Why is their no budget range for the younger modeller to get into this hobby?

[PatB]

It's well worth remembering that many, perhaps a majority, of the articles in the magazines of yore were written by/about modellers well into what might be termed middle age. Yes, yes, I know Cyril Freezer took over editorship of the Modeller in his mid 20s, but I've always thought of him springing into existence, fully formed, at about age 45 . Younger contributors, whilst not unknown, were not, by any means, universal. Similarly the attendance at exhibitions. A high proportion of the crowds have always been at the grey end of the age spectrum, regardless of all those (carefully posed) 1950s photos of a row of awestruck small boys gazing at some Bassett-Lowke wonder, that was at least as unattainable for them as is a 200 quid 00 pacific for their 2020 equivalent.

 

As I said, getting youngsters into model trains is a whole lot more complex than a matter of equipment availability. As we've established, those of us with some concept of inflation and historical purchasing power anyway, the hobby is at least as affordable to start in as it has ever been. Which is to say, not very, but 'twas ever thus. So let's examine other aspects.

 

Social

I'm not sure when it happened, but having at least a passing interest in things railway went from being normal and unremarkable, at least for boys, to being weird, nerdy and contemptible almost overnight. Maybe it was in the aftermath of the end of steam or summat. Maybe the increasing availability of other bits of technology made a something with a couple of wires and a motor a lot less technically fascinating than it once was. Certainly, by the time I went to secondary school in 1978 it painted a target on you.

 

Environmental

Until maybe the 1960s, the railways played a more significant role in the lives of many and, in those pre-universal car ownership times, trains were exciting. For many kids in the demographic that could afford a train set, trains meant holidays and day trips, even if, for their fathers, the train meant overcrowded commuting drudgery. And the trains that took you to excitingly different places were, in themselves exciting, hauled by gigantic, snorting beasts or, later, equally gigantic, snorting (or humming) examples of cutting edge technology. Whilst today's passenger numbers suggest that more people than ever are interacting with the railways, I'm not sure how exciting the efficient, unit-based railway of today is. It's all gone a bit domestic appliance. Efficient, useful, a pain in the proverbial when it breaks down, but not something calculated to inspire (many) people to create it in miniature.

 

Historical

Maybe this should be under environmental, but I'm running out of heading ideas and this format is going to look a bit silly with only two . Anyway, in the heyday of the train set as the premier boys toy the vast majority of entry level equipment was modern image. Manufacturers assumed (I think, correctly) that what most boys wanted was something that, at least superficially, resembled the trains they saw every day, or which took them to the seaside once a year. So steam locos got Big Four liveries after 1923, switching to BR liveries after 1948, and the changes, though not instant, took place as quickly as could reasonably be expected as stocks of the old colours ran down. And this continued into the 60s, with, eg, Triang introducing BR Blue almost as soon as it appeared on the real thing. Railway modelling, for most participants, was a modern hobby. They modelled what they saw, or wished to see, around them. Things changed with the end of steam and the onset of the grim 1970s and, apart from a few borderline eccentrics, railway modelling became a primarily historical hobby. OK, I'll accept that the bang up to date modern scene seems more popular now than it was in the 70s, but even so I suspect the majority of model railways are historical to a greater or lesser extent. I find it rather sobering to think that BR has been extinct for as long now as the Big Four had been when I first picked up a copy of RM and had some vague understanding of the contents. My point is, though, that (and I'm going to be controversial here) to create a model railway interesting enough to hold interest for the majority requires an interest, not only in railways but also in social history, and I don't think that an inherent interest in social history is (or ever was) a big part of the make up of the majority of kids.

 

Economic

Yes, here it is, but there is more to the economics of model railways than the cost of locos, stock and track. Model railways need space. Roundys need a lot of space, and, unlike model railway equipment, space is a lot more expensive than it used to be for most people. A young family, even with both parents working, are likely to be living in a shoebox, where finding space to stash a 6x4 board is difficult to impossible, and even dedicating enough temporary space for a loose-lay arrangement is difficult. At least for the very young, at least some supervision and support is needed if the venture is to be successful and enjoyable enough to encourage continuation, and with both parents working full time to pay for the inadequate space, supervision is likely to be hard to come by. Much easier to stick 'em in front of the computer/TV/game console.

 

I'm sure there are other aspects that I haven't considered, and I'm also sure that there are plenty of cases where some or all of those above have been overcome. However, if we're talking about encouraging youngsters into the hobby, I don't think it's possible to have a sensible discussion without acknowledging and/or addressing all these.

 

Another thought. I can think of several RMWebbers who I'm pretty confident are under 20 or so. Maybe asking them how the hobby could be made more young-people friendly would be a good idea, rather than all us old farts (and in this context I'd put anyone over 30 down as an old fart) telling each other that we just need to return to the 50s/60s/70s/80s/90s (delete all but your favourite decade as appropriate) and the halcyon days of a free Dublo/Hornby/Airfix/Lima wagon in every packet of cornflakes will return.

[Joseph_Pestell]

2 hours ago, kevinlms said:

Fact is the modern hobby has already gone to cheaper Asian factories to get the models made, rather than British/West European wages and conditions.

 

The only way to get models made cheaper still (not that they are necessarily SOLD cheaper - got to keep the profit margins up!), is to go to other 3rd world countries and exploit them. There is some buyer resentment on doing that sort of thing. Examples include sustainable cocoa plantations, anti-child labour rules on textiles and footwear and even fair wages!

 

All of these go against making cheaper and cheaper models available, so little Johnny can have an extra wagon in his train set for the same price!

 

Yes, up to a point.

 

It is the cheap labour available abroad that has made it possible to make super-detailed models with their hundreds of components. But if one was looking to produce simpler models for a "budget" market, one could return to much simpler assembly where the labour cost element would be less significant a factor in overall cost.

 

I think that we come back to Hornby not having firmly decided (ever since its Triang days) which market it wants to serve. Railroad has not been differentiated enough in its marketing.

 

Perhaps the ideal would be for a completely separate company to be set up and buy the Limby toolings to be the base of a new entry-level brand. As mentioned above, all that is really needed completely new is some DMUs/EMUs and they might be able to include some existing components.

 

[John Harris]

I fear that most of this thread misses the point.

 

The vast majority of under 18s have little or no interest in model railways, of course there will be exceptions, but the majority are not.  I don't think it helps that model railway, indeed modelling enthusiasts in general, have an image problem.  There also seems to a decline in 'solitary' hobbies in general, unless you can post your successes on social media (which is rarely Facebook if you are under 25).

 

It would take a very brave manufacturer to invest in a 'budget' range.

 

As an example, Hornby (under the Airfix brand) launched ranges of plastic kits based on "Doctor Who" and "Shaun the Sheep", both popular international franchises, the kits were eventually sold off in "Model Zone" for a £10 (originally around £30) and proposed kits were cancelled.  I suspect most of the new "Harry Potter" related railway sets will be sold to the Potterati or collectors, not to budding pre-teen wizards.

 

jch

Edited August 15, 2020 by John Harris

[009 micro modeller]

Since the ‘cheap plastic train set’ part of the market has been mentioned earlier in the thread, I’d like to just briefly mention my experience with this: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Funtime-3901-PL2800-Train-Tin/dp/B014ELPSB6/ref=asc_df_B014ELPSB6/?tag=googshopuk-21&linkCode=df0&hvadid=310066351121&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=14930979273023374319&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9072509&hvtargid=pla-618608444557&psc=1&th=1&psc=1

 

(This is actually a more expensive ‘gift in a tin’ version than the one I used. You also see versions in plastic and card packaging with no straight track for under £5, sometimes around £2). The loco is battery powered (1.5V - 1 AA battery) and track is entirely plastic.

 

I bought one of these several years ago. It is about 12.5mm gauge so I bashed it to represent a 15 inch gauge railway in 1:32 scale. I fitted a larger cab on the loco and repainted it, while also re-bodying the stock, initially using wood and card (there was a little bit of scrap brass to make the corner pieces on an open wagon, and the loco cab was plasticard). I built a little ‘pizza’ layout in a plastic box, using fairly conventional but relatively cheap scenic materials. I also got a second circle and laid it on a paving slab outdoors to create a mini garden railway. Latterly I have built some more stock out of plastic.

 

I can look for some photos of some of this later if anyone is interested but the point is that it was fun, creative and cheap. The system does have some limitations:

 

Gauge - close to 12mm but apparently not compatible with other 12mm stuff with regard to rail/wheel profile (I tried an old Triang TT wagon).

Control - the loco is operated by an on/off switch and only runs in one direction.

Track - the track is joined together in such a way that it is ‘handed’ so all curves must curve the same way. There are actually some points (of a sort) available but they aren’t very good. You can get extension packs of straight track though.

 

So this plastic train system is close to what I would like to see as a ‘budget model railway’ but not quite there. However, I know or have met quite a few people in my generation (born late 1990s) who like making things - crafts, models etc., as well as more specific/specialised things like wargaming. I’ve also volunteered running arts and crafts sessions for kids, and the participants generally like the crafts where the basic concept is fairly simple but there is plenty of room for customisation. So what I think could be good is this:

- A plastic railway system, similar to the one mentioned above but with better and more wide-ranging track (proper points and curves). Alternatively you could sidestep this whole issue by providing only basic track but adopting a gauge where lots of set track is already available (so not 12.5mm obviously) - it would cost more than plastic train set track but not by much.

- You could sell an RTR ‘train set’ for younger kids and beginners who just want to get something running, but what you would mainly be producing would be separate, standard chassis. The wagon/carriage chassis would be very simple, maybe a couple of different lengths and the possibility of using two short chassis to create a bogie vehicle. Loco chassis could be 4 and 6 wheeled, with and without coupling/connecting rods and with as many common components as possible. Obviously the chassis would need to run in both directions. Lots of people would probably also want radio control but given the low price of some RC toy cars this wouldn’t necessarily increase the price too much (it could be around £30-£40 and still be much cheaper than conventional model railway items). A cheap version could be manual with on/off and direction switches.

- After buying your reliable, RTR chassis, you could also buy loco and stock body kits and interchangeable parts from the same manufacturer to build onto them (this concept is seen more in other, non-railway sectors of modelling). Or if you were trying to keep costs down or be more creative you could build your own, which could be as cheap or as expensive as you liked. I suspect there would also be a market for older kids and adults wanting something a bit more bespoke/complex, served by smaller or cottage-industry manufacturers (think of the way that NG modelling and T gauge have developed for existing examples of this).

 

 I think this would work well as a mainly NG, larger scale system (maybe 1:32 on 16.5mm gauge) but of course those building their own stock bodies wouldn’t need to keep to the same scale. I don’t think somebody like Hornby would do this though, as the interchangeable chassis and body parts idea is quite different from the traditional idea of a train set.

 

I am aware of some of the issues with the above idea, and it is just an idea. However, I think it could also appeal to people outside the traditional model railway market. I also think the perceived need for models of more modern prototypes is a bit of a red herring - lots of younger modellers are inspired by railway history, heritage railways, fantasy or their imaginations and wouldn’t need these. For me, the escapist aspect of model railways is enhanced by the fact that I am not building a modern image model of my local station.

[adb968008]

5 hours ago, mdvle said:

Though I would also point out that both Sony and Microsoft are releasing the next generation of their game consoles before Christmas - want to consider how many kids will be getting the (guess of $500) new console, with the extra controller(s) and other accessories, and the several games at $70 each?

 

For some kids the money is there, they simply choose to spend it (through wish lists) on something other than trains.

The industry can't pretend basic economics don't apply.

Last night there was a documentary on a TV about Palitoy, (owners of Mainline railways, ) and how they had issues getting Star Wars and Action man to the UK marketing the 1970’s from their base in Coalville.
 

But when they did, they were selling millions of units at much higher prices (a upto a whopping £60 I saw in the TV ad) .. even in 1977 when model railways was much bigger than today spend & volume was much higher on the right toys. 

 

 

Edited August 15, 2020 by adb968008

[PatB]

The cheap(ish), large scale plastic railway system/train set has, of course, already been done, with varying degrees of success. Triang Big-Big and its Novo successor lasted about 10 years, all up. Lima 0 seemed to be around for a long time (15-20 years, surely) in its various incarnations (2-rail to start with, battery with plastic track, I believe, later). Timpo did their 32mm gauge/c10mm scale Wild West train sets in the 70s, and Bachmann have done assorted G-scale sets (not really budget, but certainly very economical for G). Not to mention Faller and Playmobil. Whilst none have really been serious models in themselves, they've all been utilised fairly extensively by serious modellers with budgetary constraints.

 

The Lego City trains from a year or two ago (don't know if they're still available) looked like a pretty good idea to me, although, again, not exactly budget. Mind you, their interoperability with stuff that many kids already have would be, I would think, a significant plus.

 

On another note, kids do like making things. MrsB has had extensive experience in doing art and craft projects with children, both through schools and at events, and they've always been immensely popular. Obviously project complication and level of support and assistance need to be pitched correctly for the children concerned and the nature of the venue, but the general impression has been queues out of the door. So I would argue that there is a desire to be creative out there, given suitable encouragement and opportunity. Thing is, with MrsB's projects, all tools, materials, venue and required help and support are provided, and everyone goes home with a tangible, successful result. It's much harder to expect kids or non-technical parents to get it all together, give it a go and maybe do a bit of disaster recovery without some hands-on help from someone who has half a clue about what they're doing.

Edited August 15, 2020 by PatB

[kevinlms]

31 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

Yes, up to a point.

 

It is the cheap labour available abroad that has made it possible to make super-detailed models with their hundreds of components. But if one was looking to produce simpler models for a "budget" market, one could return to much simpler assembly where the labour cost element would be less significant a factor in overall cost.

 

I think that we come back to Hornby not having firmly decided (ever since its Triang days) which market it wants to serve. Railroad has not been differentiated enough in its marketing.

 

Perhaps the ideal would be for a completely separate company to be set up and buy the Limby toolings to be the base of a new entry-level brand. As mentioned above, all that is really needed completely new is some DMUs/EMUs and they might be able to include some existing components.

 

Why would Hornby sell what you call the 'Limby' range to a would be competitor, just to be undermined? Makes no sense. Your Model Railway Village, shows what happens there, with people trying to flog on eBay 'Bachmann' Mk1 coaches. Funnily enough they only come in one style/colour scheme!

 

The 'cheap overseas labour' has 3 options. One is to make higher quality models with more parts - which has been repeated many times over, not just the British market.

Another is to make cheaper less detailed models, which Hornby has been doing with their 'Railroad' range. The tooling has presumably long been written off, so ought not be a major expense.

The 3rd option, which some seem to be suggesting is making models in the 'junk', category, where nothing is compatible with the standard range - except by chance.

Another poster explained the problems to a proper model railway shop, where well meaning people came in to buy additional equipment, and there is none, so a blind alley. I believe he said Jouef went down the 3 standards path. Looking at Hornby's website, it seems the high quality models, is the only one left. Now why would that be? The answer is obvious, the cheap ones need to sell a LOT, to make it worthwhile. That market doesn't exist and I can't see it coming back any time soon.

[Nearholmer]

Despite what has been said above, there is a steady small percentage of 10-20yo who pursue “tech” hobbies, things like robotics, Lego technics, at the crossover between craft and software - they are the classic recruiting cohort for university engineering courses and engineering grad training schemes, and ideally the UK would have more such kids, like Germany.

 

A few of that group do pursue model railways, notably the DCC, raspberry-pi, automation type angle, but that needs fairly well-off Parents as financial backers, or a very good ‘Saturday job’.

 

Plain old model railways used to be the “tech” hobby for this group (I know, I was that boy, trying to do it all secondhand) but a plain old DC model railway on its own is way too low-tech for their needs in the modern world.
 

Which leads me back to the conclusion that we all seem to be reaching: the reason there is no budget range of models for this age group is because the market is almost certainly too small to support one.
 

 

 

 

[adb968008]

1 hour ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

Perhaps the ideal would be for a completely separate company to be set up and buy the Limby toolings to be the base of a new entry-level brand. As mentioned above, all that is really needed completely new is some DMUs/EMUs and they might be able to include some existing components.

 

Why would they do that ?

 

Have you seen how many class 20,37,40,42,47,55,66,101,156s they’ve turned out ?
(60,67 they’ve replaced and 92 is duplicated).

 

I think Lima and Dapol acquisitions have been amongst Hornbys best moves, 2 decades ago.

 

I doubt we’re ever going to see rtr at £40-50 for something resembling a recognisable loco again soon, though with discount got, were not far from it with class 47/66’s today.

 

Though I do think the railroad range is worth investing in for modern image (i mean post y2k construction) to keep it relevent.. of the Lima toolings only 66 and 156 remains totally relevent, when they acquired them 20,31,37,47,66,101 and 156 were relevent... they’ve not moved with the times.
 

I think these are on borrowed time, there relevances to new entrants is waning, and I’d question the ROI calculations and business benefits on competing investments like the 71, Terrier, Radial, LSW brake van and mk2e/f and class 91 whilst investing in Irrelevant toolings like the Railroad B17 when no kids market exists for it, and a Dads market has its own detailed option.  Expanding beyond Hornby I don’t see the benefits of yet more 25,37,45,47,55, 158,170 toolings either).

 

it feels like manufacturers have run out of “modern” imagination, and rather than risk on a unit, they will risk losing on a duplicate.. to me both are the same risk...As a customer  I’m not buying 10 of any unit, but I’m not buying 10 of a duplicate either... most toolings of the last 30 years aren’t bad and don’t off enough value / cost upgrades.

roll back to 1987-1991.. we saw toolings for 59,60,90,91, Mk4’s, 142,150,155,156, with Eurostar,66,67 close after.

 

2018/2022 is seeing the largest transition of new rolling stock in 3 decades, GA, GWR, TP all have virtually whole new fleets yet the only game in town is the Azuma and Accurascale mk5’s... the rest is revisions of existing (which there’s nothing wrong with, but it’s not predatory business, just turnover).

Edited August 15, 2020 by adb968008

[kevinlms]

20 minutes ago, PatB said:

The cheap(ish), large scale plastic railway system/train set has, of course, already been done, with varying degrees of success. Triang Big-Big and its Novo successor lasted about 10 years, all up. Lima 0 seemed to be around for a long time (15-20 years, surely) in its various incarnations (2-rail to start with, battery with plastic track, I believe, later). Timpo did their 32mm gauge/c10mm scale Wild West train sets in the 70s, and Bachmann have done assorted G-scale sets (not really budget, but certainly very economical for G). Not to mention Faller and Playmobil. Whilst none have really been serious models in themselves, they've all been utilised fairly extensively by serious modellers with budgetary constraints.

 

The Lego City trains from a year or two ago (don't know if they're still available) looked like a pretty good idea to me, although, again, not exactly budget. Mind you, their interoperability with stuff that many kids already have would be, I would think, a significant plus.

 

On another note, kids do like making things. MrsB has had extensive experience in doing art and craft projects with children, both through schools and at events, and they've always been immensely popular. Obviously project complication and level of support and assistance need to be pitched correctly for the children concerned and the nature of the venue, but the general impression has been queues out of the door. So I would argue that there is a desire to be creative out there, given suitable encouragement and opportunity. Thing is, with MrsB's projects, all tools, materials, venue and required help and support are provided, and everyone goes home with a tangible, successful result. It's much harder to expect kids or non-technical parents to get it all together, give it a go and maybe do a bit of disaster recovery without some hands-on help from someone who has half a clue about what they're doing.

Undoubtedly there is a market for people to modify something cheap, but is it the main marketing angle - no of course not. Only a small minority would end up being purchased even as a clearance item, for such reasons.

 

Cheap sets will always be around. Some manufacturer makes a large batch and sells them off quickly. There is no intention of ever extending the range.

 

Remember the 'Rocky Mountain Express' set - I think that was its title. It come out in the late 70s, early 80s, with a preformed mountain base, an oval of track looping through the mountain, with a couple of sidings & a train.

My club ended up getting one donated, missing half of the track. That thing sat around the club for years. With one half the club members, saying that we should fix it up and sell at exhibition. Trouble was locating more points that fitted the base.

The other half said there was no commitment, to waste any money on it and to scrap it keeping any useful (if any) bits.

[ikcdab]

On 13/08/2020 at 22:01, Claycrossjunction said:

 

I am aware of Hornby Dublo history I have a fine book on the subject . The question is why can't present day manufacturers do an budget range the market it is their for taking model railways are for all ages not the wealthy few who will be gone soon the young are their future no customers no business. Why should the young have to buy second hand have you seen some of eBays crazy prices they are nearly as much has new. 

I think your question has been well answered. There has never been a budget model railway range (outside of the very cheap rubbish). Like most people, you start with birthday pressies or second hand stuff and work up. There are some bargains on ebay, but the best way is via swap meets, local clubs and exhibitions. I picked up triang coaches for £4 each last year. A bit of TLC and judicious painting has made them into presentable models. Scalescenes card kits are cheap (most less than £5) and are fantastic value and very high quality.

I think it's a mistake that the model railway will drop into your lap ready made. Modelling and creative work will be required and is very rewarding!

[CloggyDog]

12 hours ago, Claycrossjunction said:

It needs to be kid proof super detailing no not really ,lights maybe but not a must. DC is fine DCC no . So basic train set with optional trains and wagons if one wants to add to their collection.  

 

Basic loco diesel/ engine around £30/40 

Basic wagons £5/9

All in train set £45/50 

 

 

 

As has been suggested a few times already, the Märklin My World range seems to tick all those boxes.

 

It's expandable as money allows, has lots of 'play value' with lights and sound built in at that price-point, it's very robust and its available new, today.

 

The models capture the look of their prototypes, even if compromised on detail and absolute dimensional accuracy. 

[009 micro modeller]

2 hours ago, PatB said:

The cheap(ish), large scale plastic railway system/train set has, of course, already been done, with varying degrees of success.

 

But has it been done with the idea that I suggested above, with RTR chassis and other bits that people can use to create their own models, rather than fully RTR locos and stock? This is already taking place in 009 with the Kato chassis/3D printed body combination (although relying on an existing chassis rather than one made for such a purpose has its own limitations). Also, 1:32 or 0 scale on 16.5mm gauge will not take up the same space as previous large scale offerings.

 

The main reason I think this would be good is that while there are younger people who do model railways as a ‘tech’ hobby, there are also people (in all age ranges) who are very interested in railway and social history, are very creative, good at crafts and/or static plastic modelling, but are not skilled in electrical or electronic stuff; for these people the availability of a chassis, and the use of battery power (and possibly radio control) would remove the barriers to them taking part in railway modelling. Such people would have no problem with the skills of building imaginative and creative rolling stock on the RTR chassis (this is the bit they probably enjoy), and if they wanted to learn the electrical skills they could do so later. I almost fall into this category; although I do now have more technical skills than some people I probably don’t actually like wiring layouts - I prefer the creative side of the hobby. A further feature of this is that younger children would need less help or supervision if soldering was not involved in building a model railway, which actually for the purposes of this thread may be the main point.

 

Also, here are some photos of what I did, as mentioned above. The coaches are too narrow and made from wood and card. These are the ones I built as a kid about 11 years ago:

 

And the layout they ran on - if I was building this now I would improve the sleeper spacing:

 

The diesel loco (based on a Model Power body, with false side frames added to the chassis) and wider styrene-bodied coach were built more recently - this is a bit further from the original plastic train set but shows that something more realistic can be made from it once skills have been developed:

 

Edited August 15, 2020 by 009 micro modeller
Adding pictures

[Steamport Southport]

2 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Last night there was a documentary on a TV about Palitoy, (owners of Mainline railways, ) and how they had issues getting Star Wars and Action man to the UK marketing the 1970’s from their base in Coalville.
 

But when they did, they were selling millions of units at much higher prices (a upto a whopping £60 I saw in the TV ad) .. even in 1977 when model railways was much bigger than today spend & volume was much higher on the right toys. 

 

 

 

I remember it well. I take it you mean the large models of Millennium Falcon and Tie Fighters/X Wings for the figures.

 

Nobody bought them. Everyone bought the model kits instead by Revell. They were a fraction of the price and much better detailed. This was an era when kids made kits and there was no 'elf and safety concerns about kids using sharp knives and glue. £60 for a large toy or about £10 for the kit? Easy decision.

 

Most of the figures didn't sell either. They were overpriced and crude. The unsold stock all went to landfill. That's why they are so collectable.

 

People wanted Darth Vader, some stormtroopers, the robots and the main characters. Not the rest. and certainly not the third alien on the left that you vaguely glimpse in the cantina. But the shops were full of them and all in the bargain bucket by the till....

 

 

 

Jason

[Talltim]

32 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

I remember it well. I take it you mean the large models of Millennium Falcon and Tie Fighters/X Wings for the figures.

 

Nobody bought them. Everyone bought the model kits instead by Revell. They were a fraction of the price and much better detailed. This was an era when kids made kits and there was no 'elf and safety concerns about kids using sharp knives and glue. £60 for a large toy or about £10 for the kit? Easy decision.

 

Most of the figures didn't sell either. They were overpriced and crude. The unsold stock all went to landfill. That's why they are so collectable.

 

People wanted Darth Vader, some stormtroopers, the robots and the main characters. Not the rest. and certainly not the third alien on the left that you vaguely glimpse in the cantina. But the shops were full of them and all in the bargain bucket by the till....

 

 

 

Jason

Strange, my memory is different. I remember people having the lots of figures and quite a few of the vehicles and ships, but no one building Revell kits

Edited August 15, 2020 by Talltim

[Phil Parker]

2 minutes ago, Talltim said:

Strange, my memory is different. I remember people having the lots of figures and quite a few of the vehicles and ships, but no one building kits

 

I knew people who had figures and the space ships, and those weren't from kits as the figures wouldn't fit in them.

 

34 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

Most of the figures didn't sell either. They were overpriced and crude. The unsold stock all went to landfill. That's why they are so collectable.

 

They are collectable if on cards. If you don't mind loose figures, head to your local car boot sale where they are available by the ton.

[Dunsignalling]

There are a very good practical reasons why Bachmann don't chase Hornby for the "Railroad" market.

 

They don't have a sufficiently extensive "back catalogue" of obsolete stuff to cascade into a budget range.

 

We refer to Hornby and others as manufacturers, which is something of an exaggeration in most cases. They design their products and set specifications, but farm out the actual production to numerous generalist toy/model factories in China. Their production capacity can therefore by stretched so long as they are willing to buy extra production slots.

 

By contrast, Bachmann are effectively owned by Kader Industries, who do the production and allocate capacity to their various subsidiaries as they consider appropriate. Moving into a budget market would require them to give up slots for their premium products. We wait long enough for those as it is, and logic dictates it could only happen if the toys were expected to produce bigger margins than the models, which sounds unlikely.

 

John 

[Legend]

Probably the closest you are going to get to a budget Model Railway might be one of the Mehano sets on Amazon . SamsTrains YouTube channel has reviewed the freight set , which I think was £80 and a Duplex TGV that he was less impressed with at £100 .   I know you can get a Hornby set from Aldi at the moment for £29.95 but it’s only one of the 0-4-0s .

[Philou]

I know there's a bit of topic drift, but here's a photo of a TGV duplex (Jouef in this instance) and a Hornby 0-4-0 Holden having a Grand Prix race by the two grandsons. The point of the photo is that what you see cost no more than about £160 - €80 for the TGV (track included), £40 for the Hornby (track included), £30 for scenics and the base, and £20 for some extra track. The point is, for a (in my view) minimal outlay, hours of fun have been had:

 

 

The one grandson has the Mehano TGV Duplex - absolutely no issues whatsoever.

 

BTW, the Holden won - every time!!

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

[PatB]

2 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

There are a very good practical reasons why Bachmann don't chase Hornby for the "Railroad" market.

 

They don't have a sufficiently extensive "back catalogue" of obsolete stuff to cascade into a budget range.

 

We refer to Hornby and others as manufacturers, which is something of an exaggeration in most cases. They design their products and set specifications, but farm out the actual production to numerous generalist toy/model factories in China. Their production capacity can therefore by stretched so long as they are willing to buy extra production slots.

 

By contrast, Bachmann are effectively owned by Kader Industries, who do the production and allocate capacity to their various subsidiaries as they consider appropriate. Moving into a budget market would require them to give up slots for their premium products. We wait long enough for those as it is, and logic dictates it could only happen if the toys were expected to produce bigger margins than the models, which sounds unlikely.

 

John 

Wouldn't Bachmann/Kader have all (well, a lot anyway) of the old Mainline tooling? Not that there's a lot there relevant to a modern youngster, with the most up-to-date offering likely being the 56.

[Steamport Southport]

1 hour ago, PatB said:

Wouldn't Bachmann/Kader have all (well, a lot anyway) of the old Mainline tooling? Not that there's a lot there relevant to a modern youngster, with the most up-to-date offering likely being the 56.

 

I would think more youngsters have seen the J72, the Collett Goods and 57XXs than have seen Class 56s or most other diesels.

 

Never understand this idea that kids like diesels. They don't.

 

 

 

Jason

[mdvle]

7 hours ago, adb968008 said:

it feels like manufacturers have run out of “modern” imagination, and rather than risk on a unit,

 

To a certain extent the customer is to blame - we tend to bake in price expectations on powered units and not on the reality that a multiple unit costs more than a loco to tool - and when the tooling is the most expensive part that creates an inherent conflict.

 

7 hours ago, adb968008 said:

roll back to 1987-1991.. we saw toolings for 59,60,90,91, Mk4’s, 142,150,155,156, with Eurostar,66,67 close after.

 

2018/2022 is seeing the largest transition of new rolling stock in 3 decades, GA, GWR, TP all have virtually whole new fleets yet the only game in town is the Azuma and Accurascale mk5’s... the rest is revisions of existing (which there’s nothing wrong with, but it’s not predatory business, just turnover).

 

I wonder if the privatized railway is part of the problem - with the lack of a common livery across the UK.  In the British Rail era the trains were painted for British Rail, and that made it easy to simply buy whatever caught ones interest (or what was available at a price that could be afforded) and everything blended in even if in reality they would never be seen together.

 

But today's geographic restrictions are in your face with the liveries, making it more difficult to mix/match models.

 

This then combines with the multiple unit railway, and frequently each TOC having unique rolling stock, that makes it difficult to both come up with a product that is affordable and is attractive to enough buyers.

[mdvle]

4 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

I would think more youngsters have seen the J72, the Collett Goods and 57XXs than have seen Class 56s or most other diesels.

 

Never understand this idea that kids like diesels. They don't.

 

The enduring advantage of steam, whether to an older adult or to kids, is the visible activity around the wheels that provides something to watch.

 

The advantage that more modern stuff can have is operating lights, something more appropriate in the really modern that the earlier modern with the variety of lighting.

[Steamport Southport]

1 minute ago, mdvle said:

 

The enduring advantage of steam, whether to an older adult or to kids, is the visible activity around the wheels that provides something to watch.

 

The advantage that more modern stuff can have is operating lights, something more appropriate in the really modern that the earlier modern with the variety of lighting.

 

I'm going by the amount of people who go and watch them.

 

Turn up at a Steam Gala it's full of families.

 

Go to a Diesel Gala it's full of unaccompanied men in the 50 to 70 age bracket. Very few kids about. I know, I'm one of those men.

 

When was the last time you saw hordes of kids on Crewe station looking at the trains? Thought not. They don't exist. When there's a steam train going through, totally rammed.

 

People think kids like what they liked. They don't.

 

 

Jason

[adb968008]

41 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

I would think more youngsters have seen the J72, the Collett Goods and 57XXs than have seen Class 56s or most other diesels.

 

Never understand this idea that kids like diesels. They don't.

 

 

 

Jason

I think your still confusing age groups, under 10’s might be more excited by Steam, anything will do, but after 10 years old Harry Potter, Thomas Tank, Railroad B17 will wane... Kids are clever, cleverer than your giving them credit for.

 

So what fills the void after ?

(What filled the void for you when you were a kid?) - I bet it was whatever you could see at the platform end, and may well shape your vision still.

 

i would contest your choice of J72,Collett or 57xx.. 3205 barely travels much, nor does 69023, if you’d said a J94 then i’d definitely agree with you... they are everywhere... which is my point..to create a future, influence people by what they see, not what you wanted them to see in your day, as their vision isnt yours...  

 

case in point the celebrity 91 91119 in Intercity... I see a memory from my younger years, anyone born since the 1990 (upto 30 years old) see’s a heritage livery... I still have a hard time thinking Intercity as “Heritage”... to me Heritage livery was 40106... or in your geography.. seeing 24081 at Steamport.

 

 

 

Edited August 15, 2020 by adb968008