C&L Finescale

[Roger Sunderland]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but are you suggesting that I could purchase the parts from the likes of Peco to make up a B9 turnout on OO.  Some Flexi track and one turnout isn't really an alternative. 

​If Peco were the alternative then I wouldn't have ripped up several years work and spent the price of a car with C&L replacing it. ( and very glad I did) 

No. I did not say that at all. But because Peco have entered the market of more "realistic" looking track, and it will be widely and easily available, that will be enough for many people. I build my own track and, as I previously said, have been a big user of C&L. Ok so Peco won't allow you to build a B9 turnout, so I accept its not like for like but I think you are very dismissive of their contribution "some flexi track and one turnout". Double and single slips to be released by April 2018?

 

I agree that no one comes close in range size to C&L so it would be a great loss to the hobby if people got fed up with the customer service and went down another route (no pun intended).

 

I will now exit this discussion as, clearly, some people feel very emotive about the issue and the business owner. I hope it all pans out OK.

[Stephen Freeman]

As things stand the finescale societies won't do anything that would be in effect 'competing', but if C&L were to (hopefully not!) fail, then it'd be a different situation and something they'd have to give serious consideration to I'd expect, though whether they'd invest the sums for a full range like c&L offer is doubtful, but perhaps enough to make track building viable again in the hope someone else comes along. But it is all hearsay at this stage and Phil should be given more time to get things straight, he hasn't been at the helm long, and such things do take a fair bit of time usually (look at Pheonix Paints and the ranges they've bought as an example of how long it can take to get set up and going again).

No, I would think it would probably be someone who is already in the business of making track components but in a different scale.

[tender]

Double and single slips to be released by April 2018?

 

 

 

Is that a reliable source, or just wishful thinking?

[chris p bacon]

No. I did not say that at all. But because Peco have entered the market of more "realistic" looking track, and it will be widely and easily available, that will be enough for many people. I build my own track and, as I previously said, have been a big user of C&L. Ok so Peco won't allow you to build a B9 turnout, so I accept its not like for like but I think you are very dismissive of their contribution "some flexi track and one turnout". Double and single slips to be released by April 2018?

 

I agree that no one comes close in range size to C&L so it would be a great loss to the hobby if people got fed up with the customer service and went down another route (no pun intended).

 

I will now exit this discussion as, clearly, some people feel very emotive about the issue and the business owner. I hope it all pans out OK.

 

Without meaning for this to become adversarial but I posted that there wasn't any other range that compared and you suggested Peco. While they have upped their game with the new BH Flexi (which is very nice) the turnouts are in no way prototypical.  I know many are happy with what is proposed and I see it as a positive, but it's not really a comparison.

 

Re the bold -  I would say that you initially posted about 'delays in supply' and when asked, had not actually ordered from C&L or suffered any delay.  C&L isn't perfect at present but the new owner doesn't really deserve unwarranted criticism only genuine.

[hayfield]

Stephen,

 

the development of the C&L (and latterly the Exactoscale) range was a long and complex one. It also involved at least two people who were able to invest considerably in the development and tooling costs. I thing it unlikely that there is anyone here who would be willing to make that investment. Would the scale societies be willing to do it, if their Constitutions and funds allowed? I think it would be unlikely. Would those that build track professionally, Tony Wilkins, Norman Solomon, yourself and others to be willing or able?

 

Don't forget that we live in a time where increasingly people want things done for them, rather than a few years ago when people were willing to use their initiative, risk their own funds (as Phil has done) and start up businesses to provide better    products that they wanted and which there was a sufficient market to make it viable. Several of the product ranges we enjoy using to create more "finescale" models started in this way.

 

Jol

 

Jol

 

Agree with you 100%, I doubt if anyone would undertake making any further turnout components from injection moulding at this moment, mainly down to the set up costs required and lack of  sufficient potential retail sales. In addition with advances in 3D printing not far off

 

A bit further down the road is 3D printing, Off The Rails does it in a small way in 7 mm scale and there are those like Andrew Barrowman now breaking new ground. I had a chat with the Chap who owns Modelu at Stevenage, whilst during our chat he had not mentioned any plans to get into this area the quality of his printing is certainly up to those matching injection moulding. He stated that there is always progress in developing this method and the machines will develop to be able to make items quicker and cheaper as time goes by. I would guess new ranges will emerge once the cost of printing becomes more competitive. I would guess that they will be better that the injection moulded items we use today, but this is still a bit off time wise

[Stephen Freeman]

Alan (Modelu) already does some track related items, I'm not just sure how viable 3D printed chairs would be in 4mm scale - probably not enough flexibility to slide onto the rail without breaking but I could be wrong. Colour - at the moment Modelu prints the slide rail chairs in a fetching shade of signal red. There are of course many special chairs that aren't produced.

 

I'm not sure about Andrew Barrowman's approach either, I have reservations about the idea of a rail cap and how it will negotiate bends, such as at the Vee and curves in general.

 

I am keeping my eye on things though. It took me until last year to venture into the realms of 2D design for etching (courtesy of PPD) for some signalling parts in 7mm scale that I needed desperately. Might take a bit longer for me to get into 3D!

[martin_wynne]

Is that a reliable source, or just wishful thinking?

 

The 2018 bit seems reliable. I don't know about April: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/127840-peco-bullhead-points-in-the-flesh/page-29&do=findComment&comment=3013137

 

 

Martin.

Edited January 27, 2018 by martin_wynne

[Roger Sunderland]

Is that a reliable source, or just wishful thinking?

Well you can never say definite but local model shop says Peco have confirmed it.

[martin_wynne]

Matching the existing Peco geometry means the radius in the slips will be around 19.5" (495mm).

 

That's not a size any trackbuilder would likely build and is probably non-existent on the prototype for normal standard-gauge running. An outside slip would be used instead.

 

So although it may be exactly what Peco's customers are looking for and will be happy with, it's not a sensible alternative to the supplies available from C&L. Peco and C&L are not supplying the same market.

 

Martin.

[Greenmodelmonkey]

Jol

 

Agree with you 100%, I doubt if anyone would undertake making any further turnout components from injection moulding at this moment, mainly down to the set up costs required and lack of  sufficient potential retail sales. In addition with advances in 3D printing not far off

 

A bit further down the road is 3D printing, Off The Rails does it in a small way in 7 mm scale and there are those like Andrew Barrowman now breaking new ground. I had a chat with the Chap who owns Modelu at Stevenage, whilst during our chat he had not mentioned any plans to get into this area the quality of his printing is certainly up to those matching injection moulding. He stated that there is always progress in developing this method and the machines will develop to be able to make items quicker and cheaper as time goes by. I would guess new ranges will emerge once the cost of printing becomes more competitive. I would guess that they will be better that the injection moulded items we use today, but this is still a bit off time wise

For info Modelu have supplied me with some GWR slide chairs in 7mm and these are certainly very accurate even more so than Exactoscale versions. However they are very expensive compared to Exactoscale due to slow manufacturing process but the biggest problem is that they can't be fixed with a solvent so makes track building very difficult if not impossible as even super glue is just to hit and miss when trying to position chairs etc.

[Stephen Freeman]

Not sure about the expensive bit. The 4mm scale GWR 2 bolt chair are 10p each, so for 100 it is £10.00. C&L sell 100 4 bolt ones for £10.20. Perhaps it's a while since you looked at C&L's prices, they've gone up somewhat over the last couple of years.

 

Superglue - well yes but it's not that difficult, or at least I didn't find it so, I just wish he'd do something about the colour.

[Kelly]

For info Modelu have supplied me with some GWR slide chairs in 7mm and these are certainly very accurate even more so than Exactoscale versions. However they are very expensive compared to Exactoscale due to slow manufacturing process but the biggest problem is that they can't be fixed with a solvent so makes track building very difficult if not impossible as even super glue is just to hit and miss when trying to position chairs etc.

 

Have you given a good quality expoxy glue a try with these? It should give a very strong bond, where superglue can be a fragile bond at the  best of times.

[Greenmodelmonkey]

Have you given a good quality expoxy glue a try with these? It should give a very strong bond, where superglue can be a fragile bond at the  best of times.

Thanks for suggestion but not same as solvent for speed and invisible bonding so ABS chairs are still my preferred material.

[roythebus]

As an idea of tooling costs, many years ago I looked at doing a range of modern air-braked wagon kits in plastic. I done a lot of research, spent days climbing over and under wagons at Stonebridge Park (I worked on BR at the time ). But only had the finance to do one wagon, the VGA. going back to about 1985, the tooling for this wagon cost around £3500 plus VAT and took many months to complete. The tooling was reasonably simple, the difficult bits being the axle boxes and springs. Each "shot" for the kit costs maybe 50p, 2 shots per kit, and the kits retailed at about a fiver, so not a vast profit for me or the retailer or the wholesaler. I just about recouped my development costs over the 5000 or so kits that were sold.

 

Fast forward to track components, if patterns need to be made of dozens of different track fittings these days, I'd hate to think of the cost of someone making these in 4mm scale. OK, you only have to do one of each type, then that can by copied by spark erosion into any number in a mould, but the quality and cost of the mould have a lot of bearing on the mould life. A mould with say 10 chairs in will wear out quicker than a mould with 50 chairs in when you're making 10,000.

 

Anyone hoping to replicate the C&L range would have to make a significant capital investment in tooling costs alone and this isn't going to happen overnight. Has anyone here got deep enough pockets?

[Greenmodelmonkey]

As an idea of tooling costs, many years ago I looked at doing a range of modern air-braked wagon kits in plastic. I done a lot of research, spent days climbing over and under wagons at Stonebridge Park (I worked on BR at the time ). But only had the finance to do one wagon, the VGA. going back to about 1985, the tooling for this wagon cost around £3500 plus VAT and took many months to complete. The tooling was reasonably simple, the difficult bits being the axle boxes and springs. Each "shot" for the kit costs maybe 50p, 2 shots per kit, and the kits retailed at about a fiver, so not a vast profit for me or the retailer or the wholesaler. I just about recouped my development costs over the 5000 or so kits that were sold.

 

Fast forward to track components, if patterns need to be made of dozens of different track fittings these days, I'd hate to think of the cost of someone making these in 4mm scale. OK, you only have to do one of each type, then that can by copied by spark erosion into any number in a mould, but the quality and cost of the mould have a lot of bearing on the mould life. A mould with say 10 chairs in will wear out quicker than a mould with 50 chairs in when you're making 10,000.

 

Anyone hoping to replicate the C&L range would have to make a significant capital investment in tooling costs alone and this isn't going to happen overnight. Has anyone here got deep enough pockets?

 

Agreed so we are lucky that Phil has taken on this business as I doubt if anyone will be willing to invest in competing with existing range.

[delticfan]

Are c and l back up and running I’ve heard a few rumours of difficulties in ordering but they maybe just that rumours.

[tender]

Are c and l back up and running I’ve heard a few rumours of difficulties in ordering but they maybe just that rumours.

 

Yes, Yes, and No. (Yes they are up and running. Yes there have been some difficulties ordering, and No they are not rumours)

See: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/120571-cl-to-have-new-ownership/?p=2639815 for full details.

 

Should add that things seem to be slowly getting sorted, I received my order recently.

Edited January 30, 2018 by tender

[delticfan]

Ok thanks was about to embark on a small 7mm layout but didn’t want to use peco.

[Tim Dubya]

Anyone able to give turnaround times, I did ask on here before but got no response.

 

Just wondered whether it would be quicker to order direct or through EMGS stores.

 

TIA

[gordon s]

Anyone able to give turnaround times, I did ask on here before but got no response.

 

Just wondered whether it would be quicker to order direct or through EMGS stores.

 

TIA

 

 

I ordered 100m of rail on the 31st December, which was shown in stock.  Even allowing for the Christmas/New Year shutdown (they reopened on the 8th Jan) I would have expected delivery the following week.  It's now a month since ordering and paying in full.  I rang Phil a few days ago and he told me he was just finalising November orders and he was working his way through them.  I'm not unduly worried as I'm not track building right now and have 10m or so of rail left.

 

I would hope to see the rail delivered in the next 2 weeks, which would mean a 6 week lead time.  Allowing for the holidays etc, I would estimate lead time to be anywhere between 4-6 weeks right now.

 

I will update you once I receive the goods.

[purplepiepete]

I ordered 100m of rail on the 31st December, which was shown in stock.  Even allowing for the Christmas/New Year shutdown (they reopened on the 8th Jan) I would have expected delivery the following week.  It's now a month since ordering and paying in full.  I rang Phil a few days ago and he told me he was just finalising November orders and he was working his way through them.  I'm not unduly worried as I'm not track building right now and have 10m or so of rail left.

 

I would hope to see the rail delivered in the next 2 weeks, which would mean a 6 week lead time.  Allowing for the holidays etc, I would estimate lead time to be anywhere between 4-6 weeks right now.

 

I will update you once I receive the goods.

 

 

Make that at least 8 weeks - I have been waiting for an order since the 1st Dec (and it's only rail and chairs) !

[purplepiepete]

Anyone able to give turnaround times, I did ask on here before but got no response.

 

Just wondered whether it would be quicker to order direct or through EMGS stores.

 

TIA

 

 

For info the topic has moved (in depth) to this forum 

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/127088-ordering-from-cl/page-9&do=findComment&comment=3022352

[Tim Dubya]

Cheers for the replies guys. EMGS Stores it is then.

[LBRJ]

Oh dear, I was linked to here hopefully for some enlightenment on matters pertaining to the simple ( I thought!) matter of how things are re: C&L - I seem to have found the usual arguments for and against about trivial this and that minutiae creating a fog of indecision. Does it always have to be like this?

 

Ill read the whole thread and see if anything of use comes out of it, I only want to buy some things with an expectation of getting them sometime soon.

 

for the record I have bought these things since K&L did modelcarft bricks from a trading estate in Essex, so Im not a total newb

[purplepiepete]

Cheers for the replies guys. EMGS Stores it is then

 

This may be your best route, however I better qualify that my order was for 7mm items. Whether or not this makes a difference I am unclear. It would be very helpful if Phil clarified the situation on the web site home page. I have spoken to him about improving communications but so far it's just a bit too 'vague'. No one would expect to publicly advertise the fact that a business

is having supply difficulties, however to my way of thinking keeping your customers 'on board' is critical to continued success. I hope that things do turnaround as I, like many others, have depended on C&L and previous companies for the last 20 years.