60009 Union of South Africa & 61994 The Great Marquess

[Mallard60022]

Have you tried looking on Flickr?

Yes however I can't find any from yesterday but that's because I don't really know how to search

[Mallard60022]

I hadn't quite twigged it was two 09s yesterday! Deltic 09 was going well at 36E I can assure you.

P

[Mallard60022]

Irritated that I didn't check my diary, so missed what may have been its last run on home turf in reasonable weather and light.

 

I heard the other '09' coast undemonstrably past on the return trip. Alycidon is departing Wembley at 13:00 for home via the ECML today: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/U55473/2018/09/16/advanced

 

The Nim.

and UOSA (I think it is) is coming south tomorrow (Monday).....mid dayish at 36E, to Southall from Newcastle area.

P

[JamieR4489]

Here are the times for 60009's light engine movement.

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/U55457/2018/09/17/advanced

Edited September 16, 2018 by JamieR4489

[Sir Hadyn]

Towed by a red DB 66, right time at York

[Mallard60022]

Crew said that they had no idea what the red thing was doing on the front! Didn't need it, didn't want it, couldn't get rid of it!

P

[Horsetan]

Floorplan of what now seems to be named ‘The Cameron Visitor Centre’

 

https://planning.fife.gov.uk/online/files/55855CBD0B22630B66507F92A16D6860/pdf/17_03912_FULL-05_-_PROPOSED_FLOOR_PLAN-1976638.pdf

 

Looks like the planning application has been turned down, according to Steam Railway

[Dava]

There is no record of the decision on the Fife Regional Council planning system so far. I couldn't see an online news item in SR. The planning documents include a Policy Justification including the following text. Spot any errors?

 

"The proposal to provide a visitor centre for the two historic locomotives is unique and is unlikely to have been anticipated in the preparation of a Development Plan. The locomotives are of National and International importance. The “Union of South Africa” has been run in the United States and Australia and is a sister locomotive of “Mallard” which still holds the speed record for a steam locomotive and is on exhibition in the National Rail Museum in York. The “Great Marquess” is the sole survivor of its type. Both locomotives were based in Scotland during their working lives."

 

Dava

[phil-b259]

There is no record of the decision on the Fife Regional Council planning system so far. I couldn't see an online news item in SR. The planning documents include a Policy Justification including the following text. Spot any errors?

 

 

Steam Railway has something of a reputation when it comes to printing stories that turn out to not be all that they seem.....

 

It may be that the council / planning officer has issued a list of concerns they would like answers to and this has been interpreted by someone as an outright 'refusal'

[45568]

 The “Union of South Africa” has been run in the United States and AUSTRALIA and is a sister locomotive of “Mallard” which still holds the speed record for a steam locomotive."

 

Dava

Must have been before I got here in 1974!!!

Cheers from Oz,

Peter C.

[Mallard60022]

Oh, on a You-tube clip discussion some 'Cleaner' (Heritage line?) says that it was poor form that No9 was not beautifully clean and shiny, as the First Class punters would not be impressed and also that a dirty locomotive often reflects the condition of said loco. Pah and double pah!

I'm afraid I just could not help myself and was a little brusque with said 'Cleaner' and told him exactly what was what with No 9 and 150 miles from the X it would be a bit 'weathered' and that it was a proper job loco doing a proper job main line working, as it has been for many many days this year and not a nice Heritage line loco that got cleaned after every day's work.

Silly arse.

Phil  

[Ed-farms]

Whilst according to above Steam Railway suggests the proposal has been refused, heritage railway suggests that the delays in planning approval will see Union go on loan to the NYMR for a year, fingers crossed it will give us a last chance of a ride behind number 9

[adb968008]

Theres a lot of emtion about number 9 being retired, but whats the alternatives ?

 

It could join a commercial ventureof one of the mainline steam operators to run as hard and as often with as much or little care as they wish, or a preservation group which may not have funds to look after it and end up in pieces for years.

 

Look at 60007, spends most of its time preserved line running and needed major cash spending on it, 60009 hasnt beem immune to that either. Sole loco owners are increasingly hard to find, who have the pockets for this.

 

I’d rather see no 9 properly preserved than run hard to make profits for commercial ventures, or less well maintained by a down at heel preservation group.

 

60009 has performed well, and been well looked after by its owner, but if it cant run sympathatically on the mainline, its probably better in a museum, though personally i would have thought one of Scotlands more prestigious musuems like one of the National musuems of Scotland than some remote / rural location.

 

Whilst we like steam on the mainline, theres increasingly more to do with less people and money, looking at musuems and plinthed locations away from traditional preserved railways could do more for survival of locomotives in the long term as i doubt preserved railways will cope with the amount of steam about to be abandoned to these lines in the next few decades... Exactly what are your grand kids going to do with 30+ preserved Bulleid Pacific's maybe this will some day be the future of a Barry wreck Bulleid ?

https://experiencewroclaw.wordpress.com/2011/05/06/train-to-heaven-on-strzegomski-square/

 

https://goo.gl/images/xZaSrz

Remember you can't take it with you, even though this one tried...

Edited October 1, 2018 by adb968008

[brack]

To be honest we preserve an awful lot of stuff these days (not necessarily railway related - as a society there is a reasonably strong heritage ethos) and we will eventually run out of space/resources/motivation to keep it all, especially if we keep adding to the pile of stuff to preserve. Sooner or later the duplicate or commonplace items might need to be discarded (sorry, but I'd suggest tornado is more worthy of preservation than a duplicated bulleid Pacific if it comes down to it).

In the case of A4s there's less of a shortage of them, but the K4 is unique and the natural choice for running steam on the west highland.

I suspect a lot of the upset is the feeling that the current owner has decided to "take his ball home" if he doesn't feel able to play with them and plans to put them in a permanent mausoleum. He is the owner, it's his property and he's done enough to keep them running over the years, but it seems a shame to decide to lock them up rather than seek another custodian to keep them going. These aren't some ex Barry wreck, they're running locos in good condition and provided they're looked after and bits fixed/replaced when necessary should be fine for decades.

[Mallard60022]

About time it was loaned on a permanent basis to the National Collection? Fairly safe accommodation and would be seen my many.

Phil

[eldomtom2]

Can't imagine them being that interested in a second A4 when they have THE A4.

[Mallard60022]

Can't imagine them being that interested in a second A4 when they have THE A4.

I see your point, however, THE A4 doesn't puff and move under it's own steam (literally) and make nice noises. No 9 does not need a Main Line Cert to play around the RM, just a Boiler Cert AFAIK. It would make a very good example of a workaday Pacific that sometimes ran along the ECML outside the RM (not often, but sometimes). 

Phil

[brack]

About time it was loaned on a permanent basis to the National Collection? Fairly safe accommodation and would be seen my many.

Phil

Careful now, there's some precedent for 'regifting' unique items recently and it'd be duplicating Mallard...

[Mallard60022]

Careful now, there's some precedent for 'regifting' unique items recently and it'd be duplicating Mallard...

No idea what you mean I'm afraid and as for duplicating Mallard? It is a very different looking locomotive in many ways and is an example of a loco running in the early 60s, not an LNER example as was in 1938. In a way it shows how an A4 looked when new and when it was near the end of its' career.

Phil

Edited October 2, 2018 by Mallard60022

[Bomag]

No idea what you mean I'm afraid ...

Phil

 

Perhaps we need a satire tag.

[eldomtom2]

No idea what you mean I'm afraid and as for duplicating Mallard? It is a very different looking locomotive in many ways and is an example of a loco running in the early 60s, not an LNER example as was in 1938. In a way it shows how an A4 looked when new and when it was near the end of its' career.

Phil

The T3 was rather infamously a year ago removed from the NRM's collection and gifted to the Swanage Railway. As for representing the A4 class as it was post-war, that is too fine-detail for the NRM - that's of interest to the history of the A4s, not British railway history as a whole. If the NRM wants to acquire new locos there are much more significant gaps - I don't believe they have a rack loco for instance.

[Mallard60022]

The T3 was rather infamously a year ago removed from the NRM's collection and gifted to the Swanage Railway. As for representing the A4 class as it was post-war, that is too fine-detail for the NRM - that's of interest to the history of the A4s, not British railway history as a whole. If the NRM wants to acquire new locos there are much more significant gaps - I don't believe they have a rack loco for instance.

I have to disagree I'm afraid. The RM does not have an example of of a post Nationalisation A4 so why would they not like the opportunity to look after it (not necessarily own it) and use it as an opportunity to tell another part of the story of the changes to locomotives during the years that so many people have either lived througfh or remember quite well?

Yes, there are significant gaps in the collection, fair point. What do they really need and could be available to fulfill your fine idea of demonstrating the history of the railways of Britain (and NI?) genuine question but not part of this Thread really.

If they can acquire a Rack Loco then fine but isn't the only British Rack railway system on Snowdon? I don't know much about that sort of railway and if there were others? Personally them borrowing one of these over a period of time, perhaps for a special project  then fine, but unless the SMR want to get rid of one of their locomotives or one is retired due to being beyond practical servicing then where will there be an example (or am I missing something/)

Quote from RM: “We concluded that gifting the T3 to a well-respected heritage railway and one with which it has strong historical connection, would better enable it to be enjoyed by the public for future generations.”

I think this is a fair comment from the RM about the T3 and it may well be seen by many more people and certainly many that would never get as far North as Shildon, unless they were a serious enthusiast. The Museum's thinking that certain historic items should/could be outstationed at  respected and well organised and managed sites, so they may be seen by more people, is a sensible move. It could well receive maintenance that the RM (not NRM any more I was told rather bluntly recently) do not have the resources to provide at the moment.

I appreciate the direction this discussion is taking but, as it is not really just about the A4 and the other one in the title, perhaps we should move it to another Thread? I'd enjoy discussing this further as it is not something I've looked at before.

Now, don't get me wrong, I think the RM in both buildings, is rather clinical and certainly something that becomes a bit ordinary after a load of visits such as I have made, unless one is visiting to study or search for particular things and also to find the hidden gems in the glory hole at York's building. I also have thought that some of their 'clever ideas' have been a bit weird, but bringing a 'live A4' into the places would be a good money spinner from enthusiasts for a period of time and something fresh, and hopefully alive for the day to day visitors to look at. 

Phil

Edited October 3, 2018 by Mallard60022

[TomJ]

I think that an A4 plodding along at a few mph forwards and backwards for half a mile on the demonstration line would be one of the sadder sights in preservation.

[Silver Sidelines]

Hi Tom

 

I have to agree. 

 

The NYMR has some fantastic scenery but I was uneasy with a trip behind Sir Nigel through the leafy woods at 20 or 30 mph?

 

I think that an A4 plodding along at a few mph forwards and backwards for half a mile on the demonstration line would be one of the sadder sights in preservation.

 

Still better than nothing and if it helps keep these machines in working condition then so much the better.

 

A bit like myself taking the MG out to Tesco each week.

 

Cheers Ray

[Guest Lyonesse]

I have to disagree I'm afraid. The RM does not have an example of of a post Nationalisation A4 so why would they not like the opportunity to look after it (not necessarily own it) and use it as an opportunity to tell another part of the story of the changes to locomotives during the years that so many people have either lived througfh or remember quite well?

Yes, there are significant gaps in the collection, fair point. What do they really need and could be available to fulfill your fine idea of demonstrating the history of the railways of Britain (and NI?) genuine question but not part of this Thread really.

If they can acquire a Rack Loco then fine but isn't the only British Rack railway system on Snowdon? I don't know much about that sort of railway and if there were others? Personally them borrowing one of these over a period of time, perhaps for a special project  then fine, but unless the SMR want to get rid of one of their locomotives or one is retired due to being beyond practical servicing then where will there be an example (or am I missing something/)

Quote from RM: “We concluded that gifting the T3 to a well-respected heritage railway and one with which it has strong historical connection, would better enable it to be enjoyed by the public for future generations.”

I think this is a fair comment from the RM about the T3 and it may well be seen by many more people and certainly many that would never get as far North as Shildon, unless they were a serious enthusiast. The Museum's thinking that certain historic items should/could be outstationed at  respected and well organised and managed sites, so they may be seen by more people, is a sensible move. It could well receive maintenance that the RM (not NRM any more I was told rather bluntly recently) do not have the resources to provide at the moment.

I appreciate the direction this discussion is taking but, as it is not really just about the A4 and the other one in the title, perhaps we should move it to another Thread? I'd enjoy discussing this further as it is not something I've looked at before.

Now, don't get me wrong, I think the RM in both buildings, is rather clinical and certainly something that becomes a bit ordinary after a load of visits such as I have made, unless one is visiting to study or search for particular things and also to find the hidden gems in the glory hole at York's building. I also have thought that some of their 'clever ideas' have been a bit weird, but bringing a 'live A4' into the places would be a good money spinner from enthusiasts for a period of time and something fresh, and hopefully alive for the day to day visitors to look at. 

Phil

Snowdon is the only rack system in the UK (using Swiss locomotives) but the Nilgiri Mountain Railway was a British rack railway.

 

The NRM is rather parochial.  It has the Shinkansen (important, but no British connection), and the Vulcan-built Chinese 4-8-4, but nothing about the British built and run railways overseas.  They don't just ignore the large colonial systems --- India, Egypt/Sudan, East Africa (meter) and South Africa (cape gauge) --- but also the Argentine (5ft 6in) and Brazilian (5ft 3in, with express Beyer-Garratts) railways.