Great Model Railway Challenge - Channel 5

[colin smith]

In fairness, there have been models of prototypes from most of those areas, if not all of them, in the popular mags. Model Railroader had a Brazil-based layout not all that long ago, Russia has been featured in it as well, and Scandinavian prototypes do pop up quite often in Continental Modeller. MR has also featured an outstanding Finnish layout. I don't know about North African-based layouts but I wouldn't be surprised if one hadn't appeared. So I'd say you need to read the mags a bit more if you're not aware of these subjects, as they are being covered.

 

I'm glad there are some. But they are still very much in a minority in English speaking countries and I don't understand why. I do find Continental Modeller a bit of an oasis in a sea of British outline dreariness.

 

I do like some British standard gauge. Admittedly it's always light railway or pre 1914, but I'm not completely prejudiced against the majority.

[Jeff Smith]

I think there is a compatibility problem with today's excellent standard of RTR. Many layouts don't achieve the same level of excellence in scenery and infrastructure, but it all depends what you want from your railway. This is not necessarily a new problem as I recall seeing a clockwork O gauge layout with pretty detailed rolling stock but rudimentary overscale track, no ballast or scenery except a station building or two. One of the challenges was to wind the motor to give the correct length run.....

 

Personally I like the Denny principle which is that all components of the model should be of a similar level of detail and quality.

[colin smith]

I think there is a compatibility problem with today's excellent standard of RTR. Many layouts don't achieve the same level of excellence in scenery and infrastructure, but it all depends what you want from your railway. This is not necessarily a new problem as I recall seeing a clockwork O gauge layout with pretty detailed rolling stock but rudimentary overscale track, no ballast or scenery except a station building or two. One of the challenges was to wind the motor to give the correct length run.....

 

Personally I like the Denny principle which is that all components of the model should be of a similar level of detail and quality.

 

That is true. In part it's down to the priority of the modeller. I remember seeing a nice looking layout in RM decades ago that was ruined by a green-painted pine cone that was supposed to be a tree. I could only assume the owner had no interest in trees or in making trees look right. For him I suspect it was like the theatre with trains as the actors and the scenery just cardboard cut-outs. 

[Legend]

Actually id like to see something more mainstream. As I said before HSTs at high speed or a working container crane.How about a train ferry? Surely these are entertaining enough without having to resort to Dinosaurs, Flying Saucers and Dr Who. If you look at families in model railway exhibitions they do tend to cluster on big continuous run layouts with lots of action and features such as working road vehicles like the Faller system. Let’s have some model buses then. I can’t believe all these families are already converts , so if appeals to them why would it not appeal to the general TV viewing public? Aren’t we leading them down a garden path if they all think we are modelling a combination of The land that time forgot and Blake’s 7. While accepting we must have broad appeal surely there’s enough within existing Model Railways to get the interest of the general public.

[colin smith]

That said, many of the layouts we see sent into magazines for the "readers layouts" section aren't that much better than the models produced in GMRC. There are a lot of people who would get a terrific amount of pleasure building something like the models on TV themselves - and good for them. Better that then never make anything but always living under the impression that when you do it will blow Pendon away with its quality, and then criticise others on the basis of what you will "one day" do.

 

That is true. 

 

There's a comparison with writing where some 'writers' never have their work read and critiqued. They write purely for pleasure but unfortunately--and I speak from experience--the work is often poor. Those who choose to write for an audience (however niche) and who seek to improve actually get greater satisfaction from writing. Then there are those who are 'writers' but don't actually write because they're waiting for inspiration.

 

If I ever get back into modelling I won't beat Pendon or rival the Gravetts, but I'll do my level best to make something distinctive. Choosing a prototype will be hard though, what with competing attraction to French tramways, Mediterranean islands, and Chilean nitrate haulers.

 

I'd have to resist my temptation to take on more than I can achieve and build small. Something like Steve Cook's Dungeness Sidings should inspire me. This shows the entire 'layout' and it's stunning work.

[sharris]

I think the idea that more time would mean better results is common to all the challenge style shows. Bakeoff is particularly strong on this with contestants complaining about short deadlines. 

 

To some extent the comparison with Bakeoff is a little strained - with Bakeoff, while the time constraints are tight to push the competitors, a more relaxed bake might be 20-50% longer than the competition time. A quality model railway may take in excess of 10000% of the competition time.

 

The challenge of teams competing to build something to a brief which must include a theme and a set of animations over a couple of days actually puts me more in mind of some of the Apprentice challenges more than Bakeoff. As with The Apprentice the challenges have a slightly Off-the-wall feel to them to take the competitors out of their comfort zone - I suspect anything that we would consider traditional railway modelling, no matter how well executed, will be marked down as being too 'safe'.

[Zomboid]

Actually id like to see something more mainstream. As I said before HSTs at high speed or a working container crane.How about a train ferry? Surely these are entertaining enough without having to resort to Dinosaurs, Flying Saucers and Dr Who. If you look at families in model railway exhibitions they do tend to cluster on big continuous run layouts with lots of action and features such as working road vehicles like the Faller system. Let’s have some model buses then. I can’t believe all these families are already converts , so if appeals to them why would it not appeal to the general TV viewing public? Aren’t we leading them down a garden path if they all think we are modelling a combination of The land that time forgot and Blake’s 7. While accepting we must have broad appeal surely there’s enough within existing Model Railways to get the interest of the general public.

If you look at the layouts which actually won, the two WW1 themed layouts were pretty & mainstream conventional in most ways (especially the one from heat 1), and even the globetrotting Santa wasn't that far from the mainstream, though it was more creative than most traditional layouts.

[gwrrob]

 

I'd have to resist my temptation to take on more than I can achieve and build small. Something like Steve Cook's Dungeness Sidings should inspire me. This shows the entire 'layout' and it's stunning work.

 

Off topic I know but the weathering on that woodwork is sublime.

[Coryton]

Actually id like to see something more mainstream. As I said before HSTs at high speed or a working container crane.How about a train ferry? Surely these are entertaining enough without having to resort to Dinosaurs, Flying Saucers and Dr Who. If you look at families in model railway exhibitions they do tend to cluster on big continuous run layouts with lots of action and features such as working road vehicles like the Faller system. Let’s have some model buses then. I can’t believe all these families are already converts , so if appeals to them why would it not appeal to the general TV viewing public? Aren’t we leading them down a garden path if they all think we are modelling a combination of The land that time forgot and Blake’s 7. While accepting we must have broad appeal surely there’s enough within existing Model Railways to get the interest of the general public.

 

We've already had two running model buses on the programme, and it looks as if there are some more imaginative uses of the Faller system yet to come.

[Dunsignalling]

That is true. 

 

There's a comparison with writing where some 'writers' never have their work read and critiqued. They write purely for pleasure but unfortunately--and I speak from experience--the work is often poor. Those who choose to write for an audience (however niche) and who seek to improve actually get greater satisfaction from writing. Then there are those who are 'writers' but don't actually write because they're waiting for inspiration.

 

If I ever get back into modelling I won't beat Pendon or rival the Gravetts, but I'll do my level best to make something distinctive. Choosing a prototype will be hard though, what with competing attraction to French tramways, Mediterranean islands, and Chilean nitrate haulers.

 

I'd have to resist my temptation to take on more than I can achieve and build small. Something like Steve Cook's Dungeness Sidings should inspire me. This shows the entire 'layout' and it's stunning work.

Beautifully done, but it's not a layout by any stretch, it's a diorama.

 

John

[Jeff Smith]

Picking up on the writing topic for a moment, according to a programme on Public TV over here, Frank Herbert's 'Dune' was initially rejected by 20+ publishers.....perseverance is everything!

[Coryton]

Picking up on the writing topic for a moment, according to a programme on Public TV over here, Frank Herbert's 'Dune' was initially rejected by 20+ publishers.....perseverance is everything!

 

I believe it took JK Rowling a few goes to find a publisher for Harry Potter.

 

Harry Potter would have been an obvious choice for a film-based layout, but presumably would have required a significant sum of money for the rights. 

[Robin2]

Beautifully done, but it's not a layout by any stretch, it's a diorama.

 

I agree it's beautiful. But is the enjoyment when it is finished any different from that of a painting in oils or acrylics? And a painting takes up less space.

 

What I like about model railways is that you can play with them - they move. Trains can go from place to place.

 

...R

[Coryton]

What I like about model railways is that you can play with them - they move. Trains can go from place to place.

 

 

Indeed. And even when they aren't moving, the scene changes depending on where I last left things.

 

I also like the fact that they have to be made to work - as well as the artistic side there is (in some sense) the engineering aspect.

[Dunsignalling]

I'm glad there are some. But they are still very much in a minority in English speaking countries and I don't understand why. I do find Continental Modeller a bit of an oasis in a sea of British outline dreariness.

 

I do like some British standard gauge. Admittedly it's always light railway or pre 1914, but I'm not completely prejudiced against the majority.

TBH, with a few notable exceptions (the utterly brilliant Pempoul and several layouts from the Netherlands) I generally find most Continental European layouts served up at UK exhibitions rather too "chocolate box" for my taste.

 

That's particularly so in HO and N, with (still) a common tendency to present collections of as-bought r-t-r just running round and round through over-coiffured scenery. Just a bit too "perfect" and often smacking of a manufacturer's demonstration display. British outline layouts aren't immune but there's enough more convincingly presented stuff around to ensure the shiny-shiny brigade don't get too many invites.

 

US outline modellers are somewhat less afraid of presenting things "warts-and-all", though.

 

John

[kathymillatt]

I thought I would shed some light on why all the layouts are OO.

 

It was originally envisaged by the production company that the heat layouts would join up in the final to one long layout hence they needed to be the same gauge. It became obvious to them that this would require a lot of ripping up of work and no one had the heart to do that. That means the requirement for them all to be the same scale wasn’t needed but the teams had already started planning by then so it was too late to change.

 

Kathy

[Ravenser]

Having now seen Ep 3:

 

One striking point is that two of the three layouts were fantasy theatrical operating displays rather than conventional model railways. You wouldn't get a lot of conventional operation out of either .

 

But - the blue team's layout didn't really stick to the rule of 10'x5', whatever its merits, and therefore should have been marked down , especially as Team Steampunk had been refused permission to do that and then stuck within the constraint. They produced a more or less conventional Southern seaside branch terminus and any connection to the theme was at best pretty oblique. And the result was the least operationally reliable

 

There wasn't a lot in it between the other two. The flat table design of Team Steampunk was a minus for me, and although I see the concept of the different time zones, treating them as adjacent flat strips (and very narrow ones at that)  meant that in practice the transition between them was a mental issue. I can see why they might have preferred to arrange things in a long line. The foam ballast is something I wouldn't touch with a bargepole, but in the context of a deliberately non-realist layout built under time pressure it was a good choice, and the product will have been shown on TV to exactly the people who might use it.

 

The Bodgers made very effective transitions between their scenes - I liked the Spinx tunnel and the adjacent - and well executed rock-face - the perspective OO and N trains - two of them - worked well, the scenes were large enough to self-contain, and included some good touches - first serious use of the Peco cricket match items I've seem

 

I think the Bodgers justly edged the scratchbuild challenge (the bouncy castle was neat and I liked the obelisk) , but two teams performed to a very high standard there, and in any other heat either would have been the worthy winner

 

As far as the animations are concerned -  this might have something for the wider hobby to reflect on. I - and I suspect others - am weary and frustrated at the endless chant of "Little Johnny wants to see the trains run!" directed at exhibition layouts. The animations in this series so far have been ingenious , very varied and entertaining - well beyond the cliches of Germanic buildings on fire. It strikes me that if ingenious appropriate-to-theme animations started to appear on some exhibition layouts it would keep Little Johnny - and others - amused without having to emulate the operating practices and service intensity of the Hornby tinplate layout.... 

[Ravenser]

I thought I would shed some light on why all the layouts are OO.

 

It was originally envisaged by the production company that the heat layouts would join up in the final to one long layout hence they needed to be the same gauge. It became obvious to them that this would require a lot of ripping up of work and no one had the heart to do that. That means the requirement for them all to be the same scale wasn’t needed but the teams had already started planning by then so it was too late to change.

 

Kathy

 

Still, we got to see a WW1 standard to narrow gauge interchange : perfectly authentic and the first time I've seen that done, even if modelling WWI military railways is a pretty small niche at any time (and a nice showcase for the lovely Bachmann Baldwins)

 

And the "perspective N" from the Basingstoke Bodgers at least offered a glimpse of N

[phil-b259]

Given that they are one of the sponsors, I don't see why.

 

 

Indeed, I'm surprised that the sponsors aren't more heavily promoted during the show.

 

 

Probably rules around product placement meaning extra hoops for the broadcaster to jump through.

 

See here:-

 

https://www.ofcom.org.uk/tv-radio-and-on-demand/advice-for-consumers/television/product-placement-on-tv

https://www.ofcom.org.uk/tv-radio-and-on-demand/broadcast-codes/broadcast-code/section-nine-commercial-references-tv

https://www.ofcom.org.uk/tv-radio-and-on-demand/broadcast-codes/broadcast-code

[Coryton]

 

 

But - the blue team's layout didn't really stick to the rule of 10'x5', whatever its merits, and therefore should have been marked down , especially as Team Steampunk had been refused permission to do that and then stuck within the constraint. They produced a more or less conventional Southern seaside branch terminus and any connection to the theme was at best pretty oblique. And the result was the least operationally reliable

 

 

I think this was a difficult topic. Given that what was available from the sponsors was UK outline rolling stock (and contestants probably wouldn't have their own non-UK stock to run), then the options seem to either be a fantasy layout or one set in the UK.

 

And presumably all three layouts were proposed to the TV company and approved beforehand.

[Coryton]

See here:-

 

https://www.ofcom.org.uk/tv-radio-and-on-demand/advice-for-consumers/television/product-placement-on-tv

https://www.ofcom.org.uk/tv-radio-and-on-demand/broadcast-codes/broadcast-code/section-nine-commercial-references-tv

https://www.ofcom.org.uk/tv-radio-and-on-demand/broadcast-codes/broadcast-code

 

Interesting.

 

I hadn't realised that things were so regulated on commercial television.

 

News to me that there is a special "product placement" logo. But I don't watch much television.

[colin smith]

Beautifully done, but it's not a layout by any stretch, it's a diorama.

 

John

 

It's railway modelling. I'm not that interested in operation.

[colin smith]

I agree it's beautiful. But is the enjoyment when it is finished any different from that of a painting in oils or acrylics? And a painting takes up less space.

 

What I like about model railways is that you can play with them - they move. Trains can go from place to place.

 

...R

 

The enjoyment is in the doing and it requires a far greater range of skills than painting. For me, the modelling IS the playing. Operation is rather dull.

[colin smith]

TBH, with a few notable exceptions (the utterly brilliant Pempoul and several layouts from the Netherlands) I generally find most Continental European layouts served up at UK exhibitions rather too "chocolate box" for my taste.

 

That's particularly so in HO and N, with (still) a common tendency to present collections of as-bought r-t-r just running round and round through over-coiffured scenery. Just a bit too "perfect" and often smacking of a manufacturer's demonstration display. British outline layouts aren't immune but there's enough more convincingly presented stuff around to ensure the shiny-shiny brigade don't get too many invites.

 

US outline modellers are somewhat less afraid of presenting things "warts-and-all", though.

 

John

 

I agree about the chocolate box problem. Too many shiny Fleischmann locos.  Also agree that Pempoul is brilliant. 

 

Actually, Gordon and Maggie Gravett told me that Pempoul exists precisely because of the average British modeller's parochialism. They had taken their previous layout which (I think) was either in EM or O and British outline to an exhibition and were placed next to a nicely modelled narrow gauge layout. After a bit they noticed that they were drawing all the crowd and the NG layout was being ignored. So rather than appease the 'must be British std gauge'  brigade they thought: Right, let's give them French NG in a scale no one's heard of but modelled to such a high standard they have to pay attention.

[Signalist]

Bachmann certainly do make stock in Fn3 and 1:22.5. Track is an issue I admit. 

 

But this is all part of my point. If this show wants to showcase model railwaying then you don't have pointless (pun intended) restrictions on what can  be modelled in terms of fixed scales, fixed geography*, and fixed baseboard sizes. That means binning the silly rules and themes and widening the range of sponsors to include at least one major retailer and maybe Peco so you have a decent range of track.  

 

*In the sense we've only seen British outline or Sci-Fi.

 

 

 

Gaugemaster supplied a 4-track DC controller should you need one and were a sponsor (but only a limited part of their offering was available) and the track and static grass had to come from Peco for which there was adequate budget, and I don't think there was any shortage of track or track components.

 

Teams were expected to supply their own stock and were not expected to buy it from the Hornby and Bachmann budgets.