Hornby APT (2020 tooling)

[John ks]

1 hour ago, boxbrownie said:

OK…this is all your fault…..I decided I wouldn’t touch the new APT as my old one is in perfect condition apart from the traction quality of the power car…..yes I did it, ordered the new power car, now the challenge is to paint match the new to old.

 

Oh well nothing else to do 

Looking at images of the new NDM, the body of the old & new NDM's look very similar in the way the bogies interface with the body

It may be possible to put the chassis from the new NDM into the old NDM body with little or no modification

 

I currently have 2 original APT's  2+1+2 ( the NDM has been repowered with Heljan Class 33 parts in a scratch built chassis that the body rotates around much like the new NDM)

& 2+2+5 ( One NDM has no power bogies & the second NDM has 2 power bogies (both original ringfield types))

 

Somewhere between London Airport & me is a New NDM  which would have been the second powered NDM for a 14 car set

If the rumour is true that the 7 car APT comes with 2 powered NDM'' then the guts of the extra new NDM may well end up inside an old NDM

John

[boxbrownie]

1 hour ago, Roy Langridge said:

 

You could always be brave and set yourself an even bigger challenge and paint match old to new 

Roy

Cannot afford that much paint 

[oleander]

3 hours ago, John ks said:

Looking at images of the new NDM, the body of the old & new NDM's look very similar in the way the bogies interface with the body

It may be possible to put the chassis from the new NDM into the old NDM body with little or no modification

 

I currently have 2 original APT's  2+1+2 ( the NDM has been repowered with Heljan Class 33 parts in a scratch built chassis that the body rotates around much like the new NDM)

& 2+2+5 ( One NDM has no power bogies & the second NDM has 2 power bogies (both original ringfield types))

 

Somewhere between London Airport & me is a New NDM  which would have been the second powered NDM for a 14 car set

If the rumour is true that the 7 car APT comes with 2 powered NDM'' then the guts of the extra new NDM may well end up inside an old NDM

John

I was lead to belive in the 7 car set 1 NDM was powered and the Other was dummy. This is the first time I have seen some say both NDM will be powered in the 7 car set 

[InterCity80s]

I think it's already been mentioned in the thread but I just got an e-mail from Hornby re the new APT featuring in tonight's episode of A Model World:

 

Quote

Head of development, Simon, has a challenge on his hands to push Hornby’s replica of the West Coast Main Line train, the APT to top speed. The 155-mph tilting train was scrapped after only a few years of service, but Hornby hope the 80s icon, a forerunner of today’s Pendolino, will prove popular. Researcher James, takes a visit to one of the last surviving APTs to check the colour of the model matches the train and to see its legendary tilt.

 

[scouse889]

7 minutes ago, InterCity80s said:

Researcher James, takes a visit to one of the last surviving APTs to check the colour of the model matches the train and to see its legendary tilt.

 

I hope they also show researcher James checking the dimensions of the legendary ceiling-mounted capacitors on the prototype to ensure they match those of the model!

[Ouroborus]

5 hours ago, John ks said:

Looking at images of the new NDM, the body of the old & new NDM's look very similar in the way the bogies interface with the body

It may be possible to put the chassis from the new NDM into the old NDM body with little or no modification

 

I currently have 2 original APT's  2+1+2 ( the NDM has been repowered with Heljan Class 33 parts in a scratch built chassis that the body rotates around much like the new NDM)

& 2+2+5 ( One NDM has no power bogies & the second NDM has 2 power bogies (both original ringfield types))

 

Somewhere between London Airport & me is a New NDM  which would have been the second powered NDM for a 14 car set

If the rumour is true that the 7 car APT comes with 2 powered NDM'' then the guts of the extra new NDM may well end up inside an old NDM

John

 

They are remarkably similar.  Almost as if the starting point for the new APT was the old one.  Even the way the bogies clunk across the chassis, the same sound and feeling as if something is about to drop out of it.    Looking more closely, you can pick out some differences, the roof particularly, but the body is very similar with respect to panel details. 

The new couplings are a pain in the backside.

And i've just noticed that the orange upper cantrail is missing from the new NDM.  The old one has it.  

 

See link:

 

http://www.traintesting.com/images/APT V 49004 (370006) @ Carlisle p searle.jpg

Edited November 1, 2021 by Ouroborus

[Wolf27]

26 minutes ago, Ouroborus said:

 

They are remarkably similar.  Almost as if the starting point for the new APT was the old one.  Even the way the bogies clunk across the chassis, the same sound and feeling as if something is about to drop out of it.    Looking more closely, you can pick out some differences, the roof particularly, but the body is very similar with respect to panel details. 

The new couplings are a pain in the backside.

And i've just noticed that the orange upper cantrail is missing from the new NDM.  The old one has it.  

 

See link:

 

http://www.traintesting.com/images/APT V red 49004 (370006) @ Carlisle p searle.jpg

It will look similar as the original model

was very close to correct in the main dimensions. The two power cars should be almost identical.

[rhnrhn]

3 hours ago, Ouroborus said:

 

They are remarkably similar.  Almost as if the starting point for the new APT was the old one.  Even the way the bogies clunk across the chassis, the same sound and feeling as if something is about to drop out of it.    Looking more closely, you can pick out some differences, the roof particularly, but the body is very similar with respect to panel details. 

The new couplings are a pain in the backside.

And i've just noticed that the orange upper cantrail is missing from the new NDM.  The old one has it.  

 

See link:

 

http://www.traintesting.com/images/APT V 49004 (370006) @ Carlisle p searle.jpg

Don't forget that the separate NDM is meant to go with the 370003 /370004 5 car set which is carrying the older livery (pre black windscreen band) which had a white cantrail instead of an orange one :

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/14581588@N05/8637379192/in/album-72157638159566295/

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/14581588@N05/8636272875/in/album-72157638159566295/

 

 

Edited November 1, 2021 by rhnrhn

[Mr_Tilt]

Dear, oh dear, a fundamental misunderstanding of what it's all about on the Hornby TV programme tonight. 

 

The guy with the model shop demo layout marvelling at how well his 5-car APT set went round the (extremely sharp...) bends 'It must be the tilting system that helps it go round so fast of course'

 

WRONG! The tilt system's got nothing to do with it, either on the model or the real thing!

[newbryford]

6 minutes ago, Mr_Tilt said:

Dear, oh dear, a fundamental misunderstanding of what it's all about on the Hornby TV programme tonight. 

 

The guy with the model shop demo layout marvelling at how well his 5-car APT set went round the (extremely sharp...) bends 'It must be the tilting system that helps it go round so fast of course'

 

WRONG! The tilt system's got nothing to do with it, either on the model or the real thing!

 

Kit - it's only a train set...... 

[Bigeddie]

1 hour ago, Mr_Tilt said:

Dear, oh dear, a fundamental misunderstanding of what it's all about on the Hornby TV programme tonight. 

 

The guy with the model shop demo layout marvelling at how well his 5-car APT set went round the (extremely sharp...) bends 'It must be the tilting system that helps it go round so fast of course'

 

WRONG! The tilt system's got nothing to do with it, either on the model or the real thing!

Oh well tv licence to make it up! 
 

still great to see an hours programme dedicated to the new APT model! Even if it is only on Yesterday!

[WestRail642fan]

so, if the 7 car pack does have both NDMs powered, would it be wise to have both coupled to eachother for running in or do one NDM at a time?

[PaulRhB]

22 minutes ago, WestRail642fan said:

so, if the 7 car pack does have both NDMs powered, would it be wise to have both coupled to eachother for running in or do one NDM at a time?

We’ve only got sketchy info on both being powered though, no official press release confirming it and nothing on the product page either. 

If they are, and the info is rather conflicting as on the programme they suggested one would be enough with the ‘new motor’, they should be a fairly close match so running in together shouldn’t be an issue as ultimately you want to bed them in matched. 
 

[VXDH92]

I think on balance I would rather the 7 car pack have 1 x motorised and 1 x dummy NDM, because the lack of electrical couplings means no less than 4 x decoders will be needed for a set! I'm personally not worried whether 1 x motorised NDM can pull a set - a Hornby 87 has no problem pulling a whole set of mk3s about including gradients, so I don't think it'll be a lot different. Yes, an APT has up to 14 carriages, but they are short, and the articulated bogies means less drag than 14 conventional cars. We shall see...

[lyneux]

If you are buying a 14 car set that’s around £800 of train. Why worry about a few decoder chips? At £20 each for a basic one that’s £80. Not bad compared to the price of the set (10%).

 

It’s not like you need to stick 4x Loksound v5s in it? Even if you want sound, you’d probably only have one chip in one of the NDMs and either through wire another speaker or live with the fact that the sound is emitted from approximately the right place on the train.

 

So what does it matter whether the second NDM is powered or not?

 

Guy

[Roy Langridge]

1 hour ago, VXDH92 said:

I think on balance I would rather the 7 car pack have 1 x motorised and 1 x dummy NDM, because the lack of electrical couplings means no less than 4 x decoders will be needed for a set! I'm personally not worried whether 1 x motorised NDM can pull a set - a Hornby 87 has no problem pulling a whole set of mk3s about including gradients, so I don't think it'll be a lot different. Yes, an APT has up to 14 carriages, but they are short, and the articulated bogies means less drag than 14 conventional cars. We shall see...

 

But are those Mk.3 lit? The APT coaches are lit, and that is a significant amount of additional drag.

Roy

Edited November 2, 2021 by Roy Langridge

[Wolf27]

I did email the Hornby Technical advice people and the reply was that the 7 car pack has one powered NDM and should be sufficient to power a full set.  As my layout has a number of gradients I have opted to by a 2nd powered NDM as insurance, but that is my choice

[Mr_Tilt]

13 minutes ago, Roy Langridge said:

 

But are those Mk.3 lit? The APT coaches are and that is a significant amount of additional drag.

 

 

The APT coaches are what........?

[Roy Langridge]

17 minutes ago, Mr_Tilt said:

 

The APT coaches are what........?

 

Lit, and somewhat like a Christmas tree (unless the track is momentarily dirty ) 

 

I thought that was obvious from my post but I have edited it.

Roy

[boxbrownie]

10 hours ago, Mr_Tilt said:

Dear, oh dear, a fundamental misunderstanding of what it's all about on the Hornby TV programme tonight. 

 

The guy with the model shop demo layout marvelling at how well his 5-car APT set went round the (extremely sharp...) bends 'It must be the tilting system that helps it go round so fast of course'

 

WRONG! The tilt system's got nothing to do with it, either on the model or the real thing!

Well at least the capacitors don’t get thrown around 

[boxbrownie]

2 hours ago, WestRail642fan said:

so, if the 7 car pack does have both NDMs powered, would it be wise to have both coupled to eachother for running in or do one NDM at a time?

If it were myself I’d run both on a circuit (no coaches) not coupled but with a big gap between them and check if either runs faster than the other first and run them in a bit like that.

[rembrow]

51 minutes ago, Wolf27 said:

I did email the Hornby Technical advice people and the reply was that the 7 car pack has one powered NDM and should be sufficient to power a full set.  As my layout has a number of gradients I have opted to by a 2nd powered NDM as insurance, but that is my choice

I received the same response from Hornby, a couple of months after the apt was announced. The reply came from one of the developers, who has since left Hornby. Interestingly he advised, when I queried why they were proposing a separate powered ndm, the one just released, he advised that this was for expansion of the 5 car pack, as they (Hornby) envisaged that those wanting a full 14 car rake would use the 5 car set as a starting point. So at some stage Hornby believed that 2 powered ndms would be required for a full rake. It is still very muddled, as if they contend that only one powered ndm is required for the long rakes, what is the purpose of R3948, the powered ndm additional unit, as this could have been changed to an unpowered unit before production.

[Pete the Elaner]

24 minutes ago, rembrow said:

I received the same response from Hornby, a couple of months after the apt was announced. The reply came from one of the developers, who has since left Hornby. Interestingly he advised, when I queried why they were proposing a separate powered ndm, the one just released, he advised that this was for expansion of the 5 car pack, as they (Hornby) envisaged that those wanting a full 14 car rake would use the 5 car set as a starting point. So at some stage Hornby believed that 2 powered ndms would be required for a full rake. It is still very muddled, as if they contend that only one powered ndm is required for the long rakes, what is the purpose of R3948, the powered ndm additional unit, as this could have been changed to an unpowered unit before production.

 

I agree, this makes no sense.

13 coaches is a lot for a OO loco to haul at a decent speed & some models will not be as free-running as others.

An APT is also something which many will want to run fast. Articulated bogies may cause less drag than 14 normal coaches, but they have wiper style electrical contacts which adds drag.

I also find it strange that they assume anyone wanting a 14 set will start with a 5 pack? The 5 pack has yellow window surrounds, so it puts the train into a different era. They also provide the extension coaches for both, allowing expansion of either.

Edited November 2, 2021 by Pete the Elaner
Corrected an error about livery, as mentioned in the posts below.

[Legend]

6 minutes ago, Pete the Elaner said:

 

I agree, this makes no sense.

13 coaches is a lot for a OO loco to haul at a decent speed & some models will not be as free-running as others.

An APT is also something which many will want to run fast. Articulated bogies may cause less drag than 14 normal coaches, but they have wiper style electrical contacts which adds drag.

I also find it strange that they assume anyone wanting a 14 set will start with a 5 pack? The 5 pack has black window surrounds, so it puts the train into a different era. They also provide the extension coaches for both, allowing expansion of either.

Doesnt the 5 pack have yellow ends and the 7 pack have the black hood ?   I thought it looked impressive on the telly last night . Was tempted but space is still the issue for me  plus its £400 of train that would be run once in a blue moon . 

[PaulRhB]

6 minutes ago, Pete the Elaner said:

find it strange that they assume anyone wanting a 14 set will start with a 5 pack? The 5 pack has black window surrounds,

 

5 car is all yellow, the 7 car has the black surrounds. 

 

 

6 minutes ago, Pete the Elaner said:

 

so it puts the train into a different era. They also provide the extension coaches for both, allowing expansion of either.

Agreed, they offer full sets for either so the 2 powered for the 5 car set vs the dummy in the 7 car is odd. Paul I responded when I asked the same that they would only know once the test sets arrived. The tv program showed the 5 car reaching a scale 160mph and the engineer saying it was a bit too fast but with a full set that will come down so it was about right.