James May's Big Trouble in Model Britain. - Hornby's decline and struggle to survive.

[rockershovel]

On 26/02/2019 at 12:20, Legend said:

I love Hornby, actually it was Tri-ang when I got my first Trainset , so Hornby Dublo purists would probably argue its not Hornby at all!  However I think most people would say todays Hornby owes more to its Tri-ang legacy than Hornby Dublo. Of course its moved on from producing toys to producing scale models for the discerning enthusiast. I suspect that will be all the more obvious if you compare a 2019 announced Princess with the 1951 one, or even my 1971 Princess Elizabeth!   Opening these red boxes was always a thrill .We remember our first trainset , so that's why most of us are very fond of the brand , more than maybe Bachmann , who are relatively recent (30 years!) but there must be few who remember opening their first Bachmann trainset , by comparison. That's why Hornby is iconic and cherished and why this program will have been made, because even if you are not into model railways , people of a certain age will know the name Hornby.

 

I love model trains but I'm also interested in the business that surrounds them . So actually I am interested in the politics and economics too . The reasons for moving production to China I think are well known to most of us . More detail , lower cost (at least to the manufacturer), but was it envisaged that essentially by becoming a commissioner and subcontracting all manufacturing out that actually somebody else could pretty much do the same and you become a "me too" operation?  What about putting all the eggs in the Sanda Kan basket , did someone think there was a risk there? Did they at any time consider setting up their own manufacturing in China? How easy or difficult was it to go out and source alternative producers , what happened to the tooling , did they have to retool existing models to get them back into production?  What was envisaged when they took over Lima , Rivarossi, Arnold, Electronen . More closer to home , how did "Design Clever" emerge , what was the impetus behind that? Is there resistance to constantly increasing prices , was this what resulted in "Design Clever"?Who decided to announce it ? How are Airfix, Scalextric and Corgi performing .  How do they intend reacting to new producers popping up, shop commissions , shops now manufacturing themselves? Really there's lots of fascinating stuff.  Wouldn't you love to be a fly on the wall at all these meetings?  I'm hoping that to some extent these factors will emerge in this program  .Hornbys troubles didn't just start 5 years ago, they were a long time coming and , of course , the demise of the High Street and rise of the internet just accentuate the difficulties.  

 

I really hope the program looks into these issues . Clearly there is  commercial confidentiality but I hope its more than just a superficial nostalgia trip , even though that in itself will be enjoyable, it could be so much more

 

Didn't Hornby feature in the Money Program sometime back- probably 20 years ago!

 

Incidentally about 15 years back Axiom video produced a series of three films on Hornby Dublo,  Tri-ang Railways and Triang-Hornby . I have the 3 DVD set, but I believe these are now available on YouTube , just in case anyone is interested. They contain interviews with Richard Lines , Simon Kohler, Pat Hammond , Michael Foster . Very enjoyable . Now that is a nostalgia trip although documenting the issues faced then.

 

I don’t know that “those now retired, grew up with steam”. Steam ended in the U.K. fifty years ago, but it was gone from much of the country at least five years before that, and on the way out almost as soon as the Standard classes started appearing. I think you’d need to be in your mid-seventies at least, to have any real recollection of revenue earning steam traction in the U.K., and older than that in the US or some other parts of the world. 

 

My lifelong affection for standsrd and metre gauge railways in desert settings derives from my time in North Africa; but that was a diesel railway. The Colorado narrow gauge was already in preservation when I first saw it. The Welsh narrow gauge was in preservation before I was born. My first sight of U.K. steam was at the Bluebell line, although I can (just about) remember being taken to Kings X to see the last gasps of steam on the ECML. 

[caradoc]

I agree with rockershovel; I am retired but (unfortunately perhaps) did not grow up with steam. Being born in 1959 my rail enthusiast memories are really from 1971 onwards, (therefore my favourite period), so mainly blue (and green with full yellow ends) diesels with pre-TOPS numbers. Hornby do not produce a great deal suitable for that era, whereas other manufacturers do, therefore my purchases from Hornby are limited, not by desire or finance, but availability. I do still wish them every success however and look forward to the programme.

[JSpencer]

12 hours ago, The Johnster said:

 

It might be a little simplistic to equate detail increased detail with increased production costs; Hornby Dublo could not get production costs down with a range that included tinplate sided coaches with printed detail and some some very crude and simple bodies, and went under as a result.  By and large, the more complex a product is the more it will cost to produce, but older mouldings of less complex items may well not be as cost efficient as current ones which are designed to be used in modern processes.  

 

It would be difficult to get the actual figures and nobody's going to bother as the matter is academic, but it is possible that, when costs are rounded out for inflation over the years, the current Princess Elizabeth  might not be all that more costly to produce than the Rovex one.  Another interesting figure would be the percentage of the retail price represented by the production cost; I bet this was higher for the Rovex model!

 

I don't think it is the cost of development and production itself. These - being mostly outsourced - will be well known. Production costs can increase, but if the margins remain the same and you sell £2 million worth, the profit etc does not change.

 

I still think the overheads are high. Storage costs especially so! And they need to grapple this black hole where money disappears down it, quickly.

 

While cost can impact sales, choice of product can too. Much of the 2019 program I thought was very good. However we will soon be able to go into any model shop and have a choice of 3 different makes of class 66, and amongst them, at least 50 different options to choose between them (livery, numbers, DCC options etc).

 

I can just see it now.

Shop staff: Good Morning sir.

Buyer: Good Morning

Shop: How can I help?

Buyer: I have come in to buy a loco.

Shop: great sir, and we have an excellent range of class 66s to choose from sir

Buyer: no, they are bit modern for me, I don't like anything from the 21st century

Shop: no problem sir, the first of these locos appeared in the 1990s, you have 15 to choose from sir

Buyer: Well, I'm more a 1980s fan myself

Shop: May I recommend the GBRF BR large logo blue, excellent choice in price too, with Hornby less than £100, Bachmann £125 and Hattons £150...

Buyer: but that loco was not repainted as such until recently.... people would say it would look wrong on my layout...

Shop: Rule number 1 sir, Rule number 1.......

 

 

Edited March 1, 2019 by JSpencer

[adb968008]

FWIW I completely dismantled a new Hornby mk1, down to every piece..

 

i reassembled it, and boxed it in under 90 seconds with no tools.

 

to do the same with the old Hornby mk1 required a rivet gun with two different sizes of rivets, screw driver and potentially a jig to keep all the body sides in place.

 

The only thing I could say to improve Hornbys new Railroad mk1 would be to make it more kid friendly, instead of having the frame separate from the body, invert it, make the frame part of the body, and have the roof removable, with mini-neo magnets to hold it, so kids can put passengers in.

 

But as far as mechanisation / labour goes... they’ve cut down assembly time massively on the coach and is a great example on why older toolings can cost more even to use if their development costs have been financially accounted for.

Edited March 1, 2019 by adb968008

[Legend]

1 hour ago, JSpencer said:

 

I don't think it is the cost of development and production itself. These - being mostly outsourced - will be well known. Production costs can increase, but if the margins remain the same and you sell £2 million worth, the profit etc does not change.

 

I still think the overheads are high. Storage costs especially so! And they need to grapple this black hole where money disappears down it, quickly.

 

While cost can impact sales, choice of product can too. Much of the 2019 program I thought was very good. However we will soon be able to go into any model shop and have a choice of 3 different makes of class 66, and amongst them, at least 50 different options to choose between them (livery, numbers, DCC options etc).

 

I can just see it now.

Shop staff: Good Morning sir.

Buyer: Good Morning

Shop: How can I help?

Buyer: I have come in to buy a loco.

Shop: great sir, and we have an excellent range of class 66s to choose from sir

Buyer: no, they are bit modern for me, I don't like anything from the 21st century

Shop: no problem sir, the first of these locos appeared in the 1990s, you have 15 to choose from sir

Buyer: Well, I'm more a 1980s fan myself

Shop: May I recommend the GBRF BR large logo blue, excellent choice in price too, with Hornby less than £100, Bachmann £125 and Hattons £150...

Buyer: but that loco was not repainted as such until recently.... people would say it would look wrong on my layout...

Shop: Rule number 1 sir, Rule number 1.......

 

 

 

Yes got to agree on overheads still being high . I'm wondering if the storage distribution contract was entered when they envisaged much larger direct sales , the policy since having been reversed . One of the things I'm hoping will be addressed by the program is the Direct sales versus Traditional Modelshop conundrum.

 

Whilst its peoples livelihoods and you need to be sensitive to this , the quote elsewhere of 125 people moving back to Margate seems to be rather a large number for a company this size. I mean this is a company that doesn't make anything, manufacturing is sub contracted out.  Appreciating that there is Airfix, Corgi and the European brands to manage that still seems quite high, especially given that distribution remains at Sandwich.  It really is fascinating stuff. I hope we might get a better insight , but somehow doubt it as lots of it will be commercially sensitive .

Edited March 1, 2019 by Legend

[The Stationmaster]

2 hours ago, rockershovel said:

 

I don’t know that “those now retired, grew up with steam”. Steam ended in the U.K. fifty years ago, but it was gone from much of the country at least five years before that, and on the way out almost as soon as the Standard classes started appearing. I think you’d need to be in your mid-seventies at least, to have any real recollection of revenue earning steam traction in the U.K., and older than that in the US or some other parts of the world. 

 

My lifelong affection for standsrd and metre gauge railways in desert settings derives from my time in North Africa; but that was a diesel railway. The Colorado narrow gauge was already in preservation when I first saw it. The Welsh narrow gauge was in preservation before I was born. My first sight of U.K. steam was at the Bluebell line, although I can (just about) remember being taken to Kings X to see the last gasps of steam on the ECML. 

Somewhat off topic, sorry.  You wouldn't need to be in your mid '70s to remember British mainline steam although you'd might need to be about 70.  I timed a Black Five on a service train at 90mph in 1967 ('The Lakes Express' - still steam hauled in the Up direction for the northern part of its working) and reportedly steam was hitting 3 figure speeds in its last few months on the south western in that year.  Yes the vast amount had gone by then but the railway I joined in 1966 probably still had a fleet of steam engines running to nearly four figures in its last three strongholds (my bit had been 100% diesel for several years by then).

 

So impressionable teenage years in the mid 1960s would still see a reasonable amount of steam especially if you looked for it so possibly somebody born in 1952 would know a bit about and have experienced steam haulage on the everyday railway - and they'll be 69 this year.  Undoubtedly all who remember mainline steam to any extent at all will now be pensioners but we're definitely not all in our 'mid '70s'.

 

But coming back to Hornby does that make a market?  I bet for the vast majority of today's children their first railway experience is more likely to involve steam traction than any other form.  They might possibly reach a preserved/leisure type railway by electric train but I suspect the steam engine and Mk 1 coaches on their destination railway will create a far greater impression.  for those in between these generations things will probably be different - exactly as illustrated by Caradoc.  Now - who has the spending power?  Probably those who've cleared their mortgage and also who will make the demands at Christmas (answer to that will, I think, be the myriad fans of Harry Potter) - looks like Hornby mighjt be hitting a couple of good market areas this year, and we haven't even looked at Scalextric or Airfix.

[adb968008]

Since the 1960’s air travel has become common place.

indeed some fly more than they take trains.

In 2018 it is still possible to working steam on the Mainline that isn’t preservedin the world... just about..

Edited March 1, 2019 by adb968008

[dibber25]

3 hours ago, rockershovel said:

 

I don’t know that “those now retired, grew up with steam”. Steam ended in the U.K. fifty years ago, but it was gone from much of the country at least five years before that, and on the way out almost as soon as the Standard classes started appearing. I think you’d need to be in your mid-seventies at least, to have any real recollection of revenue earning steam traction in the U.K., and older than that in the US or some other parts of the world. 

 

My lifelong affection for standsrd and metre gauge railways in desert settings derives from my time in North Africa; but that was a diesel railway. The Colorado narrow gauge was already in preservation when I first saw it. The Welsh narrow gauge was in preservation before I was born. My first sight of U.K. steam was at the Bluebell line, although I can (just about) remember being taken to Kings X to see the last gasps of steam on the ECML. 

 I suppose, at 72, I'm one of the generation that grew up with steam, especially as I lived beside a railway line where pre-Grouping steam could be seen until 1962 and post-Grouping/BR standard steam until 1967. However, growing up with it and being old enough to take a real interest are two different things. At the end of 1962, when all the older SR steam was withdrawn, I had just passed my 14th birthday. AND, I was taking much more of an interest in new diesels than old steam. New diesels meant WR hydraulics, railcars and DMUs. They, with the last of WR and SR steam were what set my interest and that is where my modelling interest remains. Though I took an interest in all the new developments and continue to do so as part of my job, on a personal level, the changes that came with Rail blue closed the period that I would be interested in modelling. But that doesn't mean I don't buy models of newer trains that I like. (I have, for instance, a ScotRail Class 68 and have just acquired a Hornby 153 in GWR green - but I can't wait for my Kernow D600 Warship to arrive!). (CJL)

Edited March 1, 2019 by dibber25

[The Evil Bus Driver]

On 25/02/2019 at 09:02, Pete the Elaner said:

 or Gauge 3 live steam.

 

 

I'm sure someone will manage to do a boxfile...

[The Evil Bus Driver]

Perhaps "Big Trouble in Lyddle End" would be a more Hornby-centric title

[Gordon Connell]

2 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

I bet for the vast majority of today's children their first railway experience is more likely to involve steam traction than any other form.  They might possibly reach a preserved/leisure type railway by electric train but I suspect the steam engine and Mk 1 coaches on their destination railway will create a far greater impression. 

 

This may well be true and goodness knows you shouldn't extrapolate from one personal experience but...

 

My son fell in love with the Pendolino at an early age and his excitement the first time he got on one far surpassed that of any visit to a preserved railway. His favourite model of mine is the Pendolino as well. In spite of my efforts to re-educate him. 

[The Johnster]

1 hour ago, The Evil Bus Driver said:

I'm sure someone will manage to do a boxfile...

And display it in the cab...

[rockershovel]

There’s a whole field of study waiting to be explored... dieselisation took place at a time when everything was changing, mass air travel and mass car ownership were hitting their stride, the first motorways were being built. ...

I have to say also that diesels, for me, were synonymous with unreliable trains of ageing, sometimes near-life-expired LHCS, and it instilled in me a distaste for travel on the diesel railway which abides to this day. The same goes for memories of crowded, uncomfortable travel on SR electrics, and the abominable early electrification if the ECML South of Peterborough. 

 

It took the ground-breaking HST to rekindle my enthusiasm. I still enjoy travelling long-distance by HST, whether electric or diesel, despite recent acquaintance with XC... but do I want models of them? Actually, no. I would pay a good price for a display cabinet model of an HST, but that’s all.

 

 

 

 

[The Johnster]

2 hours ago, adb968008 said:

FWIW I completely dismantled a new Hornby mk1, down to every piece..

 

i reassembled it, and boxed it in under 90 seconds with no tools.

 

to do the same with the old Hornby mk1 required a rivet gun with two different sizes of rivets, screw driver and potentially a jig to keep all the body sides in place.

 

The only thing I could say to improve Hornbys new Railroad mk1 would be to make it more kid friendly, instead of having the frame separate from the body, invert it, make the frame part of the body, and have the roof removable, with mini-neo magnets to hold it, so kids can put passengers in.

 

But as far as mechanisation / labour goes... they’ve cut down assembly time massively on the coach and is a great example on why older toolings can cost more even to use if their development costs have been financially accounted for.

This is pretty much the point I was making, adb; the thing must be surely cheaper and easier to produce than the old mk1, other things being equal (of course recognising that they never are!).

 

Preaching to the choir regarding removable roofs, which I would argue would be an advantage with locomotive cabs as well, but I'm told it's cheaper to injection mould plastic bodyshells as 5 sided with roof, sides, and ends in one piece.

 

By the way, if you can strip and reassemble a Hornby mk1 in under 90 seconds, what's your time with an AK47...

 

[adb968008]

15 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

This is pretty much the point I was making, adb; the thing must be surely cheaper and easier to produce than the old mk1, other things being equal (of course recognising that they never are!).

 

Preaching to the choir regarding removable roofs, which I would argue would be an advantage with locomotive cabs as well, but I'm told it's cheaper to injection mould plastic bodyshells as 5 sided with roof, sides, and ends in one piece.

 

By the way, if you can strip and reassemble a Hornby mk1 in under 90 seconds, what's your time with an AK47...

 

I’m not sure what the difference is between moulding on a chassis and separating the roof, instead of moulding on the roof and separating the chassis.

 

the only guess I could proffer is using the same chassis with multiple different bodies, as an economy of scale / reusability, something we are occasionally told doesn’t happen.

 

I don’t know about an AK47 but I’ve done a Lima 47 in 5 minutes, inc soldering.

Edited March 1, 2019 by adb968008

[The Johnster]

You are definitely a quicker worker than I am, mate!  If I've got to do any soldering I put a day aside for it!

 

Hornby possibly remember their first Rovex coaches, which had single piece body/chassis mouldings to which the bogies were riveted and separate roofs; the roofs were the weak point of this toy as they warped upwards at the ends.  But they used the same method for the next 2 generations of Triang coaches until the 'scale length' mk1s came out; these had separate sides as well but a proper underframe.  The shorty clerestories just re-introduced preserve the method, though the bogies are no longer riveted, but along with other coaches of that generation have clips that hold the roof down at the ends to stop them warping up.  Mine have been worked up to dispense with these and I have filled the clip holes; so far no upward bending has occurred, probably because the clerestory gives additional longitudinal rigidity.

[MikeParkin65]

Even by RMweb standards 5 pages on a programme none of us have seen is pretty outstanding

[Ron Ron Ron]

 

[Mike Storey]

25 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

 

 

Emotional.

 

Just to whom was that video aimed? They spent that credit a while ago. Almost all of us want to see the company survive, but what was this about?

 

Judgement reserved.

 

[Kier Hardy]

Let's hope James May isn't visiting a model railway exhibition near you..... there's the potential for bent semaphore signals and topless trees!

[barrymx5]

On 28/02/2019 at 00:36, Mike Storey said:

 

 

The Margate site is still a visual dump and unattractive to passers-by, most of whom will be heading for the QEQM Hospital, or more likely the nearby ghastly shopping centre (I have spent MANY ghastly hours there, being blown from one windswept retail avenue to another). They really have to think hard about how to make the place more visually attractive and visitor friendly externally, if they are to truly capitalise on what is inside. "Hidden Gem" may not cut it, these days.

 

 

Perhaps they should try to learn something from Peco, whose Devon site is attractive and provides an enjoyable day (ok half day if you are not a model railway fan) for many visitors. 

[Legend]

1 hour ago, barrymx5 said:

Perhaps they should try to learn something from Peco, whose Devon site is attractive and provides an enjoyable day (ok half day if you are not a model railway fan) for many visitors. 

 

Devon and Cornwall full of tourists . Not so in Margate these days I think . So Peco does have advantage of location.

[dibber25]

Stripping and re-assembling a model does not reveal very much about labour cost. SK told me (in relation to the previous Hornby 'Schools') that it is the painting and printing processes that take the time, that are labour-intensive, and that have potentially the highest failure rate, all of which is a cost.  Generally speaking, the newer the model the more of those finishing processes it's likely to have. For instance, the new GWR non-corridor coaches with at least three printing processes just on the glazing. On the one hand processes like riveting or doing up brass screws might be eliminated, saving cost, while at the same time adding elaborate and critical printing processes. (CJL)

[Robin Brasher]

Quote

 

 

[40F]

18 hours ago, MikeParkin65 said:

Even by RMweb standards 5 pages on a programme none of us have seen is pretty outstanding

 

 

You wait until AFTER the programme  you ain`t seen any thing yet. The Hornby board [RM web version] will put everything right 

Edited March 2, 2019 by 40F
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