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OO gauge GWR Mogul and Prairie


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On 14/11/2020 at 21:43, MonsalDan said:

I think I read that Brassmasters were considering doing an easichas or something for this so watch this space.

Brassmasters’ blog confirms they are starting work on an easichassis . Good news.

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17 minutes ago, Miss Prism said:

 

That sounds sensible.

 

Works grey portraits ceased after 1929, I think.

 

 

They were still around in at least 1934 as per pics of locos with Roundel logo in the 1938 Engine Book. Some locos are grey, some green so appears to have changed between 1934-1938.

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52 minutes ago, BMS said:

Comment to Checkrails; are you able to tell us what the Zimo type and what the basic CV values s are, excluding the sound ones, please?

 

Comment to Melmerbry I spend my time and money doing what I want or need to. I don't now drive. Why does that bother you?

 

What do you mean by basic CVs @BMS?

 

The decoder will drive the loco perfectly well with its default settings. Any tweaks after that are personal taste and how @checkrail sets them may not be how you would set them. (Things like acceleration, deceleration, top speed, active braking, etc...)

 

BTW: If checkrail's model was Non-sound DCC fitted by Dapol then the decoder is probably not Zimo. The manual says it will be an "Imperium" in that case. But the only sure way to tell is either look at it or read it's identity in the controller.

 

(Dapol sound-fitted models will be Zimo according to the manual.)

 

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55 minutes ago, Gopher said:

Does anyone know if the DCC sound fitted version has two speakers installed, or just the one in the loco ?

The sound fitted version has a bass speaker fitted in the tender as well according to the manual.

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To Harlequin

Basic CVs - those define by NMRA without manufacturer's extensions which are usually for sound or fancy features.  

My experience is that fitting non Dapol decoders to Dapol locos, at the time I did it, needed the CVs reworking to overcome jerky or non- existent movement and also erroneous and incomplete lighting. I appreciate that decoders need to be 6 function and MTC capable. Rather than mess up the decoder CVs I opted to try the Imperiums initially before potentially returning the models with decoder removed of course..

On fitting Imperium decoders the performance  instantly, and on separate occasions, which were months apart,  got the individual diesels working as I had hoped; this applied specifically on both the Class 22 and earlier Class 122.

Obviously Dapol supplied sound locos with whoever's decoders will have the required cv values; a program such as JMRI Decoder pro would produce the full set without the owner needing to select each one individually. The full set would obviously include specific sound cv's which are not relevant to my interest (and possibly others) and Decoder Pro has the capability of doing a selection of non-sound values  for other people's needs as it appears from the performances listed earlier in the forum that the problem is still around on the 43s etc , and the person with sound equipped has the same modelas those in difficulty which I don't.

Hope this helps - might help I hope.

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6 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

Oh well, that's me sticking with analogue for at least another five years.:triniti:

As long as DC does what you need, why change? Just don't get too bothered by some of the DCC issues you read about on RMweb. I've been using it for 23 years, and it is very simple. Very minor mods to a handful of CVs are sometimes needed in my experience - and you'd quickly learn that doing that takes no time at all. A train driver gets to know the acceleration and braking characteristics of the train he is driving. They aren't all the same. DCC-equipped trains, just like DC ones, are equally varied in performance. 

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4 hours ago, BMS said:

Comment to Checkrails; are you able to tell us what the Zimo type and what the basic CV values s are, excluding the sound ones, please?

RTFM they say, so I've just had another, less cursory, look at the owner's manuaL.   According to p4 "if a DCC or* sound fitted version has been purchased ........  The decoder fitted is a Zimo MX658N18", but then on p10 it says that DCC factory fitted models "are fitted with an Imperium DCC decoder".  So I guess mine's actually the latter (I don't do sound).  No idea re CV values - haven't tried to read them yet.

 

*  my italics

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5 hours ago, 57xx said:

 

They were still around in at least 1934 as per pics of locos with Roundel logo in the 1938 Engine Book. Some locos are grey, some green so appears to have changed between 1934-1938.

 

In general works grey portraits survived until the C.M.E. (or the appropriate assistant) was satisfied that the film being used for the portrait was good enough to capture the required detail on an engine painted in livery.  This was different from railway to railway, and there were reversions during World war 2 as photographic film became more difficult to obtain.  There were also overlaps where the same engine had works grey then the photograph was repeated in livery - and occasionally more than once if someone spotted a livery error.  Not that the GWR would ever have admitted to such a thing, though there are odd examples elsewhere...

 

Hope this helps.

Les

 

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20 minutes ago, melmerby said:

Had an e-mail from Derails saying that they are sorry they haven't despatched my Mogul yet because Dapol haven't supplied any them yet!

They have had their order confirmed and expect them soon.

 

Dapol are working through a backlog of over 2000 orders from the end of the Dapol club.  I received my N-gauge A4 today after a wait of 2 weeks.  I still have a Terrier outstanding from the same day- and presumably fewer staff than normal are in due to Covid issues (though to be fair I don't know that for a fact).

 

Les

 

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16 hours ago, melmerby said:

Had an e-mail from Derails saying that they are sorry they haven't despatched my Mogul yet because Dapol haven't supplied any them yet!

They have had their order confirmed and expect them soon.

 

Got the same mail, nice comms from Little Dan. More than happy to wait to help the small outlets with my custom.

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Ken asked me to keep him posted on my progress towards converting the Dapol mogul to EM with the added challenge of locating the motor in the tender so that the Dapol loco's body could be filled completely with ballast to obtain maximum traction.  I am still awaiting delivery of my mogul from Kernow but have been advised that it was despatched on Friday so in the meantime I have started doing some preparatory design work in CAD.  The intention is to prepare a set of etches for replacement loco and  inside tender frames.  Whilst I'm doing this principally for my own benefit I will ensure that the design is suitable for any other EM or S4 modeller  who might want to do the same thing.

 

The first stage has been to photocopy a set of line drawings for the mogul and to import them into CAD.  These drawings have then been scaled so that they are exactly 4mm / ft in the tool.  I tend to do a lot of my initial design work over the top of the line drawings so that I can be sure that the components are as accurate as I can make them.  In this specific case the burning question is whether I can actually fit a suitable motor and drive mechanism into what is the quite restricted height of the Churchward tender.  As you can see from the first illustration, by using a small but powerful coreless motor (13mm x 20mm) as supplied by Chris Gibbon at High Level Kits I can just squeeze it in the available vertical space.  Of course, once I take delivery of my model and take the tender apart I may find that there is something inside the body of the tender that will skupper my plans, but hopefully not!

 

image.png.a55ba93f865a1ded318924f65602e5f9.png

 

This first illustration highlights the planned position of the drive shaft which will sit just below the level of the tender's valance and will be tilted very slightly upwards to align with the back of the gear box on the rear axle of the loco.  The drive shaft will be driven through a pair of high level spur gears and will rotate in small ball races attached to the same mounts as the motor.  The gearbox in the loco will use the gears from a High Level RoadRunner+ unit but I have drawn up a new frame to house both them and two further ball races in which the drive shaft holding the worm gear will rotate.

 

The 2nd illustration is of the various components that I have drawn up so far for the tender, along with the gearbox frame for the loco.   These will be organised within an etching frame once I have all the components prepared.  The black indicates where I require metal.  The red indcates where the metal is to be half etched down from the top surface and the blue indicates where I need the metal to be half etched from underneath.  

 

image.png.31bb988cdfbce12427081ed8fd5edee8.png

I'm now going to turn my attention to the replacement frames for the loco.  I could use Comet frames but as I've got to do bespoke etches for the tender and gearbox I might as well go the whole hog and do the loco's frames as well, along with what has become the controversial replacement slide bars and crossheads.  

 

I hope that this has been of interest (to Ken at least) and I will include further installments as I go along.

 

Regards,

 

Frank

 

 

    

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46 minutes ago, Chuffer Davies said:

Ken asked me to keep him posted on my progress towards converting the Dapol mogul to EM with the added challenge of locating the motor in the tender so that the Dapol loco's body could be filled completely with ballast to obtain maximum traction.  I am still awaiting delivery of my mogul from Kernow but have been advised that it was despatched on Friday so in the meantime I have started doing some preparatory design work in CAD.  The intention is to prepare a set of etches for replacement loco and  inside tender frames.  Whilst I'm doing this principally for my own benefit I will ensure that the design is suitable for any other EM or S4 modeller  who might want to do the same thing.

 

The first stage has been to photocopy a set of line drawings for the mogul and to import them into CAD.  These drawings have then been scaled so that they are exactly 4mm / ft in the tool.  I tend to do a lot of my initial design work over the top of the line drawings so that I can be sure that the components are as accurate as I can make them.  In this specific case the burning question is whether I can actually fit a suitable motor and drive michanism into what is the quite restricted height of the Churchward tender.  As you can see from the first illustration, by using a small but powerful coreless motor (13mm x 20mm) as supplied by Chris Gibbon at High Level Kits I can just squeeze it in the available vertical space.  Of course, once I take delivery of my model and take the tender apart I may find that there is something inside the body of the tender that will skupper my plans, but hopefully not!

 

image.png.a55ba93f865a1ded318924f65602e5f9.png

 

This first illustration highlights the planned position of the drive shaft which will sit just below the level of the tender's valance and will be tilted very slightly upwards to align with the back of the gear box on the rear axle of the loco.  The drive shaft will be driven through a pair of high level spur gears and will rotate in small ball races attached to the same mounts as the motor.  The gearbox in the loco will use the gears from a High Level RoadRunner+ unit but I have drawn up a new frame to house both them and two further ball races in which the drive shaft holding the worm gear will rotate.

 

The 2nd illustration is of the various components that I have drawn up so far for the tender, along with the gearbox frame for the loco.   These will be organised within an etching frame once I have all the components prepared.  The black indicates where I require metal.  The red indcates where the metal is to be half etched down from the top surface and the blue indicates where I need the metal to be half etched from underneath.  

 

image.png.31bb988cdfbce12427081ed8fd5edee8.png

I'm now going to turn my attention to the replacement frames for the loco.  I could use Comet frames but as I've got to do bespoke etches for the tender and gearbox I might as well go the whole hog and do the loco's frames as well, along with what has become the controversial replacement slide bars and crossheads.  

 

I hope that this has been of interest (to Ken at least) and I will include further installments as I go along.

 

Regards,

 

Frank

 

 

    

Great stuff! Thanks and I look forward to more updates . Ken 

 

 

 

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Considering the things that are not listed as 'spares' Dapol appear to be generating an impressive range of potential body shell combinations for variation amongst the (approx) 63xx Moguls, covering: high/low wash out plugs - outside steam pipes/no outside steam pipes - long/short safety valve covers.

 

It will be interesting to see how many different variants they do produce.

 

 

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3 hours ago, Chuffer Davies said:

along with what has become the controversial replacement slide bars and crossheads.  

 

Having put Whitbourne models chassis to P4 under Mainline 43xx bodies I do so hope the cylinders are at least the correct distance apart so the slidebars or their replacements will be. I am bemused by what Dapol have done with them. If they are metal perhaps they can simply be bent back again. Those chassis had replacement cylinders and correct size/width slidebars/crossheads and there was precious little room behind them and the wheel faces. Recessed crankpins were mandatory along with minimal sideplay.  So I do wonder if you will be able to re-use the Dapol wheels, even in EM, without thinning them down in some way to get enough clearance. I will follow this with interest and hope it all works out.

 

Izzy

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4 minutes ago, Izzy said:

 

Having put Whitbourne models chassis to P4 under Mainline 43xx bodies I do so hope the cylinders are at least the correct distance apart so the slidebars or their replacements will be. I am bemused by what Dapol have done with them. If they are metal perhaps they can simply be bent back again. Those chassis had replacement cylinders and correct size/width slidebars/crossheads and there was precious little room behind them and the wheel faces. Recessed crankpins were mandatory along with minimal sideplay.  So I do wonder if you will be able to re-use the Dapol wheels, even in EM, without thinning them down in some way to get enough clearance. I will follow this with interest and hope it all works out.

 

Izzy

Hi Izzy,

I’ve not heard of the Whitbourne models chassis...  There are so many small businesses, it’s hard to keep track of them all.  
 

I’ve only  designed a replacement chassis for one outside cylinder loco before and not Great Western, but for that I just scaled down the prototype’s dimensions over the cylinders and slide bars.  As you indicated this then required the leading crank pin to be recessed to avoid the cross head interfering with the crank pin in EM but as yet I’ve no dimensions for the distance over leading crank pin faces in S4.  If you can provide them I can ensure that the slide bars are set far enough apart for S4 even if this means off setting them slightly in the cylinders.

 

The Dapol wheels do look rather good but commercial wheels tend to be too wide causing problems with clearances and so I’ll have to wait and see if they are suitable.  I have a set of Ultrascale wheels in stock so these are what I’m expecting to use. 
 

Regards,

 

Frank
 

 

 

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13 hours ago, Chuffer Davies said:

Hi Izzy,

I’ve not heard of the Whitbourne models chassis...  There are so many small businesses, it’s hard to keep track of them all.  
 

I’ve only  designed a replacement chassis for one outside cylinder loco before and not Great Western, but for that I just scaled down the prototype’s dimensions over the cylinders and slide bars.  As you indicated this then required the leading crank pin to be recessed to avoid the cross head interfering with the crank pin in EM but as yet I’ve no dimensions for the distance over leading crank pin faces in S4.  If you can provide them I can ensure that the slide bars are set far enough apart for S4 even if this means off setting them slightly in the cylinders.

 

The Dapol wheels do look rather good but commercial wheels tend to be too wide causing problems with clearances and so I’ll have to wait and see if they are suitable.  I have a set of Ultrascale wheels in stock so these are what I’m expecting to use. 
 

Regards,

 

Frank
 

 

 

 

 

Hi Frank,

 

As Miss P says, long gone, a product from the 1980's when I built most of them for others. Very good even for today, with adjustments for current tastes, hornblocks, csb's etc. You will understand I have no interest in GWR myself. But in recent times I 'found' a new/boxed Mainline 43xx in the loft along with all the conversion bits so made it up as a change from the norm. It is this recent experience which reminded me of the aspects to watch out for.

 

As to P4 standards I can do no better than direct you here; 

https://www.scalefour.org/p4-standards/

 

But basically you need 22mm minimum inside splashers for clearance. I have used Gibson wheels and they are just under this figure over tyre width, about 21.7mm nominal, and 22.7mm over the centres. Obviously this latter measurement varies according to the wheel centre design/profile. Most P4 wheel tyres are 2mm width, again nominally.

 

Here is an upended shot of the loco showing the clearance behind the slidebars. Enough.....just.

1332967201_RMweb09.jpg.d3520953833797a1bb93bc60ac3b5097.jpg

 

And the right way up.

 

949877763_RMweb10.jpg.f53c0bd348e9bd7e1a06580e5b6077d7.jpg

 

Sorry it's a poorish shot, not quite sharp.

 

I think this is better

 

915596274_RMweb08.jpg.fe082a4528fcb31923ed8ed8ce0f4bef.jpg

 

It's uses a Mitsumi motor & HL 60-1 box plus a Zimo MX600 decoder.  I haven't bothered with sound as per my other 4mm locos since I don't really need/want it being an exGE modeller.

 

Anyway I hope this info helps, and I'm sorry for intruding on this Dapol thread.

 

Izzy

 

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Here are a few photos of my sound installation:

 

MogulCoalGrille1.jpg.fc46af44cc3bc74605d824080af3a949.jpg

 

I removed the plastic coal load and to improve the sound, I cut a hole in the tank, covered with insect mesh, then glued chunky loco coal in using Copydex. The gluing takes a few iterations to ensure that the mesh is hidden and to build the shape you want.

 

The result is that sound will now come directly from the speaker, through the grille, and between the coal lumps, instead of being bounced around in the plastic tender body and coming out underneath.

 

I used a Zimo 40*20*9 speaker because I thought it gave the best sound of the speakers I tried without requiring any grinding of the tender weight block. The corners of the 3D printed speaker had to be rounded off to allow it to sit down in the cast metal speaker well and thus allow the body to fit down properly.

 

Back together:

MogulCoalGrille2.jpg.5421c06fad3f7f4c8c6b1a3ad6025342.jpg

 

The running plates line up, there was no feeling of the body flexing when the screws were tightened so it's just about a perfect fit and it sounds great (within the limitations of the sound project.)

 

IMG_20201122_092015r.jpg.f579eca29fc7cb1aff9cef34c3f23ba6.jpg

I have used this technique before but this is the first time I've been able to show the tender with a partial load instead of brimming with coal and that made me realise that it would be better to (a.) weather the coal space before fitting the coal and (b.) have some finer grade bits around while being careful they don't block the grille. The advantage of using Copydex is that I can easily remove the load and do that one day.

 

So, room to improve but I think the basic technique is sound (ha ha!).

 

P.S. If you're fitting your own sugar cube speaker in the smokebox it's very important that it is sealed to the clip-on enclosure otherwise you might get buzzing on sounds like the whistles. I used Copydex for that too.

 

Edited by Harlequin
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3 hours ago, Izzy said:

 

 

Hi Frank,

 

As Miss P says, long gone, a product from the 1980's when I built most of them for others. Very good even for today, with adjustments for current tastes, hornblocks, csb's etc. You will understand I have no interest in GWR myself. But in recent times I 'found' a new/boxed Mainline 43xx in the loft along with all the conversion bits so made it up as a change from the norm. It is this recent experience which reminded me of the aspects to watch out for.

 

As to P4 standards I can do no better than direct you here; 

https://www.scalefour.org/p4-standards/

 

But basically you need 22mm minimum inside splashers for clearance. I have used Gibson wheels and they are just under this figure over tyre width, about 21.7mm nominal, and 22.7mm over the centres. Obviously this latter measurement varies according to the wheel centre design/profile. Most P4 wheel tyres are 2mm width, again nominally.

 

Here is an upended shot of the loco showing the clearance behind the slidebars. Enough.....just.

1332967201_RMweb09.jpg.d3520953833797a1bb93bc60ac3b5097.jpg

 

And the right way up.

 

949877763_RMweb10.jpg.f53c0bd348e9bd7e1a06580e5b6077d7.jpg

 

Sorry it's a poorish shot, not quite sharp.

 

I think this is better

 

915596274_RMweb08.jpg.fe082a4528fcb31923ed8ed8ce0f4bef.jpg

 

It's uses a Mitsumi motor & HL 60-1 box plus a Zimo MX600 decoder.  I haven't bothered with sound as per my other 4mm locos since I don't really need/want it being an exGE modeller.

 

Anyway I hope this info helps, and I'm sorry for intruding on this Dapol thread.

 

Izzy

 

Hi Izzy,

Thanks for the pictures.  I have to admit the P4 wheels do look superb.   Your pictures allow us to compare the new Dapol offering to the old Mainline body.  I have to admit that there's not a lot in it, both capture the look of the prototype convincingly.  So the Whitbourne chassis was a product of the 80's, I might well have been a customer had I known of them at the time.  I certainly built a number of Perseverance chassis around that period.    

 

I've looked at the S4 Society data sheets before but the critical measurements for spacing the slidebars are not provided and can not be reliably determined.  Your post triggered a distant memory and I remembered that I have a set of P4 mogul wheels (Ultrascale)  that were included in a kit I purchased years ago, so I'm going to gauge up a pair with the appropriate crank pins so that I can measure the distance across the faces of the lead crank pins.  I'll then add 0.4mm to allow for clearances and this will give me the dimension required between the backs of the cross heads.

 

Thanks,

 

Frank

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