60009 Union of South Africa & 61994 The Great Marquess

[JamieR4489]

Number ten is 4489 (60010) Dominion Of Canada.

I think Waddon is an LBSC terrier

[Guest Lyonesse]

Number ten is 4489 (60010) Dominion Of Canada.

I think Waddon is an LBSC terrier

That makes sense.  I googled Waddon, but the closest I could come up with was Whaddon Hall (6970).  Wikipedia says that Waddon is at the Canadian NRM.

[Bomag]

No 10 aka A4 60010

Wadden lbscr a1x

 

Posted from Brussels and took an hour to turn up!

Edited October 11, 2018 by Bomag

[Steamport Southport]

60010 Dominion Of Canada (sister engine to 60009 which we are discussing) and LBSC 54 Waddon were exported to Canada in the 1960s and are apparently no longer wanted by the Canadian Railway Museum as they aren't relevant to Canada.

 

Both have spent time neglected outside in sub zero temperatures at certain times. Now they are being put in a shed which is not weatherproof and not open to the public. Apparently an enthusiast even paid for the repaint of Waddon and looked after it as it was stored outside for years in terrible Canadian winters.

 

The details are in the latest issue of Steam Railway.

 

 

Nothing might come of it. But if they don't want them, then hopefully someone will repatriate them and 60010 would be an excellent replacement for 60009 on the mainline.

 

 

Jason

[JamieR4489]

I thought 4489 was in the new exhibition hall next to the Royal Hudson.

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=lner+4489&rlz=1C1FERN_enGB637GB638&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwit9YTK_P7dAhXMIsAKHTb6A8YQ_AUIDigB&biw=1280&bih=882#imgrc=EdgLFbJZg6cqMM:

[phil-b259]

60010 Dominion Of Canada (sister engine to 60009 which we are discussing) and LBSC 54 Waddon were exported to Canada in the 1960s and are apparently no longer wanted by the Canadian Railway Museum as they aren't relevant to Canada.

 

Both have spent time neglected outside in sub zero temperatures at certain times. Now they are being put in a shed which is not weatherproof and not open to the public. Apparently an enthusiast even paid for the repaint of Waddon and looked after it as it was stored outside for years in terrible Canadian winters.

 

The details are in the latest issue of Steam Railway.

 

 

Nothing might come of it. But if they don't want them, then hopefully someone will repatriate them and 60010 would be an excellent replacement for 60009 on the mainline.

 

 

Jason

 

So all that work the NRM did on it for the 'Great gathering' event was an imagination was it?

 

While its true that in previous decades 60010 may have been neglected and exposed to harsh Canadian winters, it now rests safely inside the new fully enclosed & heated exhibition hall alongside some of Canadia's finest locos.

 

The situation with Waddon might well be different though - but to be honest given it has zero connection with Canada I'm not surprised. 60010 by contrast has carried the name 'Dominion of Canada' since the mid 1930s and was so named specifically in honour of the country.

 

I would also caution that some folk do refer to Steam Railway as 'Steam Beano' due to the number of articles that subsequently turn out to not be as accurate as they could be.....

Edited October 11, 2018 by phil-b259

[adb968008]

That makes sense. I googled Waddon, but the closest I could come up with was Whaddon Hall (6970). Wikipedia says that Waddon is at the Canadian NRM.

Heres a bit more...

 

Waddon is a place just outside Croydon, formerly recognised as the station to alight for Croydon Airport, with a bay, and a reasonable sized goods yard.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waddon_railway_station

 

Today its home to an insane 5 way road junction, and a pub called “The Waddon”, otherwise Waddon only exists to serve Purley Way, a mega Chinese Supermarket, Costco and any number of mega-retailers. As it has limited parking and even more limited drop off abilities, being in the centre of the 1 way gyratory of this mega junction its ill placed today.

 

The Terriers name is from Waddon station, when Terriers were named after the LBSCR stations they served, in this case the London Bridge to Sutton via West Croydon line. The terriers only lasted briefly on this line as the popularity od “country side living” rapidly turned the lines into mass overcrowded routes. Within 20 years the branch had overhead electrification, remains of which are visible at West Croydon and even Clapham junction if one knows where to look.

 

Waddon frequently saw the royal train, and had pullman services, related to dignitaries with the airport, but prior due to the lines route to Epsom downs and the races. Other stations on the branch include the long lonst Bandon Halt (120 years after closure only concrete stumps remain), Wallington, Carshalton Beeches and Sutton. Today the lines still has London Bridge services that still take the same duration to travel to London Bridge as the early 1900’s.

The last BR steam on the branch was mid1960’s with 30053, a 78xxx and 34066. Since 1968 steam has been exceptionally sparse, despite loads of spare paths and a direct route to Horsham and the south avoiding Redhill, it has seen but 45407 c2005 and in 2016 saw 34046 on the football special from West Croydon to Southampton.

 

the only other preserved Terrier associated to this line is 32650 Sutton (formerly Whitechapel), preserved by Sutton council, with a nod towards a plan of a preserved steam operation between Norwood Junction (via Waddon) and Epsom Downs in the early 1960’s that never happened. Waddon was also one of the last stations to see a regular 2bil EMU service, when NSE rebuilt Epsom Downs, a fire occured damaging the signalling, and resulted issues saw the Epsom downs - Sutton line run as a “1 engine in steam” isolated branch for a few months using the preserved 2bil emu, which was tripped down this line to Selhurst.

 

Middleton press has a very good book on this route, if you know where to look, there are still several Southern Region cast iron signs in situe along this line.

Edited October 12, 2018 by adb968008

[PhilMortimer]

I would be surprised at this. I check in on 60010 regularly and since it came back to Canada, it has been located in the Great Hall, next to the Royal Hudson. It is the first thing you see as you come through the doors! Although i personally prefer the A4's in Brunswick Green Livery with the double chimney, I have to say it looks stunning in the Garter Blue.

 

Prior to going to the UK, it lived in one of the sheds at the back of the site, along with Waddon and the SNCF loco from France / Belgium. At least as long as I've known it, it has always been undercover, along with other prominent Canadian loco's such as the Selkirk, etc. A little out the way and you needed to go look for it, but contrary to what is often reported, definitely not neglected. As I recall, all the loco's in the outer sheds were regularly greased and moved to keep them mobile. The last time I saw it prior to it shipping ovver to the UK, it looked OK. Slightly dusty and careworn, but actually looking quite authentic as if in regular use and not cleaned daily (although I'm sure this was not intended. Now it is in the great hall, it looks a little sanitized!

 

Most of the steam stock at the Canadian Railroad Museum is under cover. The site isn't the tidiest in certain locations and some freight and passenger vehicles are in a bad state, along with a few diesels. It is ironic that most of the more dilapidated stock is Canadian!. But there is an ongoing program to bring the museum up to scratch, which included building the Great Hall. As for Canadian winters, many displayed North American loco's are subject to such conditions. Canadians and Americans who live in the northern states are used to the cold weather and know how to winterize things If done properly, the cold will not be an issue. My Land rover come with me from the UK and quite happily runs at 20 below

.

So I would be very surprised if these rumors of CRM looking to dispose of the A4 and Waddon are true and consider that this may be more of rumor mongering or floating a suggestion around to get it back. A few years ago, there were suggestions that #8 and # 10 be kept in the UK after their excursions to the UK. However, both owning organizations wanted their loco's back. When it came back to Canada, there was quite a bit of Hooplah about it, including unveiling it in its new (old?) livery. In their quiet way, CRM is quite proud of it and I would be surprised that they would want to let it go. One also has to remember that it if wasn't for the CRM,it would have been cut up many years ago, a fate that it narrowly escaped (at Darlington if I recall correctly?.

[Bon Accord]

About 20 odd years ago when Tony Marchington was looking for an A4 (and prior to buying 4472) he approached the owners of both North American A4s and whilst the Americans turned him down flat I think the Canadians offered the locomotive for £300,000 which was a bit OTT for the time.

I recall reading this in a published interview with Marchington just after he bought the A3, quite likely in Steam Railway itself.

[adb968008]

I know a couple of BR mk1 coaches, in BR maroon (as exported from the UK) still reside not a million miles from where DOC resides, i always thought they would be good to be parked with it on display.

[Steamport Southport]

So all that work the NRM did on it for the 'Great gathering' event was an imagination was it?

 

While its true that in previous decades 60010 may have been neglected and exposed to harsh Canadian winters, it now rests safely inside the new fully enclosed & heated exhibition hall alongside some of Canadia's finest locos.

 

The situation with Waddon might well be different though - but to be honest given it has zero connection with Canada I'm not surprised. 60010 by contrast has carried the name 'Dominion of Canada' since the mid 1930s and was so named specifically in honour of the country.

 

I would also caution that some folk do refer to Steam Railway as 'Steam Beano' due to the number of articles that subsequently turn out to not be as accurate as they could be.....

 

 

I know that as I saw it three times. Arriving, NRM and at Barrow Hill.The work was paid for by the British taxpayer I must emphasise.

 

But how does that dispute the fact that it was neglected for decades. Did you see the state of it when it arrived? Compare it to Dwight next to it which is spotless.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_s4WC-k6tI

 

 

Canada has form when it comes to disposing of locomotives. Dunrobin, all those Hunslets now at Statfold, etc.

 

I hope we can add these two to the list.

 

 

But I did say in post #179 

 

Nothing might come of it.

 

 

 

 

Jason

[JamieR4489]

Compare it to Dwight next to it which is spotless

Actually Dwight was in a worse physical state because the Americans had grit blasted the loco, then filled up the hundreds of holes made and finally painted the loco a weird shade of green. The motion had all been painted as well (I think). DOC was still carrying its 1967 paint job until 2012 which stood the test of time pretty well. However, Dwight is in better condition mechanically.

[Sir Hadyn]

It is indeed true to say that No. 8 was in worse condition than No. 10. No. 10 had always been kept under cover, but was still in 47 year old paint. No. 8 had been displayed outside for 20 years but had been painted in shiny gloss paint, so everyone thought it was in better nick. Not so.

 

We cannot accuse CRM of not looking after No.10 before 2012, they did what they could with the resources they had. There was no real rust on that engine.

 

Steve Cheasley told me that in 1967, they wanted to LNER blue it with valances etc, asked BR what it would cost and got a prohibitive quote. They told BR what they had (about £1500 at that time) and BR said that would give them ONE coat of BR Green - which is what it got - and that lasted until 2012, albeit somewhat worn as the paint aged.

Edited October 12, 2018 by Sir Hadyn

[bobthesod4479]

Well, if it helps I did a coast to coast trip last year across the US visiting museums and getting a tour around the UP workshops!! ( a talk is under construction and just needs a digital projector being made available, only  travelling costs! involved) This followed up ones in 1991 and 2001 Sep,( now that was a barrel of laughs)

so this is kosher info

 

1 Green Bay No 9 in 1991 pained B awful with ally painted motion and located in a open ended shed  Now fully enclosed  with  Eisenhowers carriage behind it ,next to a Big Boy and a GG-1

 

2  Delton   No 10  in 2001 in a closed shed, although you could walk through the tender, Now in the main museum with a pit to walk under AND the middle Con Rod is missing

 

Seriously if  any clubs want a talk, i can give a couple depending if you are interested in planes and cars as well!

[PhilMortimer]

The middle con rod on #10 DOC is in the tender coal space. It was removed as I recall by BR before shipping to Canada in 1967, to avoid problems with potential seizing during transportation by rail during the initial trip to Canada. After unloading at Montreal docks, #10 was towed (in reverse as i recall) to the museum along operational railroad tracks. Film of the move is at the CRM. When it traveled back to the UK, and subsequently returned in 2014, it was loaded onto a flat car (as was #8) and shipped to Halifax NS for loading onto the boat. There are very few North American steamers with inside cylinders and consequent lack of experience with them, so it was decided to remove the con rod for safety's sake. At the time, the loco was not displayed over a pit, so it wasn't that noticable. Now that you can walk underneath it, I would like to think that one day it will be refitted, but haven't heard anything to that effect.

[009 micro modeller]

I know that as I saw it three times. Arriving, NRM and at Barrow Hill.The work was paid for by the British taxpayer I must emphasise.

 

But how does that dispute the fact that it was neglected for decades. Did you see the state of it when it arrived? Compare it to Dwight next to it which is spotless.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_s4WC-k6tI

 

 

Canada has form when it comes to disposing of locomotives. Dunrobin, all those Hunslets now at Statfold, etc.

 

I hope we can add these two to the list.

 

 

But I did say in post #179

 

 

 

 

Jason

Which reminds me, isn’t there still a mark 1 in service at the museum where Dunrobin used to be?

[31A]

The two from "across the Pond" outside the shed at Shildon, six years ago to the day as it happens:

 

[eldomtom2]

About 20 odd years ago when Tony Marchington was looking for an A4 (and prior to buying 4472) he approached the owners of both North American A4s and whilst the Americans turned him down flat I think the Canadians offered the locomotive for £300,000 which was a bit OTT for the time.

I recall reading this in a published interview with Marchington just after he bought the A3, quite likely in Steam Railway itself.

I expect it being OTT was the point - while they didn't really want to give up 60010, if Marchington was going to give them a very large sum of money to do so, they weren't exactly going to say no.

Edited October 14, 2018 by eldomtom2

[bobthesod4479]

Here they are last year

[Bon Accord]

I expect it being OTT was the point - while they didn't really want to give up 60010, if Marchington was going to give them a very large sum of money to do so, they weren't exactly going to say no.

 

It wasn't too far off the scales though, merely being at the expensive end of a rather limited market. 60019 was up for sale at the time for not much less.

The point being that the Canadians were seemingly quite happy to get rid of their A4 at the time.

[adb968008]

So heres the rub,

 

If DOC came on the market, and UoSA... thats two A4’s.

How many people are going to pay the asking price of an A4, and have pockets to pay for it ?, let alone 2 of them.

 

I cant think of many people who would take on UoSA credibly with the pockets to do it, let alone both of them.

If both came to market this could lead to both achieving low values.

A4s just became a buyers market.

 

I suspect preserving the wealth was behind the plan of the Fife mausoleum plan, i have my doubts this will ever attract visitors in the elaborate 50m x 200m building, which placed the support coach inbetween the two locos, with an office, cafe and presentation room.

 

Donating A4s i’m sure there are plenty of credible, notable, reputable and willing institutions out there (commercial and charitable) that will take them, if the owners will donate or sell cheap...but some how i think not, but could end up with no other choice.

 

I’m all for a secure home for the A4’s and have no issue with the owner retiring his locos with him, but its more benefit to his legacy, the locos security and the historical value at a museum of Scottish history or technology in a more central location, be it a railway, science, historical theme or whatever.

 

History shows keeping an engine in your garden on its own doesnt work in the long term, Flying Scotsman even tried that and failed with its “village” in Waverley station.

 

You have to remeber, outside our hobby, its nothing more than an iron statue that drunk kids put traffic cones on. Theres no point making shrines out of locos and attaching presumed financial or emotional value that the rest of the world doesnt understand. It needs to be simple for these locos to survive, the best examples, as seen include the 14xx in Tiverton, 46235 and even the rotating the examples displayed at Swindon, a plinth a plaque in a secure dry location in context to other activities around it.

 

whilst that might be an almighty come down fate for what we consider a prestgious loco, but if 60009 and 60010 were to suck up the mass resources of Grosmont, Carnforth, Riley or Tyseley.. then they assume place of another loco that wont get those resources..a Bulleid or a Jubilee perhaps ?

 

Its not the little engines that are of concern, i’m sure Waddon will find a working home anywhere, its cheaper, and much more useful. These big pacifics only work out on the mainline, its a big boys game, and these are the biggest toys.. someones going to lose a lot of percieved value that doesnt amortise itself somewhere.

 

Sadly though i’m realist and know charles darwin wins in preservation too, the A4’s will find homes, but at the expense of some 2-8-0 or Bulleid pacific that may end its days rusting on a roundabout, tagged with grafiti until a journalist notices the dangers and forces a council to scrap it instead.

 

For that reason alone i hope the A4 in Canada stays in Canada, its safe and allows resources here to focus on others.

Edited October 17, 2018 by adb968008

[pete_mcfarlane]

I’m all for a secure home for the A4’s and have no issue with the owner retiring his locos with him, but its more benefit to his legacy, the locos security and the historical value at a museum of Scottish history or technology in a more central location, be it a railway, science, historical theme or whatever.

Be careful what you wish for. I'm sure the Riverside museum in Glasgow would love the chance to display them upside down and 100' feet up in the air. 

[PJ10]

Evening,

 

Looks like the plans for the visitors centre have been rejected.

 

https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/local/fife/743902/future-of-legendary-locomotives-in-balance-after-fife-council-rejects-plans-for-major-railway-visitor-centre-and-open-farm/

 

PJ10

[adb968008]

Be careful what you wish for. I'm sure the Riverside museum in Glasgow would love the chance to display them upside down and 100' feet up in the air.

DSC_0021_2.JPG

DSC_0003_3.JPG

Whats wrong with that ?

That musuem looks very good.

This was a museum in Poland..until the owner ran out of money and slowly sold it for scrap, including national collection locos and some unique last survivors.

https://krzeszowiceone.pl/archive/2006/12/16/skansen-w-krzeszowicach.html

 

The UK is blessed for steam, i am lucky to have seen steam in nearly 50 countries. Even countries like the USA are way behind us. That is however down to the UK steam generation of the 1950’s. Most of whom are close to retirement. Those council officials, bank managers, railway employees who were secret steam enthusiasts, were understanding or bent rules to support the hobby are retired. The replacements are often from cultural backgrounds thousands of miles away, literally and physically, who have no interest nor care at all in rusting hunks of iron, much as is the case around the rest of the world.

 

We might not like 60009 and 61994 being retired, but at least the owner is trying to guarentee their safety as museum pieces rather than see them spend a decade rusting at the end of a headshunt till funds are found.

 

The hobby will need to save itself as it shrinks, otherwise the choice will be taken from it, just as it was for this guy in krzeszowice who saved them for a decade before weighing them in, in some cases controversially.

Just this month we have seen two tributes to major influencers of steam passing, Alan Peglers farewell last week, Dennis Howells is this weekend, whilst on monday this week Nigel Dobbing passed away, arguably Britains strongest overseas commercial voice for world steam and owner of the UKs largest Steam railtour charter company... with each voice lost, the influence of the hobby shrinks... will we see 200+ RTC tours in 2019 with its bias towards the few remaining preserved steam operators, or will his passing see more commercial steam from WCR making it even harder for those preserved groups to find work ?

 

Theres more to this advert than just a joke..

https://youtu.be/Q0jYR6qOKdY

 

Sadly obituaries dont replace the passion and efforts of those they are written about and its under appreciated the gaps these people leave and the work theyve done, Unlike other sexy occupations, you dont find sprawling ants waiting to fill their boots, just lots of issues for a family to resolve, and an empty desk.

Edited October 17, 2018 by adb968008

[Dava]

Evening,

 

Looks like the plans for the visitors centre have been rejected.

 

https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/local/fife/743902/future-of-legendary-locomotives-in-balance-after-fife-council-rejects-plans-for-major-railway-visitor-centre-and-open-farm/

 

PJ10

Fife Regional Council has let through some real planning stinkers in recent years including a huge golf resort/hotel on the coast near St Andrew's, coastal caravan parks, huge whisky warehouses and a vast Amazon warehouse in Dunfermline etc. So John Cameron using a small amount of his own grazing land to build a farm Visitor Centre is trivial. He may appeal it and win. Alternatively he could endow a new building for the locos at the Scottish Railway Museum at Bo'Ness across the Forth. I like that option.

 

Dava