The future of loco kit building

[Knuckles]

I'll keep it breif because having scouted through a few of these pages it seems almost everything is covered, but for what it's worth I'll opinionate.

 

So far I've only built one working kit, a brass locomotive, body and chassis, and I've also built a P4 chassis and abandoned the body.  The chassis is nickel silver and the body white metal.

 

Now as a newcomer to P4 I'd say some things are easier to build straight to P4 rather than convert a RTR example.  Some wagon kits and some loco's fall into this catagory but not all.  Because of the many different drive trains and suspension systems wanted by people I don't think kits would entirely die off becasue many RTR models are not a good basis for certain desires or needs, yet some are.  Some people like to start with a kit for a certain model as a beter basis to begin with, and others just like building them for the satisfaction; "I did that."  I don't think that will ever go awa, for, it's a form of fun and satisfaction, not to mention good modelling practice all round.

 

I will say this though, having seen the duff quality of many whitemetal kits (look at my latest E2 post 8!) I think it's safe to say that as a medium - those kints have well and truly ran their course.  I'd only reccomend them if there is no other option and so the medium I think is best suited to small boiler fittings, axlebox and spring castings etc - nothing else.

 

Brass and nickel silver I think have a future.  I find soldering to be much easier and better than using glue, and as a modelling medium those metals are suitable also giving a fine appearence. 

 

3D printing isn't my cup of tea yet, mainly becasue I cannot be bothered to learn 3D modelling only to then modelit AGAIN in real time, but we'll see.  Currently the resolution is a bit grainy too so once that's sorted maybe.

 

I don't like resin models becasue they suffer from the same problems as white metal in my experience - warpage.  I've never ever ever seen a Hornby Skaledale product that isn't bent in some area.

 

Ok, my 2 cents.

[Kev_Lewis]

I don't like resin models becasue they suffer from the same problems as white metal in my experience - warpage.  I've never ever ever seen a Hornby Skaledale product that isn't bent in some area..

 

You might want to have a little look at the Just Like The Real Thing website. All their coach and wagon kits are resin and having built several I've never seen anything warped.

 

I think warped Scaledale buildings may be a quality control issue rather than the material it self.

[coachmann]

Only just looked in on this thread again after an absence. Kirtley800 (Derek T.), yes I just about remember the MR '800' 2-4-0, which I think got painted around 1971-ish. But I definitely remember the MR 0-4-4 Well Tank, as you very kindly built one for me as well. I continued building loco kits for a living for a few more years, all whitemetal in those days, not something I have ever considered since though. Etched brass is better although a cast whitemetal boiler does have some advantages if it is well detailed and cast because of the weight it adds. I don't know what the future holds for anyone else but for me it looks to be building brass coaches unless some major development makes me redundant!

[James]

Back in 1961 I got a job in the Midlands. I had just finished my 3P and took into work to show a friend. He said he wished he could do something like that. We decided to have a go, so started a teaching session. I was in lodgings and was pretty free to do as I wanted..so off I went to his house every Wednesday evening for some loco building. We first decided on a Midland M class 0-6-0 since I had a drawing and that we would build one each.

 

I've just started to help a friend in a similar way - though in his case he can solder and use tools, it's more guidance with a few specific techniques he needs, just to give him more confidence. And he's not going to need any help for very long

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/45602-50a-york-leaman-road-mpd/page-49

 

I will say this though, having seen the duff quality of many whitemetal kits (look at my latest E2 post 8!) I think it's safe to say that as a medium - those kints have well and truly ran their course. I'd only reccomend them if there is no other option and so the medium I think is best suited to small boiler fittings, axlebox and spring castings etc - nothing else.

I wouldn't right of a material purely on one experience or two - whitemetal can be an excellent material. You only have to build a decent whitemetal kit to see how good it can be.

 

If you've built a poor kit it's likely that the metal is of poor quality and/or worn tooling. In the latter case a decent company should be replacing the rubber tools/moulds as part of a maintenance routine (though they can last many years) and providing the masters are intact the new moulds will revive the product completely. Poor quality metal is a quality issue and really should be nipped in the bud.

 

The problem is that poor kits and material put people off - shame really.

 

I think it's short sighted to right off the 'medium' - used intelligently it's a lovely material. You only have to see kits from talented people like Dave Alexander to see what can be achieved.

[mikemeg]

I started building etched locomotive kits, only about three years ago, though I did scratch build a few locos (a very few) prior to that and did a few r-t-r conversions to P4, which entailed building new chassis'. On starting to build etched kits I found that there was much that I needed to learn or improve, many techniques and approaches - not least my soldering, which was rudimentary at best. But with a little patience and a little detemination then those techniques and approaches, if not mastered were at least no longer 'black arts' to me.

 

Early on in this 'apprenticeship' I volunteered to help Arthur Kimber by test building some of his etched kits, under development, and this really did speed up the learning process. I'm still trial building these kits which is hugely enjoyable, though I do, often, have to build them with either a minimum of instructions or no instructions at all.

 

Arthur is developing kits of prototypes which would almost certainly never be produced by the r-t-r suppliers and even in kit form are unusual, to say the least. This one has, so far, taken about eight weeks, from beginning it, though I did build the chassis twice, having abandoned the first attempt.

 

Here's a photo of one of Arthur's latest developments - the NER Class S2/LNER B15. These were built 1911/12 and, to my mind, are just about as handsome a 4-6-0 as ever there was. Though I do know of one kit producer, who specialises in ex-GC locomotives and one of whose kits I am also building, who would probably disagree with this statement.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

[Rannoch Moor]

Quoting James, "I wouldn't right of a material purely on one experience or two - whitemetal can be an excellent material. You only have to build a decent whitemetal kit to see how good it can be." and

 

"I think it's short sighted to right off the 'medium' - used intelligently it's a lovely material. You only have to see kits from talented people like Dave Alexander to see what can be achieved."

 

 

I agree - I enoy both whitemetal and etched brass and whilst I am lucky enough never to have found a whitemetal one with build or metal quality "issues" I have found some good ones. The old NB models J37 built up beautifully I found with a mix of glue and solder techniques.

[Coach bogie]

 

 

I will say this though, having seen the duff quality of many whitemetal kits (look at my latest E2 post 8!) I think it's safe to say that as a medium - those kints have well and truly ran their course.  I'd only reccomend them if there is no other option and so the medium I think is best suited to small boiler fittings, axlebox and spring castings etc - nothing else.

 

Brass and nickel silver I think have a future. 

 Well that is one opinion.

 

As one who also builds model aircraft, there is a whole industry in resin that may not agree with you, and I certainly have had no issue with resin after sales parts (9,000 resin parts listed in Hannants catalogue). I have always been surprised that so few model railway cottage producers use resin. Based on one kit I have built, the PDK resin boilers are excellent in my opinion.

 

As for whitemetal, I think it is here to stay. The likes of 51L and David Geen produce the highest quality cast white metal kits and as a medium is most appropriate for the prototypes produced. As for use in locomotive kits, I prefer a cast boiler any day, to give valuable adhesion. Until recently there has been a tendency to etch everything with the result of complex multiple laminates when a casting would be more appropriate. Even Mitchell kits now offer cast substitute parts for the brass laminations to make construction more straight forward.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[Rannoch Moor]

 As one who also builds model aircraft, there is a whole industry in resin that may not agree with you, and I certainly have had no issue with resin after sales parts

 

As for whitemetal, I think it is here to stay. The likes of 51L and David Geen produce the highest quality cast white metal kits and as a medium is most appropriate for the prototypes produced. As for use in locomotive kits, I prefer a cast boiler any day, to give valuable adhesion. Until recently there has been a tendency to etch everything with the result of complex multiple laminates when a casting would be more appropriate. Even Mitchell kits now offer cast substitute parts for the brass laminations to make construction more straight forward.

 Mike,

 

Again agree - as a fellow aircraft modeller, the use of multi media kits that select appropriate materials be they polystyrene, etched metal or resin etc is a lesson that needs to be thought about (again?) by model railway kit makers.  I know DJH did it for their perhaps more entry level kits, but the use of castings might be better placed either for boilers, or for other parts that are less suited for etching (a la Mitchell as Mike says) - this adds to the buildability of a kit (essential to attarcting the less confident) without "dumbing down" for the more advanced builder. 

 

To continue the thoughts as to the future, there is clearly one for model aircraft, albeit on a worldwide scale which makes the massive cottage and accessory industry that supports it viable.  IMHO for UK railway kits to survive, they have to be buildable by a wide range of abilities so that a modeller who builds out of the box has a realistic, working loco (that is probably unlikely to be produced RTR) but can be detailed and/or painted and weathered to an infinitely (?) high standard by the few masters who will inspire we lesser mortals to have a go (and keep doing so).  As I said a while ago on this discussion, there are probably a fair few railway modellers out there in UK so a broad appeal I think is the key to success (I hope!).

[Guest Natalie Graham]

  Until recently there has been a tendency to etch everything with the result of complex multiple laminates when a casting would be more appropriate. Even Mitchell kits now offer cast substitute parts for the brass laminations to make construction more straight forward.

As the old saying goes,'Etch the flat bits and cast the fat bits.'

 

I am surprised resin isn't used more widely. In the model car world there are some fabulous resin cast models available. Maybe railway prototypes just aren't as suited to it..

[Jol Wilkinson]

Again agree - as a fellow aircraft modeller, the use of multi media kits that select appropriate materials be they polystyrene, etched metal or resin etc is a lesson that needs to be thought about (again?) by model railway kit makers.  I know DJH did it for their perhaps more entry level kits, but the use of castings might be better placed either for boilers, or for other parts that are less suited for etching (a la Mitchell as Mike says) - this adds to the buildability of a kit (essential to attarcting the less confident) without "dumbing down" for the more advanced builder. 

 

While castings have their place, the use of whitemetal for large components is not a good approach in my opinion. Large lumps of w/m don't usually cool evenly resulting in distorted components. Details such as rivet or bolt heads don't reproduce well and it isn't easy to fit etched wrappers around w/m to provide decent looking smokebox wrappers. I have yet to see or build a kit where a cast w/m boiler matches an etched version for appearance.

 

Resin castings work much better but have the drawback of low weight, a disadvantage for locos.

 

Producing computer aided artwork and getting etches made is relatively easy, whereas getting decent patterns and castings is often less straightforward. As a result parts are sometimes etched when they could be cast.  Just look at those kit "manufacturers" that have started by producing just etches and leaving it to the buyer to source the other bits elsewhere.  Likewise, some of the cast kits on the market would benefit from having some etched bits supplied to bring them up to date in appearance/accuracy.

 

Adding different types of materials to a kit also adds to the tooling costs. An etch tool for the n/s chassis, another for the brass, patterns and moulds for the lost wax brass, the same for cast nickel silver (slidebars and crossheads), likewise for the whitemetal castings, and so on. At a time when (in 4mm at least) RTR products are already relatively cheap, anything that adds to the production cost or complexity of a kit might be something the designer/manufacturer will try to avoid.

 

Jol

[billbedford]

As the old saying goes,'Etch the flat bits and cast the fat bits.'

 

I think 'Design it so it can be put together by 14 year old Chinese girls' is a better approach.

[Chris Higgs]

As the old saying goes,'Etch the flat bits and cast the fat bits.'

 

I am surprised resin isn't used more widely. In the model car world there are some fabulous resin cast models available. Maybe railway prototypes just aren't as suited to it..

 

resin is superb for reproduction. However it tends to have drawbacks that rule it out. These are what I have found from my largely 2mm range of kits (and the experience of others).

 

1. too light for loco boilers, need to be whitemetal.

2. too fragile for very small detail components

3. too thick for coach sides (in 2mm) - I love those Pete Waterman 7mm coach kits though

4, Good for coach roofs, but getting to the point where the production costs mean they cannot be sold for a profit. Probably worse in 4mm, and too heavy.

 

Add to that they mostly have to be produced in batches of 50-60, means they are difficult to keep in stock.

 

I suspect that model cars sell in much higher quantities then model trains?

 

Chris

[Sandy Harper]

1. too light for loco boilers, need to be whitemetal.

 

Not so Chris, The JLTRT resin cast smoke box/boiler/fire box units are impregnated with something which makes them quite heavy enough. I'm not sure what it is but I heard it was ground glass!

Sandy

[halfwit]

Smallbrook Studios impregnate their small resin wagon chassis with lead shot, which makes the chassis look like their made from spotted dick! Something that could work for loco boilers as well perhaps?

[JeremyC]

On the criticism that resin is too fragile for small detail parts, my sons are Games Workshop war games modellers. GW are now producing many of their models [including those previously in metal] in a flexible resin [their 'Finecast' range]. Even delicate parts like spears are cast in this material and from carefully testing one, yes they're flexible. The only disadvantage this material would seem to have for us railway modellers is it's described as being very light; so not much use for major parts like boilers.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/blogPost.jsp?aId=16700019a&_requestid=74277

 

Jeremy

[JeffP]

I wonder if the use of so much metal in model railway kits is because, by design, our kits need to MOVE and withstand wear and tear, handling, buffing etc?

 

How many model aeroplanes have to do the same? Or model cars?

[coachmann]

Whitemetal is excellent in the right hands, but the poor reputation it has aquired is through going through the wrong hands! Ralph Jackson (Jackson Evans) and I produced a range of 4mm and 6mm scale bus parts in whitemetal and the rubber maker & caster was, I was told, in the jewelry business. A bus roof in 6mm scale we had cast was amazing in having no shrinkage and hardly any miss-match. This same person cast my carriage bogies and they were brilliant.  However, those excellently made and cut moulds when in the wrong hands could still produce a boatload of flashy crap and so it all comes down to good patters, good mould maker and cutter, good whitemetal and good casting machine operator.

[Knuckles]

 

I wouldn't right of a material purely on one experience or two - whitemetal can be an excellent material. You only have to build a decent whitemetal kit to see how good it can be.

 

-

 

The problem is that poor kits and material put people off - shame really.

 

 

I'm not completely wrighting off the material as a medium, but as you correctly said, a poor kit puts people off, and I'll add first impressions are always hard to change.  I could have finished it already being 80% through but after reviewing the Hornby model decided it wasn't worth it.

 

I have heard that DJH's white metal kits are actually very good, so maybe there is hope for the relationship between white metal and me to be revived.  Only time will tell.

 

I still hold that for small items like axleboxes the material is best.

 

EDIT, to Mike Wiltshire (I haven't got used to adding multi quotes properly in one post so please bear with me):

 

 

Well that is one opinion.

 

As one who also builds model aircraft, there is a whole industry in resin that may not agree with you, and I certainly have had no issue with resin after sales parts (9,000 resin parts listed in Hannants catalogue). I have always been surprised that so few model railway cottage producers use resin. Based on one kit I have built, the PDK resin boilers are excellent in my opinion.

 

I'm only basing that opinion from minimal experience in the medium and as such will be more than happy to change once I've seen/experienecd otherwise. Regardless, it's safe to say my experience didn't instil much confidance within!

 

To Coachman:

 

Whitemetal is excellent in the right hands, but the poor reputation it has aquired is through going through the wrong hands!

 

 

Without trying to be a bighead, the progress I made on the E2 was the neatest example I have personally seen on that perticular product, and I've seen many examples online, so if I'm not wholly wrong about my own standard I don't think it's quite that easy to suggest all the problems are with the builder.  I'm probably going to be slated now for saying that but whatever; honesty and true expression is king in my book.

 

I think it should be taken by a case by case analysis, and so sometimes it's 'this' reason, othertimes it's 'that' etc.

[James]

Knuck, having looked at your blog the E2 looked a little rough in places - this is an observation of the metal itself and nothing whatsoever about your modelling! So I think you've had a poor experience - if a loco you want is available as a whitemetal kit, it may be worthy of further investigation, asking on here will probably get a lot of comment on it!

[coachmann]

  Quote by coachmann :-   Whitemetal is excellent in the right hands, but the poor reputation it has aquired is through going through the wrong hands!

 

 

 

 

Knuckles :-

Without trying to be a bighead, the progress I made on the E2 was the neatest example I have personally seen on that perticular product, and I've seen many examples online, so if I'm not wholly wrong about my own standard I don't think it's quite that easy to suggest all the problems are with the builder.  I'm probably going to be slated now for saying that but whatever; honesty and true expression is king in my book.

Don't know why I bother with plain English! The reference to "in the wrong hands" was clear and referred to the mould making and casting...Nothing to do with the purchaser or builder.

 

 

 

 

[Bernard Lamb]

As the old saying goes,'Etch the flat bits and cast the fat bits.'

 

Steady on.

When I said that the other day on another thread, the maker of the kit in question chucked his toys out of the pram.

Bernard

[Knuckles]

Don't know why I bother with plain English! The reference to "in the wrong hands" was clear and referred to the mould making and casting...Nothing to do with the purchaser or builder.

 

 

 

 

 

Wasn't clear to me!

Fair Enough.

[Chris Higgs]

1. too light for loco boilers, need to be whitemetal.

 

Not so Chris, The JLTRT resin cast smoke box/boiler/fire box units are impregnated with something which makes them quite heavy enough. I'm not sure what it is but I heard it was ground glass!

Sandy

 

JLTRT units are 7mm scale, and so 43 times the volume of my stuff. I can tell you (I know, I do loco kits in the scale) that in 2mm they would no way be heavy enough, even if mixed with other stuff. I have seen people cast heavy weights into what amounts to a resin skin, but the commercial firms are not not at all keen on the work that involves them with. And I am not convinced there is not going to be some problems later with chemical reactions, differential expansion or whatever else. The resin people tell me the stuff is inert once set, but it has not stopped me developing a sensitivity to it, probably because I used to mess around casting it myself.

 

Resin's other annoying tendency is to expand and contract quite a lot, and the end size is not 100% predictible. The pros who do my work tell me that even the ambient temperature on the day of casting can be significant. I tend to end up with roofs that vary between 2% smaller and 1% bigger than the master was. Which can cause issues if you are trying to match a cast roof precisely with an etched body.

 

In 2mm scale, some people claim even whitemetal is not heavy enough for smaller locos, and are found turning their boilers from exotic heavy metals - not normally lead, it is too soft.

 

Chris

[richbrummitt]

In 2mm scale, some people claim even whitemetal is not heavy enough for smaller locos, and are found turning their boilers from exotic heavy metals - not normally lead, it is too soft.

I presume I am thinking of the same person and he uses materials that are heavier than lead so it's also not heavy enough in his opinion?

 

I fell foul of a plastic body on a small loco. It pulls itself and five or six plastic wagons happily but it can struggle with just one etched coach and I filled all the usable space with squashed up lead sheet.

[Knuckles]

I didn't know we had anything heavier than lead. Awesome.