60009 Union of South Africa & 61994 The Great Marquess

[cal.n]

Floorplan of what now seems to be named ‘The Cameron Visitor Centre’

 

https://planning.fife.gov.uk/online/files/55855CBD0B22630B66507F92A16D6860/pdf/17_03912_FULL-05_-_PROPOSED_FLOOR_PLAN-1976638.pdf

[Rob Hayes]

I think it’s disgusting that these engines are to be Mothballed.

Sure he owns them. He should be congratulated for all the effort of keeping them running.

But I have it on good authority he was quoted as “allegedly” saying “they are my engines and if I can’t see them run no one else will I’m having the boilers flooded with concrete and they will never run again!”

 

If the above comments are true it’s just greed selfishness to the extreme. He may own them financially but they are of historical importance to the nation and both locos are possibly older than him.

 

Aside from fiscal ownership the mass collective ownership in the hearts and minds of millions far outweighs this.

[phil-b259]

I think it’s disgusting that these engines are to be Mothballed.

Sure he owns them. He should be congratulated for all the effort of keeping them running.

But I have it on good authority he was quoted as “allegedly” saying “they are my engines and if I can’t see them run no one else will I’m having the boilers flooded with concrete and they will never run again!”

 

If the above comments are true it’s just greed selfishness to the extreme. He may own them financially but they are of historical importance to the nation and both locos are possibly older than him.

 

Aside from fiscal ownership the mass collective ownership in the hearts and minds of millions far outweighs this.

 

Have you ever considered that he might have said that precisely because he is fed up with railway enthusiasts telling him what to do.

 

No amount of emotional outbursts changes the facts they are his property to do with as he pleases. Personally I wouldn't blame him if he took the things out of the UK just to teach the so called enthusiasts a lesson in good manners!

 

There are a total of four A4 class locos in the country and even if 2 of them become static exhibits then the other 2 are still going to be out there for folk to enjoy. True its a bit of a shame the K4 won't be returning to steam - but then again what about Green Arrow, Bulleid's Q1, the Adams radial at the Bluebell, etc - last time I looked they were all the last of their class surviving and the world hasn't fallen in because they are now on static display has it?

 

There is far too much of a presumption that every steam loco that exists must be kept working to allow people to 'appreciate it' (all at the cost of the oner of course) - when the reality is most folk outside the enthusiast grouping are hard pressed to tell the difference between one loco and another (the NRM usually sticks a 'Flying Scotsman' headboard to Mallard and 90% of visitors go home happy that they have seen 'the flying Scotsman'

[Pete the Elaner]

I think it’s disgusting that these engines are to be Mothballed.

Sure he owns them. He should be congratulated for all the effort of keeping them running.

But I have it on good authority he was quoted as “allegedly” saying “they are my engines and if I can’t see them run no one else will I’m having the boilers flooded with concrete and they will never run again!”

 

If the above comments are true it’s just greed selfishness to the extreme. He may own them financially but they are of historical importance to the nation and both locos are possibly older than him.

 

Aside from fiscal ownership the mass collective ownership in the hearts and minds of millions far outweighs this.

Is it any 'worse' then 46235 City of Birmingham being stuck in museums since the 1960s?

I would love to see that on the main line, but it belongs to Birmingham City Council so they are free to do with it what they please.

[Rob Hayes]

No emotional outbursts here. Just simply saying that something like an A4 No one can ever truly “own” nothing to do with railways enthusiasts being taught a “lesson” (that was an emotional outburst ). For something like an A4 or a K4 they are of national historical importance and you can only really be a “care taker” for them even though you may own them.

 

He is perfectly entitled to enjoy them not running in his quieter years. I’m just saying that if the comments are true that he wants to fill them with concrete to stop others being able to see them run if he can’t is selfish vandalism in the extreme (I stress IF the comments are true)

If they are true it’s the sign of a massive ego problem.

 

The main thing I’m sad about is that neither of them are on the SVR anymore I used to see them regularly here and I’m greatful to him for keeping them going all these years. But if he can’t do that no more they should be passed to the next best candidate to keep them going for the nation.

 

No good seeing locos not working. Even the NRM used to have that as their policy before being taken over by the science museum making locos like Mallard never run again. Stupidity especially the argument that its the most original. The amount of boiler and tender swaps they all had illustrates that.

 

Cheers Rob

Edited September 13, 2018 by Rob Hayes

[phil-b259]

No emotional outbursts here. Just simply saying that something like an A4 No one can ever truly “own” nothing to do with railways enthusiasts being taught a “lesson” (that was an emotional outburst ). For something like an A4 or a K4 they are of national historical importance and you can only really be a “care taker” for them even though you may own them.

 

He is perfectly entitled to enjoy them not running in his quieter years. I’m just saying that if the comments are true that he wants to fill them with concrete to stop others being able to see them run if he can’t is selfish vandalism in the extreme (I stress IF the comments are true)

If they are true it’s the sign of a massive ego problem.

 

Sorry, should have been a bit clearer Rob as I wasn't meaning to accuse you of getting emotional - but a review of some of the things that have been said on other forums will show that Mr Cameron's patience has been sorely tried by some of the mud slung at him by 'enthusiasts' (who kind of forget that without Mr Cameron, No. 9 would have been scrapped in the 1960s). In such circumstances his threat (which I don't believe he would actually carry out) is entirely understandable.

Edited September 12, 2018 by phil-b259

[phil-b259]

No good seeing locos not working. Even the NRM used to have that as their policy before being taken over by the science museum making locos like Mallard never run again. Stupidity especially the argument that ya the most original. The amount of boiler and tender swaps they all had illustrates that.

 

Cheers Rob

 

My view that this 'originality' argument is more of a fig leaf to disguise the fact that the NRM cannot afford to restore and run locos like they used to thanks to budget cuts.

 

Oh and before anyone mentions Flying Scotsman, that was bought by the NRM with donations from the public on the explicit understanding it would be restored to steam. Whether the NRM will still wish to keep her going in 10 or 20 years when further costly overhauls become due is a different thing altogether.

Edited September 12, 2018 by phil-b259

[Wheatley]

something like an A4 No one can ever truly “own”

Yes they can. It's a tool built to do a job. You'd soon get peed off with complete strangers telling you wha you were and weren't allowed to do with your car/telly/washing machine, even if it was a very large and old car/telly/washing machine and one of only four left in the country.

 

If they are true it’s the sign of a massive ego problem.

You've clearly never met Mr Cameron.

[Wheatley]

Even the NRM used to have that as their policy before being taken over by the science museum making locos like Mallard never run again.

Science Museum Group policy is to operate items from their collection where it aids public understanding:

 

"As leaders in science and technology communication and learning, the SMG remains committed to

operating historic objects, recognising that the high levels of interest and the educational value in

“working objects” make a meaningful connection between the museum’s visitors and the collections.

The value of operating a historic object for public understanding of the science and technology it

demonstrates will be taken into account within the decision making process.

 

The SMG’s selection, risk assessment and review processes (based on the tenets of the National

Heritage Act, 1983) are to ensure that working objects are used in a safe, secure and sustainable way,

according to best practice, now and for the future, letting the importance and condition of the object

and the quality of the evidence for an earlier state guide the decision."

 

My bold. The future is forever, not just the next few years. Link here for anyone who cares to actually read it. https://group.sciencemuseum.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/SMG-Policy-Selecting-Operating-Objects-Approved-2014.pdf

 

Something still largely in original condition (like Mallard) is less likely to be operated than something which isn't (Like Flying Scotsman). The National Heritage Act 1983 (cited above) requires the Science Museum Group to preserve its assests, exhibit them and make them available for research, not flog them to death for the short term amusement of enthusiasts.   

Edited September 13, 2018 by Wheatley

[phil-b259]

Science Museum Group policy is to operate items from their collection where it aids public understanding:

 

"As leaders in science and technology communication and learning, the SMG remains committed to

operating historic objects, recognising that the high levels of interest and the educational value in

“working objects” make a meaningful connection between the museum’s visitors and the collections.

The value of operating a historic object for public understanding of the science and technology it

demonstrates will be taken into account within the decision making process.

 

The SMG’s selection, risk assessment and review processes (based on the tenets of the National

Heritage Act, 1983) are to ensure that working objects are used in a safe, secure and sustainable way,

according to best practice, now and for the future, letting the importance and condition of the object

and the quality of the evidence for an earlier state guide the decision."

 

My bold. The future is forever, not just the next few years. Link here for anyone who cares to actually read it. https://group.sciencemuseum.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/SMG-Policy-Selecting-Operating-Objects-Approved-2014.pdf

 

Something still largely in original condition (like Mallard) is less likely to be operated than something which isn't (Like Flying Scotsman). The National Heritage Act 1983 (cited above) requires the Science Museum Group to preserve its assests, exhibit them and make them available for research, not flog them to death for the short term amusement of enthusiasts.   

 

Define original please

 

As has been pointed out steam locomotives regularly saw their components swapped about during overhaul, even boilers, connecting rods can pass though several locos during their lifetime. Some locos were even given new frames to fix wear and tear so even this key component may not be 'original' (the loco number was associated a specific chassis block throughout its life so to speak).

 

I therefore very much doubt that the majority of parts that go to make up Mallard are 'original' to that engine - the best that can be said is that they are the ones attached to it when withdrawn from BR service.

 

Consequently this 'originality' argument is a smokescreen for other reasons and should only be used when describing something that has genuinely been unaltered - like a painting, a sculpture, a manuscript.

Edited September 13, 2018 by phil-b259

[Steamport Southport]

I certainly wouldn't hold up the NRM/Science Museum as examples of the best custodians of historical artefacts....

 

 

 

 

Jason

[Wheatley]

the best that can be said is that they are the ones attached to it when withdrawn from BR service.

 

Which is at least a start. The point I was trying to make is that the Rob's argument that SMG was opposed to operation on principle is incorrect, there's an awful lot of "it depends" involved in the decision making process of which originality is only part. I suspet cash (lack of) might be a greater factor.

[brack]

I certainly wouldn't hold up the NRM/Science Museum as examples of the best custodians of historical artefacts....

Jason

Perhaps in 10 years time, out of the blue with no warning, it'll be announced that the NRM has too many 20s/30s pacifics so mallard has been given to the teifi valley railway, who are planning to restore it to working order (after having left it outside for a few years)...

[durham light infantry]

I certainly wouldn't hold up the NRM/Science Museum as examples of the best custodians of historical artefacts....

 

 

 

 

Jason

In an ideal world they would be....

 

But they have to show due diligence, best practice, and follow the remit imposed upon them by their political masters. Don't chastise those whose present and immediate futures are not theirs to choose.

 

Mike

[slilley]

No emotional outbursts here. Just simply saying that something like an A4 No one can ever truly “own” nothing to do with railways enthusiasts being taught a “lesson” (that was an emotional outburst ). For something like an A4 or a K4 they are of national historical importance and you can only really be a “care taker” for them even though you may own them.

 

He is perfectly entitled to enjoy them not running in his quieter years. I’m just saying that if the comments are true that he wants to fill them with concrete to stop others being able to see them run if he can’t is selfish vandalism in the extreme (I stress IF the comments are true)

If they are true it’s the sign of a massive ego problem.

 

The main thing I’m sad about is that neither of them are on the SVR anymore I used to see them regularly here and I’m greatful to him for keeping them going all these years. But if he can’t do that no more they should be passed to the next best candidate to keep them going for the nation.

 

No good seeing locos not working. Even the NRM used to have that as their policy before being taken over by the science museum making locos like Mallard never run again. Stupidity especially the argument that its the most original. The amount of boiler and tender swaps they all had illustrates that.

 

Cheers Rob

 

Rob

 

FYI, the NRM was never taken over by the Science Museum, it has always been a part of it.

 

Regards

 

Simon

[Mallard60022]

I certainly wouldn't hold up the NRM/Science Museum as examples of the best custodians of historical artefacts....

 

 

 

 

Jason

However, we would be up sh## creek if the NRM did not exist.

P

[brack]

However, we would be up sh## creek if the NRM did not exist.

P

Absolutely, just imagine how many locos would be preserved if there was no National Collection and no Barry Scrapyard.

[pete_mcfarlane]

I certainly wouldn't hold up the NRM/Science Museum as examples of the best custodians of historical artefacts....

 

 

 

 

Jason

They might not be perfect, but at least they don't scrap steam locos like the Belgians did about 15 years back.

[TheSignalEngineer]

Rob

 

FYI, the NRM was never taken over by the Science Museum, it has always been a part of it.

 

Regards

 

Simon

Beeching didn't think it appropriate that BR should be running museums. The NRM was set up as a result of the 1968 Transport Act with (IIRC) BR donating the premises and a lot of the exhibits with the Science Museum being responsible for organising and running it.

[009 micro modeller]

Perhaps in 10 years time, out of the blue with no warning, it'll be announced that the NRM has too many 20s/30s pacifics so mallard has been given to the teifi valley railway, who are planning to restore it to working order (after having left it outside for a few years)...

Teifi? Hmmm... Not sure Mallard could be regauged to 2ft very easily. And no, I won't be ineptly attempting to regauge a Hornby A4 to 009 to see if it would be possible...

[Mallard60022]

Anyone got any pics of 09 on the ECML yesterday (Saturday 15th Sept)? It looked bl##dy magnificent through 36E at about 70mph, whistle open etc.

If so I'd love to see them here if possible as I am seriously trying not to use Face Book . Thanks

[Nimbus]

Anyone got any pics of 09 on the ECML yesterday (Saturday 15th Sept)? It looked bl##dy magnificent through 36E at about 70mph, whistle open etc.

If so I'd love to see them here if possible as I am seriously trying not to use Face Book . Thanks

 

Irritated that I didn't check my diary, so missed what may have been its last run on home turf in reasonable weather and light.

 

I heard the other '09' coast undemonstrably past on the return trip. Alycidon is departing Wembley at 13:00 for home via the ECML today: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/U55473/2018/09/16/advanced

 

The Nim.

[GordonC]

Have you tried looking on Flickr?

[JamieR4489]

I was on the tour so I didn't get to see the loco on the move but there was a chance to look at number 9 at York while it was being filled up with water.

 

We had a great run with Alycidon on the way back with a top speed of 102mph (I think) down Stoke bank.

 

Jamie

[Mallard60022]

Thank you.

P