A question from Accurascale - At what stage of development should a manufacturer announce a new model?

[96701]

I may well buy some of your stuff if it fits with what I want, no matter when you announce it. If you are prepared to risk your own company's money on a venture, that is entirely your decision. I do have an order for a 2 pack JSA. I have no idea when you announced them but the order is dated May 2020. I blieve that they might be coming soon, and have paid £10.00 deposit to Derails. I trust that these will be delivered before the huge amounts that I have paid to KR Models GT3 who run a different business model. This does not mean to say that I lack confidence in KR Models, it is just that your business model is a much lower financial risk to modellers. The timing of your announcements are largely immaterial to me, you run your business and carry risk how you think fit. Us modellers are a fickle bunch and could easily cost you money.

 

Edited November 9, 2020 by 96701
spealling is carp

[phil-b259]

 

I would suggest that its a question of time till release date.

 

If it is going to be released in the next 12 months then I would say go ahead and tell people about it - that way people have a chance to save up for it if money is tight.

 

Also there is also an issue that if you leave the announcement till the model is being shipped from China you deny the chance of potential purchasers to provide feedback. Not an issue if the manufacturer has done their research, but even then mistakes can slip through

 

What has pissed modellers off in the past is having model announced - but it takes years for it to hit the shops. Bachmann have been the main party guilty of this, although Hornby have also had issues with excessively long lead times.

 

 

[Hilux5972]

I think the least time between announcement and release is something a lot of modellers would love, but that really risks duplication. Somewhere around CAD, first EP would be ideal I reckon. 

[MGR Hooper!]

17 hours ago, Accurascale Fran said:

Hi everyone,

 

Firstly; a big thank you to @AY Mod and the BRM team for featuring us and putting on a great virtual show over the weekend!

 

Something that came up in the chat that I thought might be worth a discussion was "At what stage of development should a manufacturer announce a new model?" 

 

I have skipped it ahead here so you dont have to hear me say "fantastic" a lot to the point of discussion!

 

 

From our own point of view, we decided to announce a new wagon project with the tooling complete and a pre-production sample ready to show. This means the tooling process which is a significant outlay financially and takes a number of months to complete, is already done. At that point there is no turning back with a model as you have already laid out a lot of money on tooling. This allows us to cut down on waiting times for modellers to get the model to market, but it does run risks! As has been seen elsewhere recently, another model can be announced during that time of development which leads to possible duplication.

 

We have seen several manufacturers lay out plans to make new models before CAD process has even begun to mark their intentions against competitors, as well as let customers know, but of course, the waiting times for the projects are then longer as CAD, tooling, sample assessment, refinement, decoration, production and delivery have to take place. Crowdfunded models, or models that are a bit of a risk in the eyes of the company proposing them, have to take this strategy as they require funding of the tooling and/or wish to see if the market is there, which is understandable. 

 

So, which tactic do you prefer? Tooling completed, sample shown and less waiting? Or, stake claims from beginning, announcing more models with longer waiting times, but removing risk of duplication.  We'd love to hear your thoughts!

 

Cheers!

 

Fran

Honestly Fran, if it were me or if my advice had any sort of merit as a consumer I'd say...

 

Announce a model when CAD is complete, errors are sorted out and you have atleast a high definition 3D print to show off.

 

By doing this, your main investments are CAD expenses, the cost of a few 3D prints and your company's time. Tooling can commence at any time after this. From tooling to first EPs then second EPs and finally decorated samples should in theory take no more than 6-8 months. Thus from announcement to delivery in this aspect, you're looking at a year.

 

Just my humble opinion, HTH?

Cheers,
Hayley.

Edited November 10, 2020 by MGR Hooper!

[Legend]

15 hours ago, Accurascale Fran said:

 

Hi @Oldddudders,

 

Thanks for that. I think on the boat from China is a tad unrealistic from a manufacturers point of view, but do agree it would cut down on the "What about XYZ, what about a different scale?" type questions! 

 

 

Hi @Legend,

 

Thanks for that. As you know from here and meeting us at Model Rail Scotland for a chat we do care about customer feedback and it's why we thought we would bring this up. We do feel that we are going about things the right way and believe in that conviction, but as we say recently there was howls of "duplication" on a model due to us holding off until tooling stage. We do like to hear peoples ideas though so always good to chat it out! 

 

 

 

Hi @mdvle,

 

I think you make a great point here. We can have our ideals and stick to one plan, but each project is different for a variety of reasons. Locomotives are a much bigger risk due to costs involved which is why we have announced before tooling (though with CAD complete) so far as a means of protecting ourselves somewhat. This will change in due course as we get bigger though! Each project is different, due to competitors, deadlines etc. 

 

 

Hi @Gopher,

 

I think it's what I would do if I was the consumer too. Luckily we do make a largish production run of everything we do so stock is carried, allowing modellers to take a punt and not worry about selling out straight away (with some exceptions of course, some of the stuff sold so well it took us very much by surprise!)

 

Thanks, we really do our best to keep you updated, whether its via RMWeb, email, website, FB etc! 

 

 

Hi @No Decorum,

 

I'm going to tempt faith a bit here, (this better not come back to bite me!) but I do think model manufacturers SHOULD know their stuff when making a model and not have to rely on others to tell them what is right and what is wrong. I am not being dismissive of the vast knowledge base of enthusiasts, and we do engage with many on projects and always appreciate their input, but if a company has the capital to do so they should be confident enough in their model to tool it before showing it to customers?

 

It should be presented to enthusiasts in a correct manner from the get go. Maybe that's just us! Of course, when you get to EP level the only things that should need correcting are tiny details, rather than big things like shape etc., which doesn't cost that much in the end, only time. So it can be fixed and have the input from modellers at that stage. We have done that in the past with very minor details, but I know not all manufacturers have. 

 

Maybe that's just us, and we do enjoy the participation (one member very cleverly spotted that the body of our MDO sample is on the wrong way round on Saturday, easy fix of course but as we rushed the samples over direct to Andy before seeing them ourselves to support the virtual show something was bound to be off!) 

 

We do like sharing the processes and give you all an insight into what goes on and what decisions we make on a model. We absolutely will continue to do that and engage and have involvement in that manner! 

 

 

Hi @Benjamin Brady,

 

We absolutely hear you on the Class 92 (and Deltic and Mark 5) for that matter. As explained with the Mark 5 update, we announced both the coaches and Class 92 at the very beginning of development (though the 92 was CAD designed just before launch) and this is the long wait that has ensued and I guess part of my point. If we announce at the very start, this is how long it can take, whereas if we launched with a sample, a lot of the bumps in the road to get to that point in the project would've been accounted for. It is a bit more difficult to do it for a loco when you're building up from a small basis as explained above, but it's a very valid point, and was the one that lead us to "announce with EP sample" on wagons and coaches from now one, and ultimately the goal to do so with locos as we get stronger.

 

Cheers!

 

Fran

Wow  Fran . I’m impressed . You can associate me with a chat at Model Rail Scotland nearly 2 years on . The sign of someone with a good database  I think !  Why am I surprised ? Attention to detail like you do in everything else . Very professional .   Keep it up guys . I look at you as the great hope to sustain model railways in the future 

[Accurascale Fran]

Hi everyone,

 

Wow, some fantastic feedback I've been able to read back through with my morning cup of tea, and a lot that we would agree with. 

 

I think the path we have taken seems to be one liked by you folks (launch with sample. or launch with final CAD perhaps) so I can see us sticking around here. The other heartening thing is that you have a good understanding of how the process works for a new model to be produced. I hope our openness in this regard has helped. It was also great to get a retailers angle too as we look to build there further (up to 90 stockists now and growing!) 

 

I did a quick count this morning and if we were to launch at final CAD stage as the earliest stage we could announce 5 new models right now, with a 6th completed in a couple of days! Of course, we have held back on announcements somewhat this year as we look to deliver on our backlog of items from last year, but we keep feeding the CAD machine on new projects to keep the conveyor belt of new models coming for after we deliver our backlog. I do get the concerns about over stretching ourselves, but from a manpower POV it's why we took Gareth and Paul on to oversee our projects as we look to expand, and we are well funded too. We are going to walk before we can run though and we take small manageable steps, which is why our only new announcements this year have been the HYA/IIA and the MDO/MDV with some Class 37 variants we had planned from the initial release of that loco.

 

However, we're always working hard in the background on new things while existing projects pass through their various tooling and manufacturing processes in China. That's why when they're ready with a sample we hope it proves that it is just more than vaporware, it's a tangible model that is tooled. We always had the slight concern that CAD could be seen as vaporware as it's relatively inexpensive part of the process, and we recall a previous outfit showing CAD and well, we all know the rest of that sorry saga! However, on the other side companies have shown CAD and followed through to delivery time and again, and maybe we have now built up trust in this area too that you know we will deliver on it.

 

Overall, we believe we are on the right path and really appreciate your feedback on it!

 

Cheers!

 

Fran

 

 

 

 

[Global]

Hi Fran

 

Personally I think you  have it about right, announcing once some substantial progress has been made. 
 

Bachmann - far too long from announcement to delivery although generally get an ok (if a little basic) model at the end of it

 

Hornby - better lead times but let themselves down with the decoration or on occasions wrong tool! 

 

Heljan - again better lead times and they do seemingly ask for comment, but usually just ignore it and proceed anyway with obvious mistakes. What worries me more is the fact that they don’t spot these issues themselves beforehand (ie 25/45)

 

So of all the methods yours seems to be working, announcing when you have something to show for it, having a team that actually can put out an accurate model to start with and when you do it is decorated correctly. I feel that if you announce a model it will be worth having! 

 

So with regards to duplication I feel that provided you keep going as you have been, great communication, great models and also a reasonable pricing structure you’ll be my manufacturer of choice as I have confidence in you delivering.

 

So if you’ve built up a loyal following then whilst duplication is a risk, you’ll be better placed because of that confidence in your product.

 

I’d actually like you to start duplicating! I’m danger of straying into wish list territories here but Accurascale 47 anyone?!

 

Keep up the good work, it’s appreciated. 

[Miss Prism]

35 minutes ago, Accurascale Fran said:

and if we were to launch at final CAD stage as the earliest stage we could announce 5 new models right now, with a 6th completed in a couple of days!

 

I expect that will provoke a question or two.

 

 

[Accurascale Fran]

Just now, Miss Prism said:

 

I expect that will provoke a question or two.

 

 

 

My lips will remain sealed though! 

[Miss Prism]

34 minutes ago, Accurascale Fran said:

My lips will remain sealed though! 

 

Hmmm!

 

Either way, it's all good publicity. Which is kinda what this thread is all about...

 

[TravisM]

Hi Fran, as others have stated, there's both pros and cons to either announcing early or late and there's really no "one fits all" answer.  Personally, I would announce when you have a 3D model to display as showing that gives us a clear idea of what your planning and also, it can also be shown if you do a big announcement at show's (if they ever come back).  I remember last year you had some samples of the Class 55 Deltic displayed at the Great Electric Train show, and even though it had been announced some time before, it was great to actually "see" something in the flesh, so to speak.

[Mick Bonwick]

I'll admit that I haven't read every post in this thread, so somebody might have already voiced my opinion, which is that you've got it right. Not too long to wait, time to save up (I've started saving for the next three announccements regardless of what they are!) and I'm not too bothered about duplication.

 

Just keep 'em coming.

[G-BOAF]

I would say at the CAD stage, as this allows customers and wider experts to provide feedback on the design before production starts. We have seen a number of cases on RMWeb where feedbak has enhanced the model. While you are all experts in producing models, and no doubt consult experts, wider consultation and feedback cannot do any harm, especially if it picks up things that others have missed.

Not enough manufacturers do this....

 

I really don't mind waiting, as long as the finished product is as good as it can be, and there are regular updates on progress (be it large or small)

[Bucoops]

My opinion is of limited value as so far I've only ordered one Accurascale model under rule 1 - nothing my era yet...

 

But I would say the CAD stage too - it is clear that you do a heck of a lot of quality research for your models but once tooling is started it's expensive to fix that "little thing" that is often overlooked not through lack of effort but simple sods law!

[The Black Hat]

I would go for the CAD stage as well. Simply announcing first to stop others going for it, means long wait times and can damage reputations. It gives the impression of not caring about customers when other models can and do leap frog projects that have been announced too. Such as the class 158. 

 

CAD stage also gives a chance to show progress but for others to see if there are any errors that have crept in. Some of these will not be changed given compromises made for the model, but some could be. This also means that a short step to tooling is near and then with the announcement made it gives people a chance to anticipate and build up funds for the forthcoming models. I think that is important, particularly if your working against competition where people would like to get a model and the demand is high. It will mean pre-orders and get you to know what is popular very quickly. To be honest a lot of what your making will be. 

 

Leaving it to last minute (on the boat from China) means people can miss out - again that does nothing to help your customer base as it then makes it seem those that can afford it easily can buy and others don't matter. I'd also say its selfish of some to advocate that idea. 

 

Yes there's the chance of duplication in some areas, but that is not always a bad thing. Sometimes it forces companies to up their game and in light of the disruption to supply, or more of a move to pre-orders and limited runs - in many areas demand has still been good enough to buy up supply. Second hand prices have risen and good models sold quickly to take up the slack of this area. 

 

The key thing to get right is to produce models that people want to get in the first place. To tap the areas of demand and interest so as to generate sales. Some companies (one in particular) have got away with making what they think people want for far too long and thinking that customers would then go and buy them as they were new. That is no longer the case with more companies making models giving people the chance to choose, meaning companies must choose the right engines to make and then encourage links to their customer base. 

For me, it sees Accurascale doing all the right things and actually doing a lot of it themselves. I actually think you might fully need to take on some of the consultant roles you have done as you have set your own course and developed your own ways of getting things done. 

Im sure other projects will be equally interesting and I can see Accurascale taking a large sector of the market at one traditional manufacturers expense. The future will be challenging but I think you pretty much have it right already and that this is an exercise in confirming that. If thats the case as I suspect - I hope I've done just that. 

 

[adb968008]

No dont announce too many, unless 

 

Personally I was expecting a glut of models this year already.

Covid has delayed many of these, but if you look across the board many manufacturers are busy with CADs, which makes sense.. CAD designers dont need armies of assemblers on the floor, they can work from home.

 

But assembly floors have been quieter...

 

Where are the 59’s, Unrebuilt MN, Class 86, both class 45’s etc etc...?

There is only so much model railway factory capacity in China, and one assumes other countries CAD designers are also beavering away with new designs.

 

To me I think  there is going to be a long queue of people waiting at the factory door with CADs ready to go... but not enough work force to make them... so announcing too soon could end up in a frustrated delay or worse, if a competitor has flexibility to move slots about, could re-prioritise something to beat you. At least with tooling cut, the manufacturer has an interest in using it.

 

Announcing a CAD now doesn't shorten the wait, but it does alert everyone else.. Rails’s LMR 3rd class for example.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 10, 2020 by adb968008

[classy52]

I would say a good trade off to cover yourselves financially is to present your new product intentions at a fully completed CAD Stage so it can be presented to the buying public on whatever forums of your choosing for feedback or review that way adjustments can be made before committing to tooling.

[Accurascale Fran]

Dont worry, tongue is firmly in cheek! Our next half dozen releases are already planned out with attention paid to where they can fit in with production with China, etc. They will likely be announced with samples, though we may change beyond that tranche next year on how we announce them when things are hopefully a bit more settled again.

 

Cheers!

 

Fran

[adb968008]

6 minutes ago, Accurascale Fran said:

Dont worry, tongue is firmly in cheek! Our next half dozen releases are already planned out with attention paid to where they can fit in with production with China, etc. They will likely be announced with samples, though we may change beyond that tranche next year on how we announce them when things are hopefully a bit more settled again.

 

Cheers!

 

Fran

I would consider recruiting a bunch of “ordinary normals” people under NDA to help assess them. That reduces the “error” risk.

Other manufacturers are known to do that already, though obviously they hide in the shadows.

 

Edited November 10, 2020 by adb968008

[Accurascale Fran]

2 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

I would consider recruiting a bunch of “ordinary normals” people under NDA to help assess them. That reduces the “error” risk.

Other manufacturers are known to do that already.

 

 

It's something we already do too

[Steven B]

I think you get it about right. Very late on in the CAD stage with a 3d print, or a first production sample is the right time in my opinion.

 

Most importantly though is to keep the project moving - seeing progress even if it's slow and steady produces confidence in the manufacturer. I find it really frustrating to read about a model being anounced and then see progress being made in stops and starts with release dates being endlessly pushed back.

 

Please also keep folk up to date - no news is good news is not always true. Seeing existing projects being leap-frogged my newer ones is frustrating. It's even more so when the older projects don't get a mention during updates - leading to loss of confidence that a project might not and up with a real model we can buy. Finally, and related, please keep advertising your older projects rather than switching to the latest and greatest. At least one model shop has dropped plans for a couple of models after disapointing levels of interest/pre-orders - possibly linked to the model not being advertised enough or just slipping of the "latest news" section of a website.

 

Steven B.

Edited November 10, 2020 by Steven B

[Accurascale Fran]

1 hour ago, Steven B said:

I think you get it about right. Very late on in the CAD stage with a 3d print, or a first production sample is the right time in my opinion.

 

Most importantly though is to keep the project moving - seeing progress even if it's slow and steady produces confidence in the manufacturer. I find it really frustrating to read about a model being anounced and then see progress being made in stops and starts with release dates being endlessly pushed back.

 

Please also keep folk up to date - no news is good news is not always true. Seeing existing projects being leap-frogged my newer ones is frustrating. It's even more so when the older projects don't get a mention during updates - leading to loss of confidence that a project might not and up with a real model we can buy. Finally, and related, please keep advertising your older projects rather than switching to the latest and greatest. At least one model shop has dropped plans for a couple of models after disapointing levels of interest/pre-orders - possibly linked to the model not being advertised enough or just slipping of the "latest news" section of a website.

 

Steven B.

 

Hi Steven,

 

I think you bring up some good points here. We do our best to keep folk up to date, between here on RMWeb, Facebook, Twitter, email news letters, news stories on our website and the news pages of the various magazines (one such editor will tell you that I pestered them into putting a couple of pages of model news stories back into the magazine after giving up on it due to news breaking on the internet so fast) but try as we might we do get emails (albeit very occasionally) from a customer complaining that they havent heard from us or we have no news about xy or z projects. 

 

These projects by their very nature can take months as part of the process, such as tooling. There really is little to report until the process is complete, which is why we try to map out that particular stage of the process "production will be complete in 3 months." or "tooling us underway and is due to be completed in March" for example. After that there really isnt much we can say about them except set the expectation for the next time there will be fresh news. I understand that there has been projects where no news is heard about it for a number of months or years with no expectation mapped out, and that is something we try our best to avoid!

 

Cheers!

 

Fran

 

Edited November 10, 2020 by Accurascale Fran

['CHARD]

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

 

Where are the 59’s, Unrebuilt MN, Class 86, both class 45’s etc etc...?

 

 

Barwell's Regional Reps' Special quartet of sealed-beam Class 45/0s are on board ship, according to the latest issue of the Bachmann Times. 

[Phatbob]

Hello Fran and Co.
My twopennyworth;
Another vote for the "CAD and 3D print stage".
Now what you have been doing has worked really well for you so far, but life is an endless struggle with the law of sod.  Sooner or later, we all suffer an oversight.  I appreciate that the tsunami off feedback you have to look through after posting here is not always entirely usefull.  However, scrutiny by the Anorakia Britannica would provide possibly the most robust QA of those CADs humanly possible?
It also reduces the chances of duplication and gives us more time to save up enough beer tokens to make our magnificant purchase.
Best regards,
Bob.

 

[jjnewitt]

I think 12 is the magic number. If an RTR manufacturer can't be reasonably sure of getting a product to the market within 12 months then they shouldn't announce it. Any longer than that and it can start to get silly, especially if delays creep in which they frequently seem to do and perhaps can only be expected in these odd times? Certain maufacturers have suffered, at least in the eyes of those who populate RMweb, because of lead times that keep slipping and have run into several years and counting. Others will as well if they can't deliver on their announcements. It is, after all, not about announcements or shiny CAD models but product on shelves that people can buy today, not tomorrow or at some point in 202X.

 

I think Bachmann's new approach is a good one and I hope it changes the dynamics of the market a bit. There have been too many things that have taken an age to reach release (anything over 2 years in my book) and in these cases you find things turning up long after the excitement and impact of any announcement has passed. The world moves on to the next big announcement pretty quickly. This doesn't stike me as a particularly good marketing ploy. Accurascale are starting to creep that way with certain items such as the Deltic which is fast approaching 2 years since announcement...

 

I'm not particularly bothered about showing early CADs. Most the time it seems all you get is number of 'experts' crop up and tell the manufacturer things that they know are wrong and have already been altered. The rest of the time nothing changes anyway so what's the point... If you've got a decent team leading the development of a model you shouldn't really need feedback from RMweb in order to get things 'right'. 

 

Justin 

Edited November 10, 2020 by jjnewitt
Speling