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Dick Turpin

Hornby Princess Coronation Class (Duchess)

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Um, there are paint specifications in the NRM archieve I believe. There are also in some cases paint samples (e.g. LMS Crimson used to match 6229). The challenge comes with scaling that colour, but to say 'nobody can be sure' is not correct.

Agree though Coachmans post showing the four model coaches each painted with the same paint but portraying radically different shades does underline the point that this is a particularly hard hue to nail down. 

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LMS_Coronation_Class

Re- livery, and those painted in red from December 1957, during the discussion here a few days ago, I thought I'd read it somewhere about the two shades of 'maroon' painted at the beginning, but the decision was taken that as the locos went thro' shops 1960/1(?), those in the lighter shade were to be repainted to the darker shade to match  that used on the coaches. Do you think I could find it, but this wiki page will do, I know that wiki some times can be questionable, but it matches what I'd read elsewhere, if you've seen it before please ignore. :sungum:  

edit - work yer way down to BR Livery list, and click on 'show'.

Edited by bike2steam

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LMS_Coronation_Class

Re- livery, and those painted in red from December 1957, during the discussion here a few days ago, I thought I'd read it somewhere about the two shades of 'maroon' painted at the beginning, but the decision was taken that as the locos went thro' shops 1960/1(?), those in the lighter shade were to be repainted to the darker shade to match  that used on the coaches. Do you think I could find it, but this wiki page will do, I know that wiki some times can be questionable, but it matches what I'd read elsewhere, if you've seen it before please ignore. :sungum:  

edit - work yer way down to BR Livery list, and click on 'show'.

 

Either I'm looking in the wrong place, or you misread Wiki - but I see nothing about two shades of red in the BR livery section.

 

Two styles of lining, yes - but not two shades of red.

 

In the livery sample drop-down, the red is the same for both lining styles - cover up the lining and you'll see what I mean.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

Edited by cctransuk

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Either I'm looking in the wrong place, or you misread Wiki - but I see nothing about two shades of red in the BR livery section.

 

Two styles of lining, yes - but not two shades of red.

 

In the livery sample drop-down, the red is the same for both lining styles - cover up the lining and you'll see what I mean.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

As you say, by covering up the lining, I'll concede that point - proven wrong oopps.

Edited by bike2steam

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Um, there are paint specifications in the NRM archieve I believe. There are also in some cases paint samples (e.g. LMS Crimson used to match 6229). The challenge comes with scaling that colour, but to say 'nobody can be sure' is not correct.

Paint samples which are now aged so how representative of the original colour are they?

 

How consistent were the various batches of paint mixed by the LMS and BR? Were they absolutely consistent?

 

As you say, scale colour adds a whole new range of opinion.

 

These colour arguments rage on year after year for both models and for prototype restorations.

 

 

The discussion already in this thread proves my point, there is considerable disagreement about what looks right. Whatever Hornby chose, some will say it's wrong.

 

.

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brm267-colourrail-image-for-r3555.jpg

 

the crewe ex-works image from Hornby's website

 

. . .

 

(Whats on the tender axle box cover closest to the footplate ?)

This question has been bugging me since I first read it. I have looked in the RCTS book on The Stanier Pacifics and seen three photographs of axleboxes with a similar fitting but without the coverplate in the posted picture. Captions to two of the photographs state that the coverplates of the axleboxes are missing. It is presumptuous of me to differ from the erudite author but I think there is more to it than this.

 

There is a very clear picture of such a tender axlebox on page 230 and from this it seems to me that a coverplate could not be fitted over the protruding article. If memory serves me, the axlebox covers painted yellow with a red stripe indicate that the axlebox is sealed and does not require checking or topping up. From the RCTS picture, it looks as if the sealed lubrication system has, for some reason, been replaced by a conventional oil or grease reservoir with a hinged lid. I suspect that this is what appears in the posted picture but, in this case, it has been attached to the coverplate instead of replacing it.

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Guest Midland Mole

On the topic of paint colours being "right", my boss told me an interesting story once. During the 80s, a fellow modeller told him that all the locos and coaches he had painted BR Blue were the wrong colour. He was adamant about it right up until my boss told him that the paint he was using was the actual BR Blue paint from Crewe Works (where he worked at the time) that was used to paint the real locos and coaches on the national network. The other chap said nothing after that. :D

 

Alex

Edited by Midland Mole
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It's City of Salford, that's why the person you quoted went and reacted like that, you misspelled part of 46257's name.

That's understandable, after all the real City of Manchester was spelt wrong,

 

It's name is supposed to be "City of Munchessterrr"

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When it comes to railway colours, the arguments you guys put forward are unbelievable at times. I expect all professional painters ignore the worlds favourite toy train forum. I should too!   :banghead:

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On the topic of paint colours being "right", my boss told me an interesting story once. During the 80s, a fellow modeller told him that all the locos and coaches he had painted BR Blue were the wrong colour. He was adamant about it right up until my boss told him that the paint he was using was the actual BR Blue paint from Crewe Works (where he worked at the time) that was used to paint the real locos and coaches on the national network. The other chap said nothing after that. :D

 

Alex

 

And the reason BR stopped using it was that it did not weather well after prolonged exposure to the elements and quickly faded in any case.....proving there's no such thing as the "right" shade of blue...

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And the reason BR stopped using it was that it did not weather well after prolonged exposure to the elements and quickly faded in any case.....proving there's no such thing as the "right" shade of blue...

No, there is a right shade of blue Ian. What happens to it after it has been applied is something else completely. This is where people go up the garden path. Throughout railway history there has been the search for the colour that is applied new. When Wiliamsons and Masons supplied colour samples, they supplied them with new paint. So when you read a book on railway liveries, don't expect to find references to the shade after three weeks, after it has been cleaned with oily rags, what it looks like a person has a colour cast in his left eye, when locos work by the seaside or when Uranus is in conjunction with the Sun. 

 

The NRM and the heritage lines that take railway liveries seriously have managed perfectly well over the years and all have benefited from research by a number of dedicated people, many of them no longer with us. 

Edited by coachmann

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I think there is another subtlety that people forget. Many traditional pigments fall foul of modern ROHS rules. Lead, Mercury or Cadmium compounds for example. You may be able to get close to the "right shade" using modern pigments in environmentally acceptable paint base, but all bets are off when you start comparing things after a while out in the sun and the rain.

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Is anyone able to confirm that the model of 46256 will be produced with a pivoting rear truck, as per prototype? I can fully understand a fixed truck on the cartazzi fitted locos, but would not be impressed if a rear bissel truck were to be modelled in a fixed position.

 

Richard.

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All indications are that it will be fixed truck, flangeless wheel as supplied: take a look at the pics on Hornby's site and the truck wheelset looks flangeless. This is now established as Hornby's one size fits all solution to the problem of getting a big loco round set track radii, and the best offer has been an alternative flanged replacement wheelset in the box.  If you track back over about the last four pages in this thread this has been chewed over.

 

My take on this is that it will be a DIY job to make a running model with a flanged wheelset, had to do this on all the 'fixed truck' Hornby pacifics I own. Now, given that on all the Britannias I have seen, the flanged wheelset doesn't actually fit inside the truck casting and yet online complaint about this is absent - at least I don't recall any - Hornby don't have any customer pressure to persuade them to deviate from their chosen method...

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So people want a swinging rear truck because it is prototypical. Shouldn't this be on the Jokes thread...? 

 

How do they square this cock-eyed ideology with sending a bloomin' great Duchess flying around their grossly un-prototypical curves and even trainset curves....?  

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So people want a swinging rear truck because it is prototypical. Shouldn't this be on the Jokes thread...? 

 

How do they square this cock-eyed ideology with sending a bloomin' great Duchess flying around their grossly un-prototypical curves and even trainset curves....?  

 

Larry,

 

BECAUSE it's prototypical - and because it would be easier for Hornby than not doing.

 

As I have pointed out here - twice - and to Hornby - it is surely easier to produce and fit a standard pivotting rear truck and lock it in place with an extra screw for those who are radii-challenged.

 

ALL the model producers provided pivotting rear trucks until vey recently. They stated - regularly - that this was necessary to get Pacifics round small radii, even when the subject was a Gresley Pacific that SHOULDN'T have a pivotting truck.

 

Now we have the ludicrous situation whereby locos that should have pivotting trucks are being provided by Hornby withy fixed trucks - allegedly to get them to negotiate small radii.

 

Pull the other one, Hornby !!! :nono:

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

Edited by cctransuk

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Larry,

 

BECAUSE it's prototypical - and because it would be easier for Hornby than not doing.

 

As I have pointed out here - twice - and to Hornby - it is surely easier to produce and fit a standard pivotting rear truck and lock it in place with an extra screw for those who are radii-challenged.

 

ALL the model producers provided pivotting rear trucks until vey recently. They stated - regularly - that this was necessary to get Pacifics round small radii, even when the subject was a Gresley Pacific that SHOULDN'T have a pivotting truck.

 

Now we have the ludicrous situation whereby locos that should have pivotting trucks are being provided by Hornby withy fixed trucks - allegedly to get them to negotiate small radii.

 

Pull the other one, Hornby !!! :nono:

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

That's all well and good, but people complained more about the unprototypical appearence of those earlier pacifics than complain about the fixed truck now. So basically they are damn if they do and damned if they don't.

 

Personally i see no issue with them as they now are, if anyone has an issue they can always modify it of they so wish. That's what modellers do right? Hornby are designing and building these to a budget, to sell them to us at a reasonably cheap price. In OO there will always be comproimse and this is what they feel is the best bet for Pacific locos. They seem to sell extremely well and if there was a call to change to pony truck arrangement it's obviously minimal as they have not changed them this new design for over a decade.

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That's all well and good, but people complained more about the unprototypical appearence of those earlier pacifics than complain about the fixed truck now. So basically they are damn if they do and damned if they don't.

 

Personally i see no issue with them as they now are, if anyone has an issue they can always modify it of they so wish. That's what modellers do right? Hornby are designing and building these to a budget, to sell them to us at a reasonably cheap price. In OO there will always be comproimse and this is what they feel is the best bet for Pacific locos. They seem to sell extremely well and if there was a call to change to pony truck arrangement it's obviously minimal as they have not changed them this new design for over a decade.

 

Not changed in a decade? They were producing pivotting rear trucks for half a century !!

 

Have a look at their range of Pacifics - how many should have pivotting trucks and how many fixed?

 

A pivotting rear truck, fitted with two screws and a flangeless wheelset, is a fixed truck - and everybody is happy.

 

Unfortunately, the reverse is not true.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

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Most views of the final two 'Princess Coronation' class locomotives show very clearly the mainframes behind the trailing truck and under the firegrate.  Within the frames is the ashpan. In order to have a swinging bogie, as some people are asking for on their model, it doesn't take much imagination to show that a massive chunk of mainframe and ashpan has to be removed to allow side play as well as up & down movement of the wheels.....Vitally important to those who run their model train on the carpet! I jest not. The end result of such a modification would be gaping open space of daylight around the wheels, which is far from prototypical. I think that people have simply not thought it through. Fortunately, Hornby has and is using an eminently sensible work around that should suit everyone.

 

The prototype is probably designed ot negotiate a minimum radius of 6 chains or 4½ chain dead slow. Railways rarely go below six chains radius and even this is most often found in sidings. To put this into perspective, it is the equivalent of 5ft 2½ inches radius in 4mm scale. Many modellers think they are doing well with 3ft radius curves and in toyland 17½ inch radius is routine!

 

I hope these tiny details shed some light.

 

PS: I started typing this some time ago so it is not a response to any single individual.

Edited by coachmann
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... if there was a call to change to pony truck arrangement it's obviously minimal as they have not changed them this new design for over a decade.

 Much as I agree with John Isherwood that a superior design capable of satisfying all parties is eminently possible (and this was brought to Hornby's attention shortly after the Gresley pacifics appeared with the fixed flangeless arrangement in 2004/5) they have absolutely no significant customer pressure toward making such a change.

 

I say this confidently, repeating what I posted earlier. The flanged wheelset supplied with the Britannias, will not even fit inside the rear truck casting on all the 2006/7 examples I have seen! It has been necessary to cut significant clearance inside the rear truck casting to first admit the wheelset and then prevent an instant short circuit. Online comment on this matter in my recollection - none. So the customers are not interested, and DIY it has to be.

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 Much as I agree with John Isherwood that a superior design capable of satisfying all parties is eminently possible (and this was brought to Hornby's attention shortly after the Gresley pacifics appeared with the fixed flangeless arrangement in 2004/5) they have absolutely no significant customer pressure toward making such a change.

 

I say this confidently, repeating what I posted earlier. The flanged wheelset supplied with the Britannias, will not even fit inside the rear truck casting on all the 2006/7 examples I have seen! It has been necessary to cut significant clearance inside the rear truck casting to first admit the wheelset and then prevent an instant short circuit. Online comment on this matter in my recollection - none. So the customers are not interested, and DIY it has to be.

That sounds most curious. I fitted the flanged wheels to my Britannia (70050 Firth of Clyde) and Clan (72008 Clan MacLeod) with no problem. To fit them to my A4 (4498 Sir Nigel Gresley) I carved away some spacing pieces moulded into the plastic trailing truck. Hornby seems to be making matters worse – I looked with dismay at the trailing truck of 21C3 Royal Mail, which is a huge chunk of metal that I wouldn’t dare accost. It is a shame in an otherwise very fine model.

 

In the case of the air-smoothed Merchant Navies, it is the only model on the market. In the case of the Duchesses, I might just make do with my ancient versions. Perhaps I might go for an Ivatt but then again, I might not.

 

As for colour, I know all the arguments. I have little doubt that the colour Hornby has chosen resembles the colour seen on a Duchess at one time, likely a heavily overcast day. However, I suspect that if we look at the Hornby shade in sunlight, it won’t ever look as light as the real thing did in sunshine. Bearing in mind too that the finish is meant to be pristine, not faded.

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In OO there will always be comproimse and this is what they feel is the best bet for Pacific locos.

Surely this particular issue is more about small radii than about OO?

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I just wish they would still provide the spare flanged wheel set for those of us that don't have "train set" curves.

 

 

My A4 and BoB had one provided. But the recent MN didn't.

 

 

 

Jason

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Surely this particular issue is more about small radii than about OO?

No doubt, but like i said, Hornby and all the OO manufacturers cannot please everyone with every design choice they make. People have long wanted more accurate looking models, they get them and yet aren't happy with the design compromises to achieve it. As you said, they need to go around small radii set track curves, as well as look like an exact as possible miniature version of the real thing. The advancements we have seen in the last 20 years have been brilliant but again, nothing is perfect and to please everyone as much as possible, this is what Hornby thinks is the best solution to this problem.

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 Much as I agree with John Isherwood that a superior design capable of satisfying all parties is eminently possible (and this was brought to Hornby's attention shortly after the Gresley pacifics appeared with the fixed flangeless arrangement in 2004/5) they have absolutely no significant customer pressure toward making such a change.

 

I say this confidently, repeating what I posted earlier. The flanged wheelset supplied with the Britannias, will not even fit inside the rear truck casting on all the 2006/7 examples I have seen! It has been necessary to cut significant clearance inside the rear truck casting to first admit the wheelset and then prevent an instant short circuit. Online comment on this matter in my recollection - none. So the customers are not interested, and DIY it has to be.

 

I accept that those of us that would like a fixed trailing truck that could easily be made to pivot are in a minority. I am merely making the point that, using their old approach to the problem, Hornby could produce locos that would satisfy all of us.

 

With my Bulleid Light Pacifics, I cut with a piercing saw along the line of the upper interface between the dummy trailing truck and the ashpan, and used one of the two axle retaining screws as the pivot. On sensible radii and decently laid track, there are no problems in running without short-circuits.

 

How much more difficult would it be for Hornby to mould the truck as a separate casting, and double screw it in place to hold a non-flanged axle - fixed truck. Remove one screw and swap the wheels - pivotting truck.

 

It ain't going to happen, though - Hornby can be very single-minded once they set themselves on a particular course, even when it is not the optimum solution !

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

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