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Locomotion Models announce 'Hardwicke' Improved Precedent Class


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3 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

One can't build a convincing pre-grouping layout around a RTR model of a single class of locomotives, or even two, particularly if that class is a passenger type. One can go for the W.S. Norris approach of representative trains. I'm a bit that way myself.

From the photos I've seen of W S Norris 0 gauge masterpiece, I think that his modelling was based on actual prototypes but whether he "matched" them to make up the trains he ran I can't say. I expect most of us run representative trains, having space limitations. Fortunately for me the LNWR tended to run a variety of styles together, so earlier arc roof stock could be seen with cove or high elliptical roof carriages.  One set I have is a 12 wheel clerestory roof kitchen dinner with 42 ft arc roof corridor carriages, which is prototypical but too short to actually represent the original as I don't have space.

19 minutes ago, sirwilliamfrs said:

If the 'Precedent' takes off, prepare yourselves for a 'Claughton' !

 A look at what the RTR manufacturers and commissioners have chosen to produce will show that these tend to be locos still in existence. The technique of 3D scanning and detailed photography helps in the development of the design artwork, whereas working from old drawings and limited B&W photos can be a considerable challenge - I know, I've done it. Unless it has been preserved, I believe that there is much less chance of a model being produced.

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A George the Fifth.  A replica one is being built so someone must have a set of drawings for the full size scratch build.  Also a small layout friendly 4-4-0, and two just managed to make it into BR ownership.  Wouldn't surprise me if Barwell already is working with the George the Fifth trust on developing a model to announce when the real loco has progressed.

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14 minutes ago, wombatofludham said:

A George the Fifth.  [...] a small layout friendly 4-4-0, 

 

Yes, weedy little engine* compared to a Midland compound!

 

image.png.ab4886fe3d8e5d9a33dd70b2063eeb79.png

 

*3P. The maths does not lie.

Edited by Compound2632
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5 hours ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

It is interesting to read so many post where RMweb members have expressed an intention to buy one of these lovely looking models, while seemingly having no specific interest in the LNWR or even the pre-grouping period. I therefore remain unconvinced that the introduction of such models will do much at all to expand the number of pre-group layouts. The Bachmann Coal Tank certainly had very little impact in that respect. 

 

 

I think the problem is that you need more than one locomotive... A couple of locos and some coaches and wagons, and suddenly everything changes. Like the SECR for example. I wasn't planning to go there, but suddenly I have a nice little SECR collection. I shall be buying a coal tank, and a Precedent to go with my Ratio coaches and Gem Cauliflower.

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20 minutes ago, sparaxis said:

 

I think the problem is that you need more than one locomotive... A couple of locos and some coaches and wagons, and suddenly everything changes. Like the SECR for example. I wasn't planning to go there, but suddenly I have a nice little SECR collection. I shall be buying a coal tank, and a Precedent to go with my Ratio coaches and Gem Cauliflower.

 

Look around now. Some very good deals on the Coal Tank at the moment.

 

 

 

Jason

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8 hours ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

 

There is a wide range of LNWR carriage 4mm kits available, London Road Models, Wizard (the former Chowbent range), Stevenson Carriages, Worsley Works and Ratio. Although no longer produced, or absorbed into existing ranges, 247, PC/Wheeltappers, David Geen, Microrail, were some of the more prominent. However, the LNWR livery is one one of the complex pre-group variety and off putting to many people. This is where Hattons will score with their generic range of pre-group six wheelers, with a LNWR livery option.

 

Pre-group railways, especially the LNWR have been very well supported by kit manufacturers for decades. Gem, K's, George Norton, LRM, M&L, Brassmasters, etc. for locos. Infrastructure items, buildings, etc. are all readily available. For for those who enjoy kit building or who wanted something beyond the readily available RTR, there is/was no shortage of kits.

 

I was aware that the NRM was interested in doing a LNWR Precedent some years ago but this was somewhat confirmed at the 2018 York MRS when I was asked if we had a Precedent running on London Road which was on display at the show.  The enquirer and his compatriot were both wearing NRM "corporate" badged coats We didn't have a Precedent  but had the smaller wheeled Whitworth so we then arranged to reorganise /disrupt the operating timetable to show them. You can imagine my annoyance, when having done so and stopping the train at a suitable position on the layout next to them, they then walked off without a word of thanks.

 

It is interesting to read so many post where RMweb members have expressed an intention to buy one of these lovely looking models, while seemingly having no specific interest in the LNWR or even the pre-grouping period. I therefore remain unconvinced that the introduction of such models will do much at all to expand the number of pre-group layouts. The Bachmann Coal Tank certainly had very little impact in that respect. 

 

Jol

 

 

It will look entirely authentic on a pair of blue/grey Mk1s . I'm very tempted.

 

I do in fact own a pair of Ratio LNWR coaches, but they are in ex LNER brown as ex M&GN stock - LNWR livery is far beyond me

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My reply regarding a 'Claughton' was inspired by the fact that it was the last and largest of the LNWR passenger locos and the fact that that one lasted into early BR days. Although it was not re-numbered, LMS 6004 was much sought after by enthusiasts in 1948. The Claughtons were also the basis of the first two Patriots which were officially rebuilt Claughtons, although the only parts used were minor, except for the driving wheels! With their many differences within the class, most notably boilers and smoke deflectors, they may well be the best-known LNWR locos and would seem to be a good subject for a model, if the Precedent sets a precedent for pre-grouping models! As a collector I welcome the model of 'Hardwicke' in particular as it's achievements in 1895 were nothing short of amazing, right up there with 6201 & 6234.

 

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When I was working, I could afford to buy models which could never run on the layout but were either unusual (LMS Beyer Garratt) or nostalgic (Metro Bo-Bo or Baby Deltic).  In retirement, I have to be more selective, so no Petrol-Electric railcar or Fell.  But......

 

When I was 8 or 9, I had two landscape colour loco albums.  One was WW2-ish in date and included both Cock O' The North and Channel Packet.  The other was pre-grouping; I remember it included Gladstone in yellow and Hardwick in Blackberry black.  Both made a great impression on my youthful mind - how I would have loved 3D models of those images!  

 

There is no way I can justify running a LNWR 2-4-0 on my 1938 ECML layout, and I already have model purchasing commitments for next year.  However, the Bachmann model looks superb.  Should I justify a 65 year-old fancy which will be confined to a display cabinet?

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2 minutes ago, 2750Papyrus said:

When I was working, I could afford to buy models which could never run on the layout but were either unusual (LMS Beyer Garratt) or nostalgic (Metro Bo-Bo or Baby Deltic).  In retirement, I have to be more selective, so no Petrol-Electric railcar or Fell.  But......

 

When I was 8 or 9, I had two landscape colour loco albums.  One was WW2-ish in date and included both Cock O' The North and Channel Packet.  The other was pre-grouping; I remember it included Gladstone in yellow and Hardwick in Blackberry black.  Both made a great impression on my youthful mind - how I would have loved 3D models of those images!  

 

There is no way I can justify running a LNWR 2-4-0 on my 1938 ECML layout, and I already have model purchasing commitments for next year.  However, the Bachmann model looks superb.  Should I justify a 65 year-old fancy which will be confined to a display cabinet?

Only you can answer that. If Rule 1 can’t be applied, what about an imaginary interchange trial? 

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2 hours ago, Ravenser said:

 

It will look entirely authentic on a pair of blue/grey Mk1s . I'm very tempted.

 

I do in fact own a pair of Ratio LNWR coaches, but they are in ex LNER brown as ex M&GN stock - LNWR livery is far beyond me

 

That was my feelings for the Stirling Single.

 

Went behind the original pulling a rake of Blood & Custard Mark Ones. Unfortunately they cancelled the one with that tender.

 

You could always run it with a brake van like it was at Dinting. Flick through the photos here. Loads of good images.

 

http://www.manlocosoc.co.uk/sutherland/slide-webone-off.cgi?ws-234&14

 

 

Jason

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One of my great memories of being a trainspotter at York, probably in the late 1970s, was of hearing the noise of a steam whistle, looking to see what was coming and seeing the wonderful sight of Hardwicke and the Midland Compound coming through. I don't recall seeing either of them in steam before or since but what elegance, gliding along with those great big wheels and the unique (certainly in preservation days) noise that the compound produced.  

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32 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

One of my great memories of being a trainspotter at York, probably in the late 1970s, was of hearing the noise of a steam whistle, looking to see what was coming and seeing the wonderful sight of Hardwicke and the Midland Compound coming through. I don't recall seeing either of them in steam before or since but what elegance, gliding along with those great big wheels and the unique (certainly in preservation days) noise that the compound produced.  

 

Since my layout runs a 1985-90 period, I think I can just about stretch a point and allow Hardwicke on a special.

 

That's one thing about this model - as well as modellers of the earlier LMS and the LNWR, BR modellers of the late 70s' /early 80s can legitimately run it. It's less of a stretch than the Stirling Single which only ran on the GCR - Hardwicke's rail tour duties took her over quite a few routes.

 

City of Truro was a good seller for just that reason

Edited by Ravenser
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10 hours ago, Ravenser said:

City of Truro was a good seller for just that reason

Indeed and after the original release of CoT as 3440 with its red chassis it was quickly followed as 3717 with a black chassis so I would think a black cab roof Hardwicke will follow. Actually are there any other differences between today and when it did run on the 70s/80s?

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24 minutes ago, 4069 said:

Those horrible big blobby handrail knobs again- ruin the clean LNWR look, just as bad as on the Stirling single.

 

A great shame.

Do you have examples of how they should look you’ve done or redone?

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17 hours ago, Ravenser said:

I do in fact own a pair of Ratio LNWR coaches, but they are in ex LNER brown as ex M&GN stock - LNWR livery is far beyond me

 

Since we're into the wishlisting round the topic phase, it occurred to me that painting panelled carriages in tricky liveries might be made easier by the kind of pre-cut adhesive masks that seem to be ubiquitous for model aircraft canopies.  I would expect a particular design period for a given company to be covered by quite a small range of panel shapes as most diagrams were creaated from repeated design elements.  Half panels to allow adjustment for odd sizes could be supplied, or easily made by the user.

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8 minutes ago, Flying Pig said:

Since we're into the wishlisting round the topic phase, it occurred to me that painting panelled carriages in tricky liveries might be made easier by the kind of pre-cut adhesive masks that seem to be ubiquitous for model aircraft canopies.  I would expect a particular design period for a given company to be covered by quite a small range of panel shapes as most diagrams were created from repeated design elements.  Half panels to allow adjustment for odd sizes could be supplied, or easily made by the user.

 

If these adhesive masks have noticeable thickness, say 0.13 mm or thicker, than there's no need for the panelling to be molded on the carriage side. One still has to deal with hinges, door bankers, and other surface detail, of course.

 

It would be a fiddly task to get them to butt up neatly, though.

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12 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

If these adhesive masks have noticeable thickness, say 0.13 mm or thicker, than there's no need for the panelling to be molded on the carriage side. One still has to deal with hinges, door bankers, and other surface detail, of course.

 

It would be a fiddly task to get them to butt up neatly, though.

 

I wasn't thinking of adhesive beading, but painting masks to fit within the panels so that the beading can be painted, in the same way masks are used to protect the clear parts of aircraft canopies while the framing is painted.  The masks are removed once painting is finished.

 

Of course this would only assist with applying a basic colour and edging lines would still need to be applied.  However someone on this or the other Precedent thread remarked that he paints a simplified LNWR livery, omitting the gold lines and that this is satisfactory from normal distances.

 

@PenrithBeacon, I remember the PC kits too.

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It really is not that difficult to paint LNWR panel coaches and I wonder if those who say they cannot do it are put off trying just as many who say they cannot solder have never actually  tried.  You can see why it looks difficult but it need not be.

 

Paint the whole side in the colour of the upper beading (so for LNWR that would be the "plum"/Lake colour.  Once dry if you are using acrylics I recommend sealing with a varnish to reduce colour bleed.

Next step it to take your upper panel colour (Spilt Milk for LNWR).  Thin down if necessary to ensure the paint flows well.  With a medium sized brush (0 or perhaps 00) take some paint and pt into the centre of a panel and work towards the edges.  Use a fine brush (000 or finer) to push the paint up to the edges and into the corners.  Be prepared to repeat the process if the darker colour shows through - which will depend on what sort of paint you have used and how much you diluted it - if at all.  

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19 hours ago, PaulRhB said:

Do you have examples of how they should look you’ve done or redone?

Here is the Bachmann/NRM City, alongside Hardwicke. On the City, the ball through which the handrail passes on the front of the smokebox is much smaller in diameter than those on Hardwicke, suggesting that it can be done, by the same manufacturer, much more neatly than we are now being presented with.

20201114_182530(0)[1].jpg

Screenshot 2020-11-14 183110.png

Edited by 4069
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24 minutes ago, 4069 said:

Here is the Bachmann/NRM City, alongside Hardwicke. On the City, the ball through which the handrail passes on the front of the smokebox is much smaller in diameter than those on Hardwicke, suggesting that it can be done, by the same manufacturer, much more neatly than we are now being presented with.

 

 


I’m not sure they are twice as big, maybe fractionally larger, if the smokeboxes are roughly the same size, the separate wire may be smaller diameter though. Difficult to tell just from photos.
 

1B4BA73F-2AC0-4F8D-BB04-FEE71D987F9C.jpeg.5c43278a8c3953ba19820d65c635bccc.jpeg

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