Diesels come to Pendon! Form an orderly queue!

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Full-size locos have to be maintained, pieces of equipment exchanged and the like.

 

What's different about models which (by all accounts) have certainly earned their keep (in terms of mileage) over the years?

 

Options:

Work Guy's locos to death

 

Rebuild them to keep on running

 

Retire them into a glass showcase and replace with new handbuilt (and/or) detailed ready made locos / kits

[Phil Parker]

The way I read Phils post is that there are some within the hobby that have given him 'Sainthood' and that to touch the locos he built would be sacrelage, I didn't see an insult to him from Phil but a remedy to a situation when repairs become paramount. If you re-read it he suggests replacing them with detailed RTR to keep them running for longer .

This is EXACTLY what I meant. There is a deserved mystique about these locomotives that means for a small but vocal minority, means any work carried out on them could never be good enough. I'd certainly be nervous about working on them, fortunately this won't be an issue. I was never fortunate enough to know the man, but his writing suggests someone eminently practical who wouldn't be so precious, and when people say he expected rebuilds I'm not surprised.

 

That said, I'd still be in favour of a minimum amount of work on them as these models are special, but ultimately it's not my problem and I'm not sorry not to bear the responsibility!

[bécasse]

Guy always said his locos would require rebuilding during their lifetime which by replacing things like motors, wheels motors etc can indeed last forever. The issue it seems is that Pendon no longer attracts the skilled modellers to undertake such tasks. 

 

I would suggest that the problem is not so much that Pendon no longer attracts the skilled modellers to undertake such tasks, but that, increasingly, they no longer exist. As one of the very first modellers to exhibit a P4 layout, I used to think of that as a young person's game but I remember thinking the last time I attended Scaleforum in 2010 before moving abroad that there were no longer any visitors under 40 (and that was being generous). One would have to be very certain of one's skills and abilities to tackle one of Guy's locos, because of its historical relevance (and the need to ascertain the right technique, Guy's writings won't tell you everything), thus building a new loco from a quality kit would actually be easier in practice and less worrying, if one makes a mistake one can get help and replacement parts from the supplier. And it is still possible to get quality kits built by a professional modeller at a reasonable price, perhaps helped by donations.

[bécasse]

Full-size locos have to be maintained, pieces of equipment exchanged and the like.

 

What's different about models which (by all accounts) have certainly earned their keep (in terms of mileage) over the years?

 

Options:

Work Guy's locos to death

 

Rebuild them to keep on running

 

Retire them into a glass showcase and replace with new handbuilt (and/or) detailed ready made locos / kits

 

Actually there is a fourth (or perhaps third plus) option and that is to put them (eventually) in a glass case before they wear out but take them out occasionally for a Guy Williams memorial running day, it would probably be sensible to have several a year just to keep the models "sweet". [somewhat akin to the Madder Valley running days in fact].

[Denbridge]

Actually there is a fourth (or perhaps third plus) option and that is to put them (eventually) in a glass case before they wear out but take them out occasionally for a Guy Williams memorial running day, it would probably be sensible to have several a year just to keep the models "sweet". [somewhat akin to the Madder Valley running days in fact].

defeats the whole object of Pendon and im certain its not what Guy nor the otjer loco builders would want. Same would then have to apply to the stock and indeed the track. What is needed are people to do that kind of maintenance. The Pendon models are extremely well built and with repair and maintainance can last indefinitely. Certainly longer than modern rtr ever will.

[t-b-g]

It is no better or worse than many a real "preserved" vehicle, either railway, road or other, where so much material has been replaced that it is more "new" than "old".

 

I have a similar situation to think about with keeping Buckingham running. There is, if you think about it, nothing on a model loco that can't be renewed or replaced. If a motor is worn on a Guy Williams loco, replace it. He didn't make the motors himself so you are not undoing any of his work. Wheels worn? The same. Bearings? Is anybody really going to get precious about a loco being fitted with new bearings? Body work doesn't really wear out. It may need a touch up of the paint but shouldn't need more than that. Any dents or bent parts could be straightened.

 

I have replaced a motor on one Buckingham loco and made new coupling rods for another and have replaced the pick ups on several. Two have been repainted as there was nothing left of the original lettering and lining. They look like they did 40 years ago now.

 

I took my guidance from the Denny family. I asked how they would like me to deal with things as they wore out and the answer was that I should do what their father would have done. Do what is necessary to keep the things running. Given the choice of seeing a Guy Williams loco running with a new motor and wheels or a RTR converted to Pendon standards, there is no contest for me but a good number of visitors wouldn't know the difference.

 

The problem is, as has been pointed out, the lack of people with the skills, abilities, inclination and time to do the work. I don't know all the ins and outs of how Pendon is run now but it can't be easy working on the dream project of Roye England, with Guy Williams as his "chief engineer" when neither of them are there. I think that there are people out there with the skills and abilities. Perhaps even the time. I think some are put off by the perception that you have to be a bit of a modelling expert to have your work accepted at Pendon. That is something I think the people running it could do some work on. Changing that perception may encourage more to come forward.

 

I am more inclined to be thankful for what they get up to at Pendon rather than criticise them. I have visited several times, am a "Friend" and have even run one of their modelling sessions there but it is a long way for a day out from Yorkshire, so visits are limited but always inspirational.

 

 If I didn't have Buckingham and a couple of other layout projects I am involved with and if I was a GWR enthusiast, it may well be something I would get involved with but as it is, I have enough on.

[BlackRat]

Haven't been for a few years, and the last time had an interesting conversation about the future etc, as Pendon is of course firmly routed in the past.

 

One thing we chatted about is the development of new techniques ( and look where we are now with laser cutting, 3D printing etc) so do we say that these things have no place there?

 

It's great to see that Modelu are now producing Pendon figures and I am sure if they could have made use of this years ago then they would have.

 

Pendon and it's builders have always been a source of inspiration and having the odd diesel running on the odd day can't do any harm at all and might even encourage one or two to have a go at whatever it is they need to have a go at.

 

Time moves on, things develop and change and evolve, including museums and often they can be the better for it.

[Ian J.]

Is it still possible to get motors of the right size/type/fitting for Guy Williams' locos?

[Chris M]

Whatever people’s views there is no denying that Pendon has got plenty of free publicity here and elsewhere by running a few diesels.

I’ve never been because it always seems to be closed when I think about going. This thread has reminded me to think about going again,

[caradoc]

Whatever people’s views there is no denying that Pendon has got plenty of free publicity here and elsewhere by running a few diesels.

I’ve never been because it always seems to be closed when I think about going. This thread has reminded me to think about going again,

 

I am fortunate to have grown up not far from Pendon, in Oxford, and I still have access to a free hotel there (ie Mum's house !), so have been many times since the 1970s, and every visit is a delight. The opening hours are limited, and it is not the easiest place to get to unless by car (ironically the very instrument that has done more than anything to destroy the England portrayed by Pendon), but it is well worth going if you possibly can. 

[Peter Kazmierczak]

I nearly went once, but it was a toss-up between taking photos of Didcot power station (before it was largely demolished) and the GWML (before

the overhead wires were erected) or visiting Pendon.

 

Afraid I took the former options...…

 

Maybe one day.

[bécasse]

I am fortunate to have grown up not far from Pendon, in Oxford, and I still have access to a free hotel there (ie Mum's house !), so have been many times since the 1970s, and every visit is a delight. The opening hours are limited, and it is not the easiest place to get to unless by car (ironically the very instrument that has done more than anything to destroy the England portrayed by Pendon), but it is well worth going if you possibly can. 

 

The easiest way to access Pendon by public transport is to do what I did regularly half-a-century ago. Take a local train to Appleford (Appleford Halt then!), walk east through Appleford village and then by field paths to Long Wittenham which come out on to the street within a very short distance of the Museum. A very pleasant 20-25 minutes walk - I even did it on occasion in deep snow, and I regularly returned to Appleford in winter that way after dark with the aid of a torch.

Edited August 24, 2018 by bécasse

[MarkSG]

Is it still possible to get motors of the right size/type/fitting for Guy Williams' locos?

 

I would have thought it's probably easier now than it's ever been, given the way that the Internet has opened up access to suppliers from all over the world.

[Talltim]

I don’t know, but I get the impression that the majority of the models at Pendon were built by a relatively small group of people, especially with regards to the trains. Thus the loss of one person who is willing to put their modelling time to Pendon rather than their own projects is greatly felt. I don’t think there is a lack of people skilled enough, just a lack of people skilled enough who aren’t either doing their own thing or have gone professional.

['CHARD]

I don’t know, but I get the impression that the majority of the models at Pendon were built by a relatively small group of people, especially with regards to the trains. Thus the loss of one person who is willing to put their modelling time to Pendon rather than their own projects is greatly felt. I don’t think there is a lack of people skilled enough, just a lack of people skilled enough who aren’t either doing their own thing or have gone professional.

 

Having read and followed this thread, I'd hesitantly and respectfully add that I think there's possibly an element of nervousness about offering ones' 'services,' resulting from the perceived attitude or mindset of those who run the show.  The way that Phil Parker (himself a moderator) was misunderstood up-thread, in my view nailed this.

[Phil Parker]

Having read and followed this thread, I'd hesitantly and respectfully add that I think there's possibly an element of nervousness about offering ones' 'services,' resulting from the perceived attitude or mindset of those who run the show.  The way that Phil Parker (himself a moderator) was misunderstood up-thread, in my view nailed this.

 

From my experience of the people running things at Pendon, offers of assistance are welcomed with open arms. OK, there is a bit of a test to pass if you want to make models for the Vale scene (you make an outside toilet as I recall) but that's not unreasonable. One of the successes of the scene is that all the models sit harmoniously within it despite being built by different people at different times. This means you have to work to Pendon standards and styles, not your own. 

 

No, the howls I would expect would be from those too busy/important to actually sully themselves in helping out because they need to be in the interweb all day. 

 

Of course, it might be less of a problem than I imagine. You don't develop those skills at a computer, you earn them doing stuff on the workbench, so you probably aren't listening...

[MarkSG]

OK, there is a bit of a test to pass if you want to make models for the Vale scene (you make an outside toilet as I recall) but that's not unreasonable.

 

Quite appropriate, really, I would have thought, They don't want to be caught with their pants down as a consequence of someone dumping a pile of cr*p on the Vale. 

 

 

 

 

 

Sorry, I'll get my coat.

[brack]

So does there need to be a similar challenge before you're allowed to build a loco?

I'd suggest if you can build one of these you can manage anything Swindon turned out.

 

In all seriousness there is a danger in putting the existing stock and those who created on such a pedestal that others are intimidated and don't think they could contribute, even though they may well be skilled enough. I certainly haven't those skills, but I've seen some who quite possibly do, but who have been very modest in their appraisal of their own work and probably wouldn't put themselves anywhere near the level they actually work at.

Edited August 24, 2018 by brack

[t-b-g]

From my experience of the people running things at Pendon, offers of assistance are welcomed with open arms. OK, there is a bit of a test to pass if you want to make models for the Vale scene (you make an outside toilet as I recall) but that's not unreasonable. One of the successes of the scene is that all the models sit harmoniously within it despite being built by different people at different times. This means you have to work to Pendon standards and styles, not your own. 

 

No, the howls I would expect would be from those too busy/important to actually sully themselves in helping out because they need to be in the interweb all day. 

 

Of course, it might be less of a problem than I imagine. You don't develop those skills at a computer, you earn them doing stuff on the workbench, so you probably aren't listening...

 

That is an astonishingly insulting post from somebody who should know better. Some people manage to have two interests, maybe even more. A bit of time at the keyboard makes a nice change from being at the workbench. If you don't see how many highly skilled modellers contribute to RMWeb, then you are not looking at it properly.

Edited August 24, 2018 by t-b-g

['CHARD]

I confess to complete bafflement at this topic now.

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Good job "The Vale" wasn't "The Fell", otherwise a certain diesel-mechanical loco might appear.

 

Anyway, back to the serious stuff: I've a bathroom to re-floor.....

[Clive Mortimore]

I confess to complete bafflement at this topic now.

Hi 'Chard

 

Let me try and help. I will start with the things that are easy to understand.

 

There will be a weekend where there will be four diesels running in a 1930s setting.

 

Peter nearly went once.

 

Apart form that I too am totally baffled by this topic, so there is a very good chance I will not be joining the queue.

[The Stationmaster]

Is it still possible to get motors of the right size/type/fitting for Guy Williams' locos?

 

It wouldn't be the first time motors were changed for a different type in some of his models as he did exactly that himself - never forget that as well as building them he also maintained them and sometimes had to do a very extensive overhaul job.   I'm sure they will run forever provided they are properly maintained with parts, and motors, being overhauled or renewed as necessary - just as Guy Williams did.

[Stubby47]

From my experience of the people running things at Pendon, offers of assistance are welcomed with open arms. OK, there is a bit of a test to pass if you want to make models for the Vale scene (you make an outside toilet as I recall)

 

Woo-hoo !!

[woodenhead]

If we want to look at this 'Preservation' versus 'Operation' using another example then look no further than the dear old NRM.

 

Green Arrow - static

Mallard - static

 

Flying Scotsman - razor blades - but something bearing it's name that has evolved over nearly 100 years is running regularly on the main line and attracting a lot of attention.

 

The problem is that if Pendon doesn't do something different then over time it's models will first become unreliable and then become static exhibits.

 

A plan should begin now to evolve, using modern techniques to build replacements that would be equivalents in terms of modelling masterpieces but reflect current methods - so I am not saying lets see a Hornby Star or a Bachmann City but modern scratchbuilt equivalents.