60009 Union of South Africa & 61994 The Great Marquess

[Zomboid]

As the place where the locomotive was pretty much invented (if not railways, they go back much further than the industrial revolution), the UK has a vast amount of UK rail heritage that the NRM doesn't cover, which Union wouldn't really help with.

 

So far as I know, Northern Ireland is a rather more gaping hole than an A4 in 2018 main line condition given that they've already got Mallard - and FS already covers the early 21st century steam base.

 

Unless NIR is explicitly excluded from the NRMs remit of course (and that would be understandable given the politics).

[Mallard60022]

I think that an A4 plodding along at a few mph forwards and backwards for half a mile on the demonstration line would be one of the sadder sights in preservation.

Better than disappearing into the wilds of wilderness Scotland?

Phil

[Bomag]

Better than disappearing into the wilds of wilderness Scotland?

Phil

 

Is this supposed to be satire? Fife may be out of the way for most in the UK but it's not exactly wilderness (except for possibly Glenrothes (insert satire tag)).

 

As for the rack locos - the UK had a large number of rack locos, you just never saw them.

[2mm Andy]

Snowdon is the only rack system in the UK (using Swiss locomotives) but the Nilgiri Mountain Railway was a British rack railway.

 

The NRM is rather parochial.  It has the Shinkansen (important, but no British connection), and the Vulcan-built Chinese 4-8-4, but nothing about the British built and run railways overseas.  They don't just ignore the large colonial systems --- India, Egypt/Sudan, East Africa (meter) and South Africa (cape gauge) --- but also the Argentine (5ft 6in) and Brazilian (5ft 3in, with express Beyer-Garratts) railways.

 

Don't forget that the Museum of Science and Industry at Manchester has a Pakistan Railways loco (built by the Vulcan Foundry at Newton-le-Willows) and a South African Beyer-Garratt (built by Beyer Peacock at Gorton) on display. The museum is part of the Science Museum Group along with the NRM, and as both locos were built at Manchester, I would venture that they are more relevant on display there than York.

 

Andy

[Mallard60022]

Is this supposed to be satire? Fife may be out of the way for most in the UK but it's not exactly wilderness (except for possibly Glenrothes (insert satire tag)).

 

As for the rack locos - the UK had a large number of rack locos, you just never saw them.

OK I give in.  I know f all about the history of rack and it is obvious that posters here are not interested in having No 9 anywhere south of the Satirical border. Good luck

Phil 

[Bomag]

OK I give in.  I know f all about the history of rack and it is obvious that posters here are not interested in having No 9 anywhere south of the Satirical border. Good luck

Phil 

 

I would prefer No 9 to keep working; however, the K4 is a much greater loss. If No 9 stuck in a shed in Fife is the price to pay for smoothing egos for Cameron to pass on the K4 to somebody who will maintain it in running order then that is worth paying.

[EddieB]

The NRM is rather parochial.  It has the Shinkansen (important, but no British connection), and the Vulcan-built Chinese 4-8-4, but nothing about the British built and run railways overseas.  They don't just ignore the large colonial systems --- India, Egypt/Sudan, East Africa (meter) and South Africa (cape gauge) --- but also the Argentine (5ft 6in) and Brazilian (5ft 3in, with express Beyer-Garratts) railways.

If so, they probably join the masses that regard anything beyond our shores as being of lesser value.  If it is the job of a museum to inform and educate, then recognising the part played by British engineers - not only in designing and building locomotives for export, but also in surveying and laying tracks through virgin territory - should be one of the priorities of the NRM.

 

How many realise, for instance, that British companies supplied in excess of seven thousand steam locomotives just to the countries of mainland Europe?  In many instances, the first locomotives in those countries were built in Britain.  Spain, Germany, Italy, Belgium and Holland have all constructed full-size replicas of early British locomotives   Now that would make a fine exhibition were they all to be brought over here for a season.  Even better if they were joined with "real" early British-built locomotives that survive in preservation.

 

Sorry, forgive me.  I got carried away.  What the public actually want is FS, Tornado, another A4 and any number of Bulleid Pacifics.

[brack]

Whilst I agree that Northern Ireland is not represented in the national collection/NRM the locos the RPSI has and those at cultra offer a good selection of those from both sides or the border and are probably better off around Belfast Lough than over here in York. Similarly the Scottish locos are in Glasgow rather than being at York.

[m0rris]

Whilst I agree that Northern Ireland is not represented in the national collection/NRM the locos the RPSI has and those at cultra offer a good selection of those from both sides or the border and are probably better off around Belfast Lough than over here in York. Similarly the Scottish locos are in Glasgow rather than being at York.

 

Agreed, in the Whitehead and Cultra collections there are some fantastic collections close to where they ran, it'd be a shame to move them to York for completeness' sake.

[Zomboid]

The RPSI clearly does an excellent job, and if the NRM actually had any Irish artifacts then a museum in NI would be the appropriate place to keep them rather than York.

 

Anyway, this thread isn't about bashing the NRM... (It's about thinking we have some right to tell a private individual what he should do with his property...).

[Guest Lyonesse]

If so, they probably join the masses that regard anything beyond our shores as being of lesser value.  If it is the job of a museum to inform and educate, then recognising the part played by British engineers - not only in designing and building locomotives for export, but also in surveying and laying tracks through virgin territory - should be one of the priorities of the NRM.

 

How many realise, for instance, that British companies supplied in excess of seven thousand steam locomotives just to the countries of mainland Europe?  In many instances, the first locomotives in those countries were built in Britain.  Spain, Germany, Italy, Belgium and Holland have all constructed full-size replicas of early British locomotives   Now that would make a fine exhibition were they all to be brought over here for a season.  Even better if they were joined with "real" early British-built locomotives that survive in preservation.

 

Sorry, forgive me.  I got carried away.  What the public actually want is FS, Tornado, another A4 and any number of Bulleid Pacifics.

 

Wouldn't it be great if the NRM could get a loan of one of the metre gauge class 59 Garratts from the other NRM (Nairobi Railway Museum).  They have two, after all.  But then at 103 ft long and 157 tons it might be a bit of a handful.  Perhaps the Nairobi RM could loan one of their two class 24 Vulcan 4-8-0s?

[dunwurken]

Whilst I agree that Northern Ireland is not represented in the national collection/NRM the locos the RPSI has and those at cultra offer a good selection of those from both sides or the border and are probably better off around Belfast Lough than over here in York. Similarly the Scottish locos are in Glasgow rather than being at York.

Not forgetting CR419, NBR673 etc at the SRPS museum at Bo'ness. 61994 is also currently in residence at Bo'ness.

Dunwurken

[Marshall5]

The NRM is just one branch of the Science Museum.  MOSI in Manchester has a Beyer Peacock 4-4-0 built for India/Pakistan and a 3'6''g. ex SAR GEA type Garratt representing locos built in Britain for export.  There is a North British built SAR 15F in the Glasgow Transport Museum and one, if not two, GMAM Garratts preserved elsewhere.  David Shepherd imported an ex Rhodesia Railway 4-8-0 which was displayed in the NRM for some time.  I think locos built for export are pretty well represented but I still don't see the relevance of the Japanese bullet train.

Ray.

[009 micro modeller]

The NRM is just one branch of the Science Museum. MOSI in Manchester has a Beyer Peacock 4-4-0 built for India/Pakistan and a 3'6''g. ex SAR GEA type Garratt representing locos built in Britain for export. There is a North British built SAR 15F in the Glasgow Transport Museum and one, if not two, GMAM Garratts preserved elsewhere. David Shepherd imported an ex Rhodesia Railway 4-8-0 which was displayed in the NRM for some time. I think locos built for export are pretty well represented but I still don't see the relevance of the Japanese bullet train.

Ray.

If I remember rightly their justification was to do with the global relevance to the development of high speed rail, the technology begun in Japan but now used in Europe as well (although so far only to a limited extent in Britain). If they could get an early Japanese steam loco built in Britain (or a model if none exists) then they could tell quite an interesting story of technology initially introduced from Britain but then developed in a completely different way in Japan.

[eldomtom2]

If they could get an early Japanese steam loco built in Britain (or a model if none exists) then they could tell quite an interesting story of technology initially introduced from Britain but then developed in a completely different way in Japan.

There are several British-built steam locos preserved in Japan (including the very first to operate there), however I don't believe there are more than ten or so and the NRM already has the KF as an example of British-built locos for export.

[adb968008]

I see your point, however, THE A4 doesn't puff and move under it's own steam (literally) and make nice noises. No 9 does not need a Main Line Cert to play around the RM, just a Boiler Cert AFAIK. It would make a very good example of a workaday Pacific that sometimes ran along the ECML outside the RM (not often, but sometimes).

Phil

They have an A3 to do that with, though it hasn’t spent much time in one piece in York since they acquired it. Edited October 6, 2018 by adb968008

[adb968008]

OK I give in. I know f all about the history of rack and it is obvious that posters here are not interested in having No 9 anywhere south of the Satirical border. Good luck

Phil

 

I’d argue 60009 is Home in Scotland, it owes its survival to Scotland, it ended its days there, was preserved there by the very man who managed Scotland’s railways for BR, whom is Scottish through and thru.

If it wasn’t for it’s sole owner since 1966 spending his own money to save, give home to, and restore for your pleasure we wouldn’t even be having this conversation now.

 

It’s a shame to see it retired, but it’s worth over a £1mn, will cost over a £1mn to run and I doubt there’s many with pockets to cover that, it could go to WCRC, Saphos etc, but it could then be lost for many years, at detriment to other potential candidate locos. But it’s symbolism to its owner will be lost, as would it be Scotland’s loss.

 

It’s not really suited to preserved line running in the long term, and let’s face it, going backwards at 25mph it’s not pretty.

 

I’d rather it be somewhere prominent front and centre to Scotland’s history at a place many more people would see it, and not necessarily railway centred, than is planned, but then I don’t own it and it’s not my money.

 

I know many balk at 46235 in Think tank, as they did with 4073 in Kensington and 7819 in the outlet mall in Swindon, but they are appreciated by more than any preserved line and are safely and presentably displayed for the long term.

Edited October 6, 2018 by adb968008

[Mallard60022]

I’d argue 60009 is Home in Scotland, it owes its survival to Scotland, it ended its days there, was preserved there by the very man who managed Scotland’s railways for BR, whom is Scottish through and thru.

If it wasn’t for it’s sole owner since 1966 spending his own money to save, give home to, and restore for your pleasure we wouldn’t even be having this conversation now.

 

It’s a shame to see it retired, but it’s worth over a £1mn, will cost over a £1mn to run and I doubt there’s many with pockets to cover that, it could go to WCRC, Saphos etc, but it could then be lost for many years, at detriment to other potential candidate locos. But it’s symbolism to its owner will be lost, as would it be Scotland’s loss.

 

It’s not really suited to preserved line running in the long term, and let’s face it, going backwards at 25mph it’s not pretty.

 

I’d rather it be somewhere prominent front and centre to Scotland’s history at a place many more people would see it, and not necessarily railway centred, than is planned, but then I don’t own it and it’s not my money.

 

I know many balk at 46235 in Think tank, as they did with 4073 in Kensington and 7819 in the outlet mall in Swindon, but they are appreciated by more than any preserved line and are safely and presentably displayed for the long term.

Top point. Scottish 'Science Museum' or similar then?

[Graham R]

Wouldn't it be great if the NRM could get a loan of one of the metre gauge class 59 Garratts from the other NRM (Nairobi Railway Museum).  They have two, after all.  But then at 103 ft long and 157 tons it might be a bit of a handful.  Perhaps the Nairobi RM could loan one of their two class 24 Vulcan 4-8-0s?

 

If I recall correctly, the N(ational)RM was offered 5930 "Mount Shengena" when it was withdrawn from tourist excursion use in the 1990s; 5918 "Mount Gelai" was to be retained by the N(airobi)RM. The problem was the cost of shipping it from Mombasa (in fact the weight is 185 tons empty, 254 in working order): no-one would put up the money. 5930's boiler was actually in better condition, but unfortunately someone moved it dead without opening the cylinder cocks around 2000 and blew the end off a cylinder. The Nairobi museum only displays 5930 and 2401; the other two, 5918 and 2409, are stored elsewhere for safety, but are currently both unserviceable due to careless use and theft of nonferrous parts respectively.

 

I’d argue 60009 is Home in Scotland, it owes its survival to Scotland, it ended its days there, was preserved there by the very man who managed Scotland’s railways for BR, whom is Scottish through and thru.

If it wasn’t for it’s sole owner since 1966 spending his own money to save, give home to, and restore for your pleasure we wouldn’t even be having this conversation now. [...]

 

 

Thank you. It baffles me how many people seem to think that, because most of the population lives in England, all (rather than most) of the preserved locomotives should be there too. No 9 put in years of service in east Scotland, both before preservation and, more significantly in my view, afterwards. For two decades from the mid 1960s to mid 80s it was kept running by a local support team with very basic facilities. For non-enthusiasts in Scotland in the 1970s, all steam locomotives were A4s with chime whistles, because they never saw or heard anything else.

 

[...] I’d rather it be somewhere prominent front and centre to Scotland’s history at a place many more people would see it, and not necessarily railway centred, than is planned, but then I don’t own it and it’s not my money.

 

That is an arguable point, but don't forget there is a larger context. I spent the last week walking the Fife Coastal Path with friends. I hardly knew of it before, but I enjoyed it immensely - pristine fishing villages, stunning sandy beaches, fascinating industrial history, and peaceful beyond description. The path passes about a mile from the museum site. If you don't fancy walking, Elie (the nearest town, much favoured for holiday homes by the well-heeled citizens of Edinburgh) is a couple of hours from Edinburgh by bus, or an hour by car. If you like golf (I don't, but I gather many do) you are spoilt for choice. Whatever else some earlier contributors think about the proposed museum, it is neither remote, nor in a crazy location, nor an isolated attraction which would not attract visitors.

 

John Cameron must have been regarded as crazy to spend good money on buying an old steam loco as a farmer in his twenties by his peer group and his own family.  He risked his capital and credibility and triumphed. I have never met the man but am tremendously grateful to him for creating so many personal memories. I hope his project succeeds.

[Zomboid]

Thank you. It baffles me how many people seem to think that, because most of the population lives in England, all (rather than most) of the preserved locomotives should be there too. No 9 put in years of service in east Scotland, both before preservation and, more significantly in my view, afterwards. For two decades from the mid 1960s to mid 80s it was kept running by a local support team with very basic facilities. For non-enthusiasts in Scotland in the 1970s, all steam locomotives were A4s with chime whistles, because they never saw or heard anything else.

Interesting point. You could argue that the most significant part of its history is actually it's post BR career, particularly where for its time with LNER & BR, it was "just" an A4, and it's done more remarkable things since.

 

I wouldn't argue against such a point.

[Guest Lyonesse]

The NRM is just one branch of the Science Museum.  MOSI in Manchester has a Beyer Peacock 4-4-0 built for India/Pakistan and a 3'6''g. ex SAR GEA type Garratt representing locos built in Britain for export.  There is a North British built SAR 15F in the Glasgow Transport Museum and one, if not two, GMAM Garratts preserved elsewhere.  David Shepherd imported an ex Rhodesia Railway 4-8-0 which was displayed in the NRM for some time.  I think locos built for export are pretty well represented but I still don't see the relevance of the Japanese bullet train.

Ray.

The David Shepherd Zambesi Sawmills Railway 4-8-0 is at Locomotion in Shildon, or was the last time I was there.  And yes, I take the point about the other museum locos you mention.

[bobthesod4479]

Graham

 

I do know John and he is a most charming man, with great stories about his time with ScotRail, and has given this much thought. I, with tongue firmly in cheek, told him when all this animosity toward his decision was rife, and backed him up......His loco..His rules.... and chided him that if one engine was to be 'benched' it should be the A$ as they are 10 a penny, but the K4...that is a different kettle of fish.

[Guest Lyonesse]

If I recall correctly, the N(ational)RM was offered 5930 "Mount Shengena" when it was withdrawn from tourist excursion use in the 1990s; 5918 "Mount Gelai" was to be retained by the N(airobi)RM. The problem was the cost of shipping it from Mombasa (in fact the weight is 185 tons empty, 254 in working order): no-one would put up the money. 5930's boiler was actually in better condition, but unfortunately someone moved it dead without opening the cylinder cocks around 2000 and blew the end off a cylinder. The Nairobi museum only displays 5930 and 2401; the other two, 5918 and 2409, are stored elsewhere for safety, but are currently both unserviceable due to careless use and theft of nonferrous parts respectively.

 

I never knew that.  A great shame that it never came home.  I would have loved to see it.  I still have vague hopes of someday building EAR steam in 4mm scale.

[Steamport Southport]

Nevermind.

 

Number Ten looks like it might be up for "disposal" according to Steam Railway. Waddon as well.

 

 

 

 

Jason

[Guest Lyonesse]

Nevermind.

 

Number Ten looks like it might be up for "disposal" according to Steam Railway. Waddon as well.

 

 

 

 

Jason

Eh?  What is Number Ten.  What is Waddon?