice round solid boiler will not be the one which is perfect for casting axleboxes and probably neither is ideal for tender sides. So a balance needs to be struck. Unfortunately it is often easier to sacrifice quality and detail for ease of production.

 

A good quality whiremetal casting made from a high grade alloy can be the equal of anything in the business.

[billbedford]

Back to the subject of resin in railway models: I personally hate the stuff when used in metal kits and will go as far as to say it has no place there. 

 

 

I take it, then, you won't be tackling the Brassmasters Black Five any time soon?

 

 The reason is simple, you cannot solder anything to resin so it involves that horrible cop-out of using some sort of glue. (most of which do not work on resin - though still wouldn't use them) I tend to avoid all resin components if at all possible.

 

Just as you can't solder a new chimney on to a Bachmann/Hornby loco.  

 

People who can only use a hammer start to see everything as a nail.

[billbedford]

A good quality whiremetal casting made from a high grade alloy can be the equal of anything in the business.

 

But they also need good quality metal patterns. The number of people who are able or willing to produce such pattern has beed severely limited, and declining for all the time I have been in the business.

[coachmann]

An idea used in some quarters for years, good well detailed brass patters are relatively easy to produce if one starts by having component parts etched. This was how i made patterns for my latest range of coach bogies. Milliput too has its uses, as it withstands the heat used in mold making. 

 

I think I may have mentioned before my hatred for resin loco boilers. Once I found a way of getting cellulose to key to it, two other problems were there and there for life.......Static....it attracts dust like nobodies business, and expansion/contraction which is an on-going thing. Attach a resin boiler to a metal chassis and the boiler has to be allowed to float at one end like the real thing. If it is fixed then watch the running plate bow! Handrails have to be allowed to move inside handrail knobs. Paint them and watch the handrails bow, or just as bad, watch the unpainted bit of handrail that was inside the knob appear in a warm room and dissapear during the night. I painted one of the first all-resin locos for a manufacturer, a GWR half-cab Pannier Tank, and I spent half the week trying to remove the mold release agent or whatever it was that was acting like grease.

[JeffP]

And yet loads of people don't seem able to speak too highly of the likes of JLTRT, and the resin boilered Finney models, Mitchell kits?

[coachmann]

And yet loads of people don't seem able to speak too highly of the likes of JLTRT, and the resin boilered Finney models, Mitchell kits?

Yes I realize this. Is it perhaps a different plastic than the old milkybar stuff of the 1980s? Me and plastic don't get on anyway due to me setting up static in the material. I used to 'wipe' the insides of David Jenkinsons Plastikard coaches with Simoniz Anti-static furniture polish (!) to remove any static that had built up while I was lining them out. The static acted like a powerful magnet on enamel paint in my bow-pen and could draw it out of the pen from an inch away and splatter it all over a coach side. Cleaning it off set up even more static and this is why I asked David to keep his painter a closely guarded secret for thirty years..........I hates plastic to pieces!

[Jol Wilkinson]

I also believe that there is far too much myth spread about white metal. Horror stories about it melting for a start. The quality of castings does vary quite a lot, but I believe much of that is due to the desire of the kit producer to not renew molds or having poor quality (old) or lost masters. Resin seems to be used as a cheap alternative. We as modellers of course do not help by wanting the cheap option, and supporting the survival of kits that were badly designed (or simply past their usefulness).

 

Therein lies one of the problems with cast whitemetal as moulds do deteriorate with use. This is particularly noticeable with moulds for large items. At least with etched brass or n/s the tool doesn't deteriorate with use, so the etches remain consistent over the production period.

 

The enthusiam for "cheap" doesn't help either, as you point out.

 

While there are good w/m kits available, given the choice of one of those or an etched kit for the same model (even with a premium on the etched kit price) I will always opt for the etched version.

 

Jol

[Orinoco]

While there are good w/m kits available, given the choice of one of those or an etched kit for the same model (even with a premium on the etched kit price) I will always opt for the etched version.

 

Jol

 

As a general rule that is undoubtedly true. There are however also good and bad etched kits. A good cast kit may still be a better choice than a bad etched one - ref jidenco, some Peter K etc.

[t-b-g]

I know some excellent modellers who don't like using any material that they can't solder and I know others who will consider the use their soldering irons as a secondary source of warmth in the workshop but certainly not for making things stick together.

 

Perhaps the best balance is those who are happy using both methods.

 

I often think that by the time I have soldered 14 door vents and droplights onto a carriage I could have glued them in half the time!

 

Between our little gang we have several hundred built up loco kits. One or two were built 35 plus years ago when "superglue" first came out, using the new "wonder" adhesive. They are as good as the day they were made and took a fraction of the time that soldering or "5 minute epoxy" would have. 

[Guest Natalie Graham]

But they also need good quality metal patterns. The number of people who are able or willing to produce such pattern has beed severely limited, and declining for all the time I have been in the business.

 

Well yes, a casting is only ever going to be a copy of whatever the mould was taken from. A pattern is just a carefully made scratch-built item although you do need to give a fair bit of thought to where the mould joint is going to go and to making sure it is built without too much undercut so you can get the pattern (and the castings) out of the mould. Any competent scratch-builder should be able to... Ah yes, I see your point.

 

Inadvertently using low melt solder to assemble them doesn't help either.   <==The embarrassed voice of bitter experience. 

[Kenton]

I take it, then, you won't be tackling the Brassmasters Black Five any time soon?

 

Not if it has significant parts in resin as metal substitutes.

Just as you can't solder a new chimney on to a Bachmann/Hornby loco.

 

and I can't think of any possible reason why I would want to - Neither Bachmann/Hornby make metal kits as far as I am aware.

People who can only use a hammer start to see everything as a nail.

Just appropriate tool for the job, so I wouldn't be trying to knock a nail into wood with my forehead (the equivalent of joining metal to metal with glue)

[Jol Wilkinson]

As a general rule that is undoubtedly true. There are however also good and bad etched kits. A good cast kit may still be a better choice than a bad etched one - ref jidenco, some Peter K etc.

 

Agreed. Perhaps my experience is not typical as I have only had one bad etched loco kit but several poor w/m ones.

 

Mind you that was quite a few years ago when even my mediocre skills were not as well developed as they are today. Would I take a different view now? Somehow I doubt it as I don't think that w/m kits have developed very much, whereas there is now a much larger choice of etched kits. At least that's the case for LNWR models. In general etched kits have tended to improve, but the only real advance with w/m kits seems to have been the addition of etched chassis.

 

Would I buy a w/m SEF J69 or a LRM (ex Riceworks) etched version? A Gem LNWR Cauliflower or an LRM (ex George Norton) version? For me it's an obvious choice, even though those etched kits aren't the latest designs.

 

Jol

[Orinoco]

Agreed. Perhaps my experience is not typical as I have only had one bad etched loco kit but several poor w/m ones.

 

Mind you that was quite a few years ago when even my mediocre skills were not as well developed as they are today. Would I take a different view now? Somehow I doubt it as I don't think that w/m kits have developed very much, whereas there is now a much larger choice of etched kits. At least that's the case for LNWR models. In general etched kits have tended to improve, but the only real advance with w/m kits seems to have been the addition of etched chassis.

 

Would I buy a w/m SEF J69 or a LRM (ex Riceworks) etched version? A Gem LNWR Cauliflower or an LRM (ex George Norton) version? For me it's an obvious choice, even though those etched kits aren't the latest designs.

 

Jol

 

I am sure we are in agreement - however, the cast metal kits you mention are exceedingly old - I think I was probably in nappies when they were introduced (not telling you what I wear now ) - probably early 1970s? The etched kits you mention must have been mid-80s or later?

 

Some manufacturers still introduce cast kits from time to time, like South East Finecast, for example. I have seen some of the castings, but not actually built any recent ones. The castings do look far more refined than anything from my youth.

[coachmann]

I seem to recall the GEM 'Cauliflower' was in production before George M. and I became friends circa 1968, and so it is rather elderly now. The split boiler consisting of top and bottom instead of the usual LH and RH sides was unusual as was the absolute insistance on no rivet detail.  So yes, I agree a modern well designed etched kit should knock the old whitemetal kit into a cocked hat, though the 'Cauliflower' footplate would still require some care if every level was to remain truly horizontal. The part that irritates me and has obviously bothered other builders is the etched boilers that need rolling.

[JeffP]

Worse still are parts that need rivets pressing, THEN rolling.

You have to be careful not to squash your new rivets.

[Kenton]

The part that irritates me and has obviously bothered other builders is the etched boilers that need rolling.

Though not impossible without rollers, any kit producer worthy of the name should be supplying these pre-rolled to the customer - or at least as an option. (and to be fair most do)

 

Far worse a design fault is not supplying etched formers to wrap things around. Almost as if there is a world shortage of brass. sometimes even if pre-rolled it is all to easy to dent or twist such thihngs out of shape - and that doesn't only apply to boilers, diesel bonnets are another potential problem - no doubt many others.

[S.A.C Martin]

What is it with railway modellers and their aversion to resin? Almost every other hobby which involves making things uses resin, and again I think we're lagging behind, say, the wargamers in many respects in terms of materials and techniques.

 

Absolutely nothing wrong with using resin if it's carefully mixed and cast, cleaned and then built into a model carefully.

 

 

Cast resin smokebox door, made from a mould of the Bachmann original. Used to replace the later period smokebox door on the Bachmann Tornado, and thus backdate the A1 to the late 40s.

 

 

A reasonable portrayal of a Thompson A2/1 built from Bachmann V2 and A2 components, and Graeme King's excellent resin components.

 

I think we could go further as a hobby with resin by utilising 3D printing to make decent two piece moulds, thereby allowing us to custom manufacture components to build up into a whole locomotive body. The world is our oyster...

[Jol Wilkinson]

The part that irritates me and has obviously bothered other builders is the etched boilers that need rolling.

 

John Redrup of London Road Models rolls the boilers before putting them in the kit. In a couple of kits where the builder has to decide which marked holes to drill to get the version he wants, you are  invited to return the boiler for rolling. In a number of kits the boiler is thin wall brass tube, which is supplied  turned to length.

 

I can't see any reason why all manufacturers can't do that.

 

Jol

[James]

What is it with railway modellers and their aversion to resin?

Maybe the traditional, near model engineering take on loco construction? Methods which have worked in the past so why change? Plus it's a very manly thing to do, heating chunks of metal whereas it's a little bit girly sticking resin bits together....

 

Of course to say sticking resin is girly is just rubbish but railway modellers' aversion to new materials and techniques can sometimes be just as silly. There's nothing wrong with personal preferences but as a hobby we seem slow to embrace new materials. Some military kits feature resin and they are superb - though not cheap.

 

I think the simple answer is there have been appalling bits of Resin available to railway modellers - one look at a soapy Q Kits resin diesel body and it's enough to put you off resin for life!

[coachmann]

Maybe the traditional, near model engineering take on loco construction? Methods which have worked in the past so why change? Plus it's a very manly thing to do, heating chunks of metal whereas it's a little bit girly sticking resin bits together....

 

Of course to say sticking resin is girly is just rubbish but railway modellers' aversion to new materials and techniques can sometimes be just as silly. There's nothing wrong with personal preferences but as a hobby we seem slow to embrace new materials.

Generalisations and sweeping statements surely James. One well known professional builder has been using resin castings instead of whitemetal for at least 30 years......It's nothing new......It is merely another option! Using words like 'manly' and girlie' when referring to metal and plastics tells me you have a lot to learn before you to start passing judgement.

[Adrian]

Worse still are parts that need rivets pressing, THEN rolling.

You have to be careful not to squash your new rivets.

 

It's not too difficult if you use a sheet of plasticard - roll the boiler with a sheet of plasticard on the same side as the rivets.