BBC article - Average age of UK trains

[Steamport Southport]

Reminds me of a newspaper article that was highlighted in Steam Railway a few years ago.

 

It was discussing an accident that happened in the 1950s and it described the locomotive as an "old steam train" and that it's age was the reason for the accident. The locomotive was brand new at the time.

 

 

Jason

[Geoff Endacott]

What is meant by average? Mean? Mode? Median?

 

Meaningless...

 

Geoff Endacott

[phil-b259]

This seems to be happening already, with new traction equipment being fitted to some of the older EMU classes (455/465/466).

That is more to do with energy efficiency savings than anything else. The trusty EE traction motors found the likes of the 455s may be basic - but that means they are simple to repair as its a case of simple old fashioned engineering e,g. re-wiring armatures etc.

 

The exception is the Networkers - but these were very much at the forefront of AC drive technology and as with all pioneer technology, it's not as good as once it has been matured. This is demonstrated by the fact that the original Networkers were banned from opperating over a particular type of track circuit (hence the little "No Networker" signs where the Brighton and Kent lines separated at Bermondsey) - yet the similarly AC drive technology equipped Electrostars had no such restriction.

 

The obscelance issue by contrast is a big issue for stuff that uses high tech electronics as microprocessor technology evolves rapidly - with older chips ceasing to be made. It's a big problem for signalling kit too - BRs SSI became rapidly unsupportable in the late 90s / early 2000s because the necessary microprocessors simply couldn't be bought on the open market as the manufacturers had long since moved on three or four generations. Thus the only way replacement chips can be had for BR SSI installations is ones removed from interlocking that have been renewed by the latest generation SmartLoc / WestLoc interlockings (which can still communicate with BR designed SSI trackside modules).

[ben racey]

The Guardian has a fairly typical misrepresentation of this. MerseyRail and Caledonian Sleepers are apparently using stock up to 37 and 41 years old, respectively, although as both are scheduled for replacement in the near future (and as stated above, this is basically the end of their intended service lives) I'm far from clear what their actual point might be.

 

I can't dispute that travelling on the sundry multiple units that rattle sporadically between ECML and various East Coast destinations isn't much fun, but they aren't intended to be luxury travel and are all well within their service lives. The ongoing use of 125 HST from the 1970s - which surely must be long past their sell-by dates - doesn't seem to rate a mention, presumably because they have no replacements?

 

I agree with most of your points, but not sure what you mean by your last sentence? Most of the HSTs will be replaced in fairly short order now with IEPs. The exceptions being the pocket HSTs for Scotrail.

 

Cheers for now.

 

Richard.

[robertcwp]

That is more to do with energy efficiency savings than anything else. The trusty EE traction motors found the likes of the 455s may be basic - but that means they are simple to repair as its a case of simple old fashioned engineering e,g. re-wiring armatures etc.

 

The exception is the Networkers - but these were very much at the forefront of AC drive technology and as with all pioneer technology, it's not as good as once it has been matured. This is demonstrated by the fact that the original Networkers were banned from opperating over a particular type of track circuit (hence the little "No Networker" signs where the Brighton and Kent lines separated at Bermondsey) - yet the similarly AC drive technology equipped Electrostars had no such restriction.

 

The obscelance issue by contrast is a big issue for stuff that uses high tech electronics as microprocessor technology evolves rapidly - with older chips ceasing to be made. It's a big problem for signalling kit too - BRs SSI became rapidly unsupportable in the late 90s / early 2000s because the necessary microprocessors simply couldn't be bought on the open market as the manufacturers had long since moved on three or four generations. Thus the only way replacement chips can be had for BR SSI installations is ones removed from interlocking that have been renewed by the latest generation SartLoc / WestLoc interlockings (which can still communicate with BR designed SSI trackside modules).

And 97 of the Networkers (Classes 465/0 and 465/1) have had new Hitachi equipment fitted recently, which has apparently transformed their reliability.

[Davexoc]

Wasn't thinking so much in terms of traction equipment, what I had in mind was more the slightly more modern trains where everything is managed via an onboard computer. For example, do the Electrostars still run on Windows ME?

 

I know obsolescence (in terms of the ability to do the job every day) isn't as much an issue there as it would be for a home or office PC as on a train it's doing a strictly defined set of things that it was designed to safely do, but we don't really have any way of telling whether the underlying electronics that run the programming will survive the life of the train.

 

In some ways you're almost talking about a 40 year old portable PC with a train attached!

 

I also have in mind modern cars, where it's not that unusual these days to hear of otherwise mechanically sound cars being scrapped because the engine management (or whatever) module has gone, and replacing the aged electronics will cost more than the car is worth - big change from when it used to be engines and gearboxes that did that! With a car having a design life of maybe 10 years versus a train's 40 - is this predicting what will happen to the trains of the last decade or so in time?

I've always found that industrial PCs are a generation or two behind. Back in 1999 I was given a CD-ROM of the latest software to load on my Windows 98 laptop. When it wouldn't install I opened the 'readme' file to find out that it might not work on machines running Windows 95 or later, but was OK with Windows 3.1. The manufacturer, Siemens. I wonder what all those Desiros running around have under the bonnet?

 

The average age of British Airways fleet of 747s and 767s is 21 years. I thought you might want to know that.

But the average age of a 737 or Airbus equivalent will be much much lower. The utilisation these days means that the airframes of aircraft used on shorthaul flights ages them very quickly.

 

Dave

[stovepipe]

 

As for the Guardian, well, anything with wheels which isn't capable of throwing dinner parties in Islington seems to be fair game these days...

I don't know what the Guardian has to do with it - very similar reports are being carried across several news sources including the Daily Mail.

 

The original research has been carried out by think tank IPPR North and any 'journalism' associated with what amounts to a press release seems to come directly from IPPR.

 

To be fair, average age is a statistic the government and the railway press have used since the 1980s. I'm sure a methodology for its calculation could be found if one was sufficiently interested.

[jjb1970]

The problems of supporting plc controlled hardware through life has been a recurring horror story for probably more than 20 years. Whilst the problems are real, and solutions can be expensive, industry has tended to be quite succesful in providing solutions. I remember being told that once a digital engine control system for large diesel and GT engines was no longer supported then it'd force a full engine replacement and the commercial risk was engine threatening. In practice manufacturers have provided support for longer than was forecast by the critics and even if support is withdrawn replacement control systems have been retrofitted at costs which although I wouldn't want to pay for have not been the enterprise threatening disaster we were assured of. I worked at a CCGT where the DCS and individual unit controls were replaced with the plant remaining in service for all but a handful of days when they swapped over the DCS by doing one unit at a time, while it was expensive I have to admit that having done the budgets for the plants GT overhaul outages it wasn't that expensive in the context of a large power plant engineering budget.

[rockershovel]

I agree with most of your points, but not sure what you mean by your last sentence? Most of the HSTs will be replaced in fairly short order now with IEPs. The exceptions being the pocket HSTs for Scotrail.

 

Cheers for now.

 

Richard.

I wasn't aware of the forthcoming replacements for HSTs. Shame, they were real innovations when introduced, have given great service and the electric HST on ECML are notably inferior in terms of comfort

[cal.n]

I agree that we shouldn't simply judge quality of stock purely by age, I would much rather be on a 1975 built MK3 than a 1985 built 142 Pacer or a 2005 voyager and I think it is wrong to shame the Caley Sleeper and Virgin Trains East Coast (who are both replacing stock with brand new stuff within the next two years) when they provide a much better service than someone who operates second gen DMUs and Pacers (arriva wales and arriva northern) or Southern.

 

I think it's wrong that the article doesn't at least mention that it isn't as simple as new stock good, old stock bad.

[Nearholmer]

I wonder whether this statistic might have got onto the KPI-list of the ORR or the DfT way back when Roger Ford made a very sound point by simply reporting, every month, how many days/weeks/months/years it had been since a new train had been ordered/delivered.

 

There was, after all, a long period when the British train fleet simply got older, and older, and older, largely due to a lack of focus on the genuine basics in the early post-privatisation period, rather than actual lack of money.

 

So, yes, as an isolated number, if it is about half a train-life, it is unexiting, but if it were to steadily increase, year after year, that would actually be significant, in an "its worth looking further into what isn't going on here" kind of way.

 

(by the way, it does seem a bit odd that it excludes London Underground, which owns rather a lot of trains, and accounts for nearly as many passenger journeys as the entire national network ..... 1.3bn vs 1.65bn per annum, roughly ....... ok, short journeys, I grant)

 

Kevin

[royaloak]

 I wonder what all those Desiros running around have under the bonnet?

 

Dave

I think the 444 and 450s are running Windows 95.

[caradoc]

My first thought on reading the BBC News article was (like many others I suspect) 'So what ?' Some of the oldest trains in service today are the HSTs and as has been said before these still provide excellent travel quality. Again, as has been said above, some of the oldest trains will soon be replaced; Scotrail's oldest EMUs, the Class 314s, are about to displaced by brand new Class 385s; For some of the routes they will operate over, eg Newton and Neilston, these will be the first new trains since electrification in the 1960s.

 

One of the rent-a-quote prats stated 'this wouldn't happen in Germany, France or Japan'; How does he know, have they personally assessed the average age of trains in those countries or is this just another of the 'British railways bad, everywhere else's railways better' truths that no-one questions, least of all the BBC ? And as to the BBC, today they were unable to transmit their 0730 Scottish local news bulletin for reasons unexplained - I wonder what the average age of their equipment is ? Funnily enough, there is no mention of their foul-up on their website; They are quick enough to report on the failings of others but when they fall down, silence is golden.

[Fat Controller]

Most European railways seem to work on a life of about 35-40 years for rolling stock, roughly the same as here, so the average would be about the same. The SNCF lines around Calais have only just stopped using those awful corrugated stainless steel push-pull sets, dating from the late 1960s, and propelled by diesel locos of similar vintage; similar sets were in use until even more recently around Paris. The same situation exists in Italy.

[ForestPines]

And as to the BBC, today they were unable to transmit their 0730 Scottish local news bulletin for reasons unexplained - I wonder what the average age of their equipment is ? Funnily enough, there is no mention of their foul-up on their website; They are quick enough to report on the failings of others but when they fall down, silence is golden.

There was a disputed story in the media a few years aho that the BBC anticipate having to end their 198KHz Long Wave service in a few years because they will run out of spare valves for the Droitwich transmitter.

[TomJ]

Depending on which average they used and now they weighted for volume of each class the IoW must really have messed up the maths!

 

And of course the old equals bad is rather subjective. If you replace an ECML 91 with Flying Scotsman and a rake of Pullmans I can't imagine too many would complain!

[Dunsignalling]

Depending on which average they used and now they weighted for volume of each class the IoW must really have messed up the maths!

 

And of course the old equals bad is rather subjective. If you replace an ECML 91 with Flying Scotsman and a rake of Pullmans I can't imagine too many would complain!

Quite a chunk of FS is probably newer than a lot of the bits in a 91 anyway........... 

[Chris M]

Everybody I used to travel with loved the Chiltern silver trains which were Mk3s pulled or pushed by a 67 (now 68). Quiet, smooth and comfortable. They even have power doors now. Regulars that I spoke do had no idea they were travelling in such old stock. So age as such is no problem.

I do feel sorry for the people who inherited the class 150s from London Midland, very noisy unsophisticated units compared to the nice new quiet air conditioned 172s. I'm told the 150 fleet had a higher seating capacity though. Sometimes new is better and sometimes not.

[Nearholmer]

Caradoc,

 

Lazy journalism it might be, but beat up the BBC at your peril; like democracy, and the NHS, it is far from perfect, but the alternatives are a great deal worse ........ those who would happily see the BBC dead and buried aren't exactly famous for their balance, impartiality, or rigorous quality.

 

Kevin

[EddieB]

Wonderful, the mental age of BBC journalists is getting younger than ever before!

[Reorte]

How often has the average age of UK trains not been around that?

[Glorious NSE]

How often has the average age of UK trains not been around that?

 

Was likely to be younger in the 1830s.

[PenrithBeacon]

Having now actually read the article I feel that I can comment!

 

I must say that I can't find much wrong with it. There is an opinion by the usual rentagob which isn't balanced by a different positive view, nor is it challenged in the article but apart from that it seems to be factual.

 

Why all the fuss? Are the railways so perfect that it isn't possible to legitimately criticise?

[caradoc]

Caradoc,

 

Lazy journalism it might be, but beat up the BBC at your peril; like democracy, and the NHS, it is far from perfect, but the alternatives are a great deal worse ........ those who would happily see the BBC dead and buried aren't exactly famous for their balance, impartiality, or rigorous quality.

 

Kevin

 

Kevin, I agree, the BBC is the first source of news I turn to and the one which I trust the most. However I am concerned that they are becoming rather prone to an anti-rail bias; The pre Christmas predictions of mayhem on the railways, and this story, for example. In neither case has there been any real attempt to provide a balanced view.

[caradoc]

Having now actually read the article I feel that I can comment!

 

I must say that I can't find much wrong with it. There is an opinion by the usual rentagob which isn't balanced by a different positive view, nor is it challenged in the article but apart from that it seems to be factual.

 

Why all the fuss? Are the railways so perfect that it isn't possible to legitimately criticise?

 

Nothing wrong with legitimately criticising the railways, however as you yourself say there is no questioning of opinion presented as fact, nor any explanation. The BBC could, for example, have added that although Inter-City 125 trains are among the oldest in the land they still provide daily a safe, 125mph service, and are popular with the travelling public. But they didn't, the implication obviously being that our old trains are crap. If you only tell one side of a story, and regurgitate opinion unchallenged, the story is not factual. I expect better from the BBC.