Hornby Announce Peckett W4 0-4-0ST

[Ruston]

I have been in touch with Andrew Smith, who compiled the IRS's Peckett book, and he agrees that it wouldn't have been painted as Hornby have done and is merely a trick of the light.

The "photographic grey" of Hornby's W/n 614 is also doubtful. The livery on the works photo looks the same as all the others and they weren't in photographic grey either. Some photos were retouched and on those with numbers, the numbers were added afterwards but that's as far as it goes.

That the numbers were added afterwards means that Hornby's 560 is another spurious livery.

 

But, hey, it's only an industrial and very few people would know and even fewer care. I just hope they don't make the same mistakes with anything GWR, or we'll never hear the end of it.

[cctransuk]

1 hour ago, Ruston said:

I have been in touch with Andrew Smith, who compiled the IRS's Peckett book, and he agrees that it wouldn't have been painted as Hornby have done and is merely a trick of the light.

 

Did Andrew comment on the dissimilar lining of the cab panels?

 

I can't get my head around that one!

 

John Isherwood.

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, Ruston said:

The "photographic grey" of Hornby's W/n 614 is also doubtful. The livery on the works photo looks the same as all the others and they weren't in photographic grey either.

 

But to my eyes the clincher for photographic grey is the matt finish - as seen on other manufacturers' photographic grey engines. Early photos of engines in service generally show a good shine.

 

What is the evidence that their works photos do generally show green livery? Is there documentary evidence (other than photos) that this is the case, around the turn of the century or earlier?

 

I suppose it's conceivable that Peckett & Sons' practice was to photograph engines in the standard green livery before varnishing but that does seem to me unlikely. 

[rope runner]

1 hour ago, cctransuk said:

 

Did Andrew comment on the dissimilar lining of the cab panels?

 

 

This is seen on a number of Peckett works photographs around the same time period and was likely a style they occasionally turned out. 

 

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

But to my eyes the clincher for photographic grey is the matt finish - as seen on other manufacturers' photographic grey engines. Early photos of engines in service generally show a good shine.

 

What is the evidence that their works photos do generally show green livery? Is there documentary evidence (other than photos) that this is the case, around the turn of the century or earlier?

 

I suppose it's conceivable that Peckett & Sons' practice was to photograph engines in the standard green livery before varnishing but that does seem to me unlikely. 

 

Let's be clear here - the works photograph of 882 depicts the loco in its working clothes and it is the same colour as the rest of the works shots from the era. The locos wear a leaf green livery, it's not really open to debate. 

 

The frames of some have been painted grey or red to aid photography for a classic "catalogue" shot. 

 

Paul A. 

[Compound2632]

Just now, 1whitemoor said:

The locos wear a leaf green livery, it's not really open to debate. 

 

I'm debating it! I don't doubt that leaf green was the standard livery; it's just self-evident to me that the works photos are in photographic grey.

[Ruston]

38 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I'm debating it! I don't doubt that leaf green was the standard livery; it's just self-evident to me that the works photos are in photographic grey.

You say that it is self evident but what, precisely, leads you to that conclusion? I'm not sure either way on the shot of Niclausse but on many of the works photos it is very doubtful, in my opinion, that they are shown in grey.

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, Ruston said:

You say that it is self evident but what, precisely, leads you to that conclusion? 

 

What leads me to that conclusion is comparison with the practice of other locomotive builders, both the trade and the railway companies, at the time. It was common practice to take an official photograph of record of a class member in a monochrome version of the final livery, as that avoided the problem of red-blindness of the photographic emulsions in use and also enabled details to be better seen. Such photographic grey livery was not varnished - after all, it wasn't intended to last. Random example from Beyer, Peacock & Co. So, the natural interpretation is that that would be the practice at the Atlas Works too. I think it needs rather strong documentary evidence to prove a deviation from the norm; I'm asserting photographic grey but I've only read the counter assertion leaf green, not any evidence to back that up!

[PenrithBeacon]

There are photos in photographic grey where the lining is not an accurate representation of the finished article. 

Just thought I'd throw that in, sorry. 

[adb968008]

I don't think anyone can call a shade of green in a black and white photograph.

The best case is resorting to local and industry best practice, and historical established knowledge, then interpreting it.

 

Grey is a well know colour in Black and White works photographs, in many countries.

But generally speaking, not every loco is painted fully lined grey for a works photograph.

 

In Pecketts case, theres a lot of repetition in works photographs, but they have a well established “factory” livery, which they all seem to wear in these photographs.

 

What is impressive is the life span of this livery.. 40+ years, if you look back over UK railway history, most liveries, since 1900 last a decade or so, aside of plain black.

 

I assume repetition in works photographs on same classes may originate in a desire to keep the works numbers closer to current, and maybe on request or improvements.

 

Would logic not suggest, therefore factory livery was used in works photographs ? That said exceptions could still apply.

 

But I default back to... it looks nice, and reflects a potential interpretation, thats well educated, just as Niclausse does. It could be worse, it could have smokey joe on the side.

Edited December 13, 2020 by adb968008

[Ruston]

Looking again through the entire book, some look to be in the standard livery and some have frames and other parts picked out in a light colour, probably grey. On the other hand, these things could have been done to the photographs and not the engines at all. We may never know for sure.

I am going to laugh at the first weathered 614 I see though.

[No Decorum]

13 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

What leads me to that conclusion is comparison with the practice of other locomotive builders, both the trade and the railway companies, at the time. It was common practice to take an official photograph of record of a class member in a monochrome version of the final livery, as that avoided the problem of red-blindness of the photographic emulsions in use and also enabled details to be better seen. Such photographic grey livery was not varnished - after all, it wasn't intended to last. Random example from Beyer, Peacock & Co. So, the natural interpretation is that that would be the practice at the Atlas Works too. I think it needs rather strong documentary evidence to prove a deviation from the norm; I'm asserting photographic grey but I've only read the counter assertion leaf green, not any evidence to back that up!

I would suggest that the reason the works grey wasn’t varnished was to avoid reflections.

[Compound2632]

5 hours ago, No Decorum said:

I would suggest that the reason the works grey wasn’t varnished was to avoid reflections.

 

Precisely so. 

[Paul.Uni]

Current release dates on the Hornby website:

Winter 2020-2021

• R3825 Peckett grey

Spring 2021

• R3702 'Daphne'
• R3703 'Bear'
• R3869 'Lady Cornelia'

Summer 2021

• R3761 'Lady Edith'
• R3868 Crawshay Brothers green

[ManofKent]

20 hours ago, Paul.Uni said:

Current release dates on the Hornby website:

Winter 2020-2021

• R3825 Peckett grey

Spring 2021

• R3702 'Daphne'
• R3703 'Bear'
• R3869 'Lady Cornelia'

Summer 2021

• R3761 'Lady Edith'
• R3868 Crawshay Brothers green

I was hoping Bear would  have been out this side of Christmas when I put in the Pre-Order.  Always difficult to know how popular each version will be, but as it's local to me it's the one I don't want to miss out on.

[Paul.Uni]

The Grey Peckett is now in stock on the Hornby website

[Caledonian]

I wish I could find it again, but I read recently a contemporary account describing how photographic grey was usually an emulsion with transfers temporarily stuck on. The man with the black box turned up and worked his magic, and then just as soon as the plate was approved, the grey emulsion was jetted off and it went back into the paint shop for finishing,

[Moxy]

43 minutes ago, Caledonian said:

I wish I could find it again, but I read recently a contemporary account describing how photographic grey was usually an emulsion with transfers temporarily stuck on. The man with the black box turned up and worked his magic, and then just as soon as the plate was approved, the grey emulsion was jetted off and it went back into the paint shop for finishing,

 

I'm sorry Stuart, but that doesn't ring true, emulsion is a much more recent inventions than 1890's.  I think if somebody is trying to claim that is a contemporary account, they are pulling the wool over our eyes.

 

Locos in the 1890's were hand painted & sign written.  I don't know when transfers came into use on trains (see Compound2632's reply below) , but emulsion paint wasn't invented until early C20th.  Also the paint would have to dry before you could put a transfer on it, and once emulsion paint is dry, it doesn't wash off. 

 

Ask British Rail & their 'Police' 37 from their 2008 TV advert.

 

That is what BR intended, they used emulsion so they could put it through a carriage washer to wash the paint off after the filming.  It didn't work, they had to send the loco back to Crewe to be repainted in BR Blue.

 

Edited in light of new info

Edited December 20, 2020 by Moxy
Edited in light of new info.

[Compound2632]

2 minutes ago, Moxy said:

Locos in the 1890's were hand painted & sign written.  I don't know when transfers came into use on trains,

 

Transfers were certainly in use by the 1880s for things like company coats of arms etc. on locomotives and carriages along with company lettering, class designations, and so forth. Lining would be done by hand.

Edited December 20, 2020 by Compound2632

[bigherb]

2 hours ago, Moxy said:

 

I'm sorry Stuart, but that doesn't ring true, emulsion is a much more recent inventions than 1890's.  I think if somebody is trying to claim that is a contemporary account, they are pulling the wool over our eyes.

 

Edited in light of new info

Whitewash is an emulsion paint and that is nowhere near a recent invention.

[Compound2632]

But the commonly-understood tale is that the grey was primer or undercoat anyway. 

[PhilJ W]

The GER put locomotives into service painted matt grey as an emergency measure during WW1. Would locomotive manufacturers deliver a locomotive in grey undercoat for the buyer to apply their own livery?

[Compound2632]

7 minutes ago, PhilJ W said:

Would locomotive manufacturers deliver a locomotive in grey undercoat for the buyer to apply their own livery?

 

Unlikely. The Midland issued detailed painting specifications as part of the contract documents - these can provide the best documentation for livery in general. By the 1890s the variations in lining seen from different builders' intepretations of the company's livery were a thing of the past. (The Midland was the largest of the pre-Grouping companies to make significant use of the locomotive building companies.)

[PhilJ W]

I was thinking of industrial locomotives. Like commercial motor vehicle makers used to offer a range of standard colours plus grey primer for those who wanted to paint their own livery.

[PaulRhB]

I guess it would depend on the company. How many would have their own paint shop / shed already to then paint it rather than the convenience of just getting it straight into service? Some larger industries with a fleet of railway stock might have the facility but a lot of these locos were going to small companies where it was just another transport vehicle to get to work as fast as possible. 
 

[Caledonian]

15 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Transfers were certainly in use by the 1880s for things like company coats of arms etc. on locomotives and carriages along with company lettering, class designations, and so forth. Lining would be done by hand.

 

The article [and this is what makes it more frustrating that I can't locate it] was accompanied by a photie showing what was obviously a lightly tacked on set of transfers