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Is there going to be a 2021 product announcement this year?


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1 hour ago, wombatofludham said:

Speak for yourself.  I often find the second and third runs of toolings much more to my taste.  Put it this way, I have a celebratory clean, pressed and ready to wear pair of boxers stored ready for when Bachmann announce their second run of the LMS Standard Compound in red, as I will no doubt become incontinent with joy and excitement

Dear Mr O'Fludham.

I too am looking forward to this, as I have been since the first lot which came out some 10 years ago. I just hope the tooling won't have rusted up or disintegrated by the time they get round to doing it, or that I haven't shuffled off this mortal coil. No doubt the price will have to rise enough to cover the extra transport costs due to continental drift by the time Bachmann get their finger out.

Yours.

Lord Feltham

Feltham Hall

Feltham-on-the-Hill.

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I do hope at Bachmann will give an update or indication of its plans for reliveries/new versions announced years ago and still showing as “awaited” on it’s website, not just those arriving soon. The two Class 47s (47435 in BR blue and 47711 in LL) come immediately to mind. 
 

And I hope there will be another catalogue this year, but since it won’t include anything not yet announced and announcements are now only close to delivery, it’s going to get thinner each time as outstanding models are delivered and sell out. Catalogues are a chance to showcase a brand and demonstrate it has plenty to offer, so what will happen in future years I wonder.

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2 hours ago, wombatofludham said:

Speak for yourself.  I often find the second and third runs of toolings much more to my taste.  Put it this way, I have a celebratory clean, pressed and ready to wear pair of boxers stored ready for when Bachmann announce their second run of the LMS Standard Compound in red, as I will no doubt become incontinent with joy and excitement


Indeed the second and third toolings of some classes can’t come soon enough! Lol.

 

I don’t miss the basic models, but I miss the days of Lima - being able to get a fleet of locos in the same livery in a relatively short space of time! I remember having about 4 or 5 different Res or RfD 47s - we’ve had 1 of each from Bachmann in about 10 years? 

 

Of course, it could be worse, it’s usually not until the second or third tooling that Heljan actually  get the shape right! 

Edited by Global
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On the other hand the market was awash with Lima locos that even at bargain prices would not sell quickly. We have had the same thing from Hornby with a clear overproduction of J15s for example. Bachmanns restricting production periods does at least give time for stock to move which is in the retailers interest rather than having capital tied up in boxes gathering dust.  

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1 hour ago, Global said:


Indeed the second and third toolings of some classes can’t come soon enough! Lol.

 

I don’t miss the basic models, but I miss the days of Lima - being able to get a fleet of locos in the same livery in a relatively short space of time! I remember having about 4 or 5 different Res or RfD 47s - we’ve had 1 of each from Bachmann in about 10 years? 

 

Of course, it could be worse, it’s usually not until the second or third tooling that Heljan actually  get the shape right! 

Speak for yourself...

 

Ive got Peaks growing all around me... i seem to have acquired 3 since Christmas... and ive not started renumbering yet... I promised myself only to get 2.

 

Sealed beam 46’s to come yet...

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5 hours ago, truffy said:

I wasn't sure whether the appropriate vote there was 'like', 'informative', thought-provoking', or just plain 'supportive'. Unfortunately, I can only give one.

May be time for a 'TMI' button...

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11 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Speak for yourself...

 

Ive got Peaks growing all around me... i seem to have acquired 3 since Christmas... and ive not started renumbering yet... I promised myself only to get 2.

 

Sealed beam 46’s to come yet...

Yes the peaks are an exception I guess with quite a few in a very short space of time! The regional approach is quite good if you want to accumulate a few similar in a short space of time - whether you intended to or not! ;-)

 

I wasn’t going to get any of the Bachmann ones originally as was waiting for Heljans offering, but comparing the shape issues on their sample vs Bachmann I have changed my mind and the first arrived this week and I’m about to order a second! 
 

I really hope Bachmann bring out the headlight fitted 45/1 at some point too as I’d definitely go for 2 or 3 of those! 

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9 minutes ago, Global said:

I really hope Bachmann bring out the headlight fitted 45/1 at some point too as I’d definitely go for 2 or 3 of those! 

Indeed, I wonder if a 45/1 may show up this summer from Bachmann.

All the reasons, rationale and requirements are there.

 

I dont find much wrong with the Bachmann one, and the Heljan one is a bit shy of forthcoming information. 
Ive played the patience game and at this point its looking like first past the post for me as the odds are even but the Heljan ones slightly behind on price, so lets see what comes.

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20 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Indeed, I wonder if a 45/1 may show up this summer from Bachmann.

All the reasons, rationale and requirements are there.

 

I dont find much wrong with the Bachmann one, and the Heljan one is a bit shy of forthcoming information. 
Ive played the patience game and at this point its looking like first past the post for me as the odds are even but the Heljan ones slightly behind on price, so lets see what comes.

The things that put the Heljan ahead for me was going to be the mechanism and lighting functions on dcc, but the look is important and they didn’t nail that unfortunately. 

 

Ive not had a chance to try the Bachmann on dcc but have they done anything with the lighting functionality at all? I’m thinking independently controlled tail lights etc, I believe they have done this on the 20/3.

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The way I see it is that the current Bachmann announcement policy merely reflects the realities of the situation. Bachmann UK have plenty of plans and have done a lot of groundwork on projects but are completely in the hands of Kadar when it comes to tooling and production. I would guess that the tooling department is where the logjam exists. That’s normally where there is more demand than resource in a manufacturing business. I’m sure it has been very useful for Bachmann UK to be able to bring in the EFE brand for items not made by Kadar.

If there is a queue for tooling it makes good business sense to tool up for the items that are likely to provide the best return on investment for Kadar. This means that Bachmann UK will not have control over when the tooling work for their projects is kicked off. I think this is why projects such as the N gauge 45/46 are taking such a long time to come to fruition. 

I’m sure Bachmann UK are doing everything they can to get new tooling models into production and I’m sure they get more frustrated than we do. As they almost certainly don’t have control over when things are tooled it makes good sense to not announce new models until they are pretty much ready for production. Otherwise they will just get hammered for not keeping their promises.

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I can never understand the prospect of anger over models. Why?  It's not as there is a contract in place., and there never will be.  The manufacturer or retailer will make an 'invitation to trade' and as such, the purchaser can accept or decline the invitation. 

 

If you don't like it, don't buy it! It really is that simple. Anger won't work, but market forces will.... 

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2 hours ago, tomparryharry said:

I can never understand the prospect of anger over models. Why?  It's not as there is a contract in place., and there never will be.  The manufacturer or retailer will make an 'invitation to trade' and as such, the purchaser can accept or decline the invitation. 

 

If you don't like it, don't buy it! It really is that simple. Anger won't work, but market forces will.... 

 

However, with many new models you need to pre-order or you don't get one, and I'm pretty sure that is a type of contract as you usually have to provide payment details upfront. Sometimes you have to pay in advance, or place a deposit or even pay in instalments.

 

Worth bearing in mind some models such as the 94XX and V2 were announced in March 2015. The Kernow LSWR Road Van was September 2014!

 

When that process is taking six or seven years then I think you can forgive people for sometimes getting a bit impatient....

 

 

Jason

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15 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

However, with many new models you need to pre-order or you don't get one, and I'm pretty sure that is a type of contract as you usually have to provide payment details upfront. Sometimes you have to pay in advance, or place a deposit or even pay in instalments.

 

Worth bearing in mind some models such as the 94XX and V2 were announced in March 2015. The Kernow LSWR Road Van was September 2014!

 

When that process is taking six or seven years then I think you can forgive people for sometimes getting a bit impatient....

 

 

Jason

 

I slightly disagree, if I may. If you're entering into a contract regarding pre-payment, then it's best to have a clear understanding of both parties to the contract.  Expectations (as you've noted ) have to be met. The days have hopefully gone where one fellow bull-shitted a proportion of RM Webbers, and took a holiday with the proceeds. 

 

As I view this as a hobby, I won't get worked up about non-appearance of models; No show, no money. Some manufacturers will deliberately withhold product for the RRP to match the investment returns. There is nothing that will kill me by waiting. I am indeed guilty of publicly lamenting  the poor quality of certain models. Naturally, should any manufacturer meet the expectations of the prospective purchaser, then there is no basis for complaint. 

 

IMHO, quality always sells. and sells well. if there is a close correlation between quality & price; no problem.  The problem arises when the purchaser perceives a mis-match between any of the variances that go to sealing the deal. Some models are real quality eye-openers, and some are "Woah!" Are you kidding me? 

 

Cheers,

Ian.

 

 

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It isn't just new tooling. There is also the issue of new liveries of existing tooling. We have still have not had maroon Thompsons? The Class 117/121s are fantastic, but only 3 liveries so far. Simarly the Bulleids are eagerly awaited, but the livery/diag combination that I would want is not in the first release so no pre-order from me. Bachmann has some excellent existing (or soon to arrive) products that it has yet to maximise the return on.

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16 minutes ago, Pteremy said:

It isn't just new tooling. There is also the issue of new liveries of existing tooling. We have still have not had maroon Thompsons? The Class 117/121s are fantastic, but only 3 liveries so far. Simarly the Bulleids are eagerly awaited, but the livery/diag combination that I would want is not in the first release so no pre-order from me. Bachmann has some excellent existing (or soon to arrive) products that it has yet to maximise the return on.

Indeed - i'm poised to buy a blue 117, blue 121, green with yellow panels 117 and lots of maroon Thompson stock, if only Bachmann would get round to doing them. The maroon porthole stock took ages to appear, even after the announcement.

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I think there is a perception among us that we are the customers of the RTR producers, and that models are primaily produced to our demands for our benefit.  But the production of models for our benefit is a secondary concern to the producing companies, whose real customers are their shareholders and investors and who may be owned by other companies and not free agents; our role is as purchasers, the producer's role is to tempt our wallets out of our pockets while producing models efficiently enough to make profit for these real customers, their just reward for risking their beer vouchers by investing.  The models are a by product of this process when regarded in this sense. 

 

Long lead times are damaging to the producers and their investor customers, as profits are harmed while investement takes place in the new model years before any return is seen from us, not to mention the credibility of producers who consistently fail to deliver and keep putting their ETA dates back.  An ETA is by definition an estimate, a guess, not a promise, but repeated puttings back reduce our confidence in what the firm says and leads to anger in posts here.  Throughout the 94xx saga, not ended yet btw, I've complained stridently about Bachmann's failure  to provide the loco, and  there are other models in the range similarly affected, but have tried to balance my comments with a realistation that they have had their problems, are in the control of an owning company and not completely free agents, and that there are some things that are beyond the control of even the parent company.  I think complaint is justified, but must be tempered with an understanding that we don't neccessarily have the inside track skinny.

 

i spoke to a Barwell rep on their stand at Thornbuyr in 2018 about the delayed 94xx, and he commented, rather revealing I thought, that 'it's not just an oblong box, you know'.  I did know, but my interpretation of the comment was that they'd had unforeseen production issues that had delayed the model; perhaps he was fobbing me off and looking for sympathy in place of critiicism (I was very polite about it, but I was criticising his company).   Then they lost a production slot when a Chinese factory went bankrupt, and were happy to inform us of this.  Fair enough, it was something beyond their control but I would comment that their willingness to publicise this and trust that we would sympathise, which we largely did, even me,  is in stark contrast to their close-chestedness (understandable in regard to commercially sensitive information in a competitive market) on the reasons for the other delays, and there have been several of those, the most recent being the put-back of the ETA from 'Nov' to 'Dec' and then 'Dec/Jan',  This one's going down to the wire and not making any friends for the Blue Box.  I contend that my criticism, repeated here, is polite, reasonable, and justified; us cash cows have our rights you know!

 

The 3 month announcements are an improvment in the level of information we are allowed to glean, but is really a bit of a smoke screen when it comes to models delayed as the 94xx has been. It is largely impressive lists of old models reliveried, and will be for some time IMHO.   The 94xx experience has taught me to disregard any information from Bachmanns' website catalouge that features photographs of prototypes as simply a vague intention to produce  models at some unspecified future date and 'stake a claim' to that prototype in the hope of dissuading the competition.  If the competition is dissuaded by this tactic more harm is done, as the larger company is allowed to manipulate the actions of smaller ones, against the spirit of beneficial competition, and we are denied the possibility of the model for a longer period than is necessary.

 

A philosophical approach is what I  recommend, play the long game, she'll be comin' round the mountain when she comes, but it is frustrating to see models put continually back and prices continually rising beyond the rate of inflation.  I'm the first to admit I don't always take my own advice in this regard!

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22 hours ago, wombatofludham said:

Speak for yourself.  I often find the second and third runs of toolings much more to my taste.  Put it this way, I have a celebratory clean, pressed and ready to wear pair of boxers stored ready for when Bachmann announce their second run of the LMS Standard Compound in red, as I will no doubt become incontinent with joy and excitement


Exactly the same here.

The bit about still finding second runs of personal interest, to clarify....

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Hmm.. 

 

it might help to simplify the pecking order...

 

1. Owners- want a dividend, doesnt care what 2 does to do it (sometimes a few investors have morals, but generally don’t).

2. Manufacturers - A machine to make a dividend, management at the top answer to number 1 and enforce their will on the shop floors below to deliver.

3. Retailers - feed those manufacturers that dividend, we buy from all those shops eagerly competing for our business, who as middle men take a cut for themselves.

4. Us. Unless we are also no1, no one above cares about us except 3, and R&D/Marketing in no2.

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, tomparryharry said:

 

I slightly disagree, if I may. If you're entering into a contract regarding pre-payment, then it's best to have a clear understanding of both parties to the contract.  Expectations (as you've noted ) have to be met. The days have hopefully gone where one fellow bull-shitted a proportion of RM Webbers, and took a holiday with the proceeds. 

 

As I view this as a hobby, I won't get worked up about non-appearance of models; No show, no money. Some manufacturers will deliberately withhold product for the RRP to match the investment returns. There is nothing that will kill me by waiting. I am indeed guilty of publicly lamenting  the poor quality of certain models. Naturally, should any manufacturer meet the expectations of the prospective purchaser, then there is no basis for complaint. 

 

IMHO, quality always sells. and sells well. if there is a close correlation between quality & price; no problem.  The problem arises when the purchaser perceives a mis-match between any of the variances that go to sealing the deal. Some models are real quality eye-openers, and some are "Woah!" Are you kidding me? 

 

Cheers,

Ian.

 

 

 

I was talking mainly about retailers selling Bachmann. When you sign up for a pre-order you are entering a contract with that retailer. Look at the small print on the retailers website. You do read them, don't you?

 

In some cases that might mean you are legally obliged to pay up even if you don't want it.

 

I had a few of the models on pre-order from a model shop which no longer trades with Bachmann. My local model shop. Even so those orders were made at least three cash cards in the the past.

 

What if a similar situation happened with a retailer you have a pre-order with and that model had sold out. It means you are aren't getting one.

 

Try and find a MR 1P 0-4-4T anywhere. There are only Sound Fitted ones left.

 

That's why we pre-order things. If they sell out , that's it! No more.

 

 

TLDR - Yes I prefer the shorter announcement time than the many years wait.

 

Jason

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43 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

I was talking mainly about retailers selling Bachmann. When you sign up for a pre-order you are entering a contract with that retailer. Look at the small print on the retailers website. You do read them, don't you?

 

In some cases that might mean you are legally obliged to pay up even if you don't want it.


not quite, many, indeed most, when it comes to pre-orders, say an order isnt deemed accepted until charged. Its a CYA thing, incase their pre-order qty’s dont show up , the prices rise, or the description changes,  but it opens the door both ways.

 

here is one such example..

 

Quote

All items, offers, specifications and prices are correct and believed in good faith at the time of quotation, but may change due to circumstances beyond our control. Your order will be deemed to have been accepted when we dispatch to you the goods which form the subject matter of your order. 

 

In short.. you order something wait 6 years for delivery, find the price nearly doubled and the loco in the original catalog picture changed to something else.. you cannot enforce the retailer to deliver your original order, just as much as they cannot force you to pay for it. Both parties have right to cancel.

 

Pre-orders, for the most part, require good faith on both sides, and thats what contract law is about.

 

Even if they did try to force you to buy it, you have the consumer law right to return it.

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1 hour ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

I was talking mainly about retailers selling Bachmann. When you sign up for a pre-order you are entering a contract with that retailer. Look at the small print on the retailers website. You do read them, don't you?

 

In some cases that might mean you are legally obliged to pay up even if you don't want it.

 

I had a few of the models on pre-order from a model shop which no longer trades with Bachmann. My local model shop. Even so those orders were made at least three cash cards in the the past.

 

What if a similar situation happened with a retailer you have a pre-order with and that model had sold out. It means you are aren't getting one.

 

Try and find a MR 1P 0-4-4T anywhere. There are only Sound Fitted ones left.

 

That's why we pre-order things. If they sell out , that's it! No more.

 

 

TLDR - Yes I prefer the shorter announcement time than the many years wait.

 

Jason

 

But if you have ordered online, that is against the distance selling regulations which state:  "You must tell the customer they can cancel their order up to 14 days after their order is delivered. They don’t need to give a reason for cancelling."

 

So, for internet orders there is no legal obligation to pay up.

 

Roy

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14 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Hmm.. 

 

it might help to simplify the pecking order...

 

1. Owners- want a dividend, doesnt care what 2 does to do it (sometimes a few investors have morals, but generally don’t).

2. Manufacturers - A machine to make a dividend, management at the top answer to number 1 and enforce their will on the shop floors below to deliver.

3. Retailers - feed those manufacturers that dividend, we buy from all those shops eagerly competing for our business, who as middle men take a cut for themselves.

4. Us. Unless we are also no1, no one above cares about us except 3, and R&D/Marketing in no2.

 

 

 

That sounds very logical. However, when it comes to model railways, one of the keys to success is enthusiasm. There is dedication to the subject as well as to making money. Many people, when they reach a certain level of income are content to relax a bit. That’s where the enthusiasm comes in. Simon Kohler is an obvious example but he isn’t alone. Some years ago, the London Transport Museum commissioned a model of new stock from Bachmann. Part of the inducement was a free trip on the real train to the outer limit of the system and back. David Haarhaus, the top man, turned up, along with many Bachmann people. They didn’t have to give up their weekends. There are many other examples and there is no doubting the enthusiasm they have.

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26 minutes ago, No Decorum said:

That sounds very logical. However, when it comes to model railways, one of the keys to success is enthusiasm. There is dedication to the subject as well as to making money. Many people, when they reach a certain level of income are content to relax a bit. That’s where the enthusiasm comes in. Simon Kohler is an obvious example but he isn’t alone. Some years ago, the London Transport Museum commissioned a model of new stock from Bachmann. Part of the inducement was a free trip on the real train to the outer limit of the system and back. David Haarhaus, the top man, turned up, along with many Bachmann people. They didn’t have to give up their weekends. There are many other examples and there is no doubting the enthusiasm they have.

I agree about enthusiasm, but dont confuse it professionalism.

 

speaking generally..

 

We are the enthusiasts, professionals are making a career.

ive given up many weekends on a professional basis, but it doesnt make me an enthusiast of my work topic.

 

But agree enthusiasts in professional roles, when applied would be tremendous. Unfortunately professionals making careers dont generally like it, as it threatens.

 

BR for instance actively discouraged enthusiasts in roles as it was percieved people maybe distracted by enthusiasm in their profession.

 

 

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