Why are preserved railways so unpopular as layout subjects

[DavidB-AU]

As mentioned there have been many examples of freight running on preserved lines. Stone trains to Minehead in the 90s (which on a few occasions were rescued by steam) and East lancs have been mentioned. There's also British Gypsum and high speed loco testing on the GCR. MOD trains and TOC crew training on the Mid-Norfolk Railway. The Rail Head Treatment Train and Weedkilling Train have run on a few preserved lines.

 

Another potential "what if" is regular trains running on preserved lines. For example there have been various proposals about FGW and CrossCountry running to Minehead. HSTs and Voyagers have been there. It's not that hard to imagine a 150 or Pacer running weekday Taunton - Minehead shuttles, or even Cardiff Central - Minehead trains with 158s or top and tail 67s.

 

Cheers

David

[cactustrain]

I think a preserved railway is a great choice for a model railway. For me though, the biggest problem is that the engines are too clean! If the preserved lines ran some dirty trains then I'd be pleased to model them!

[halfwit]

Another aspect of preserved lines which I don't think has been touched on here yet is the line being used for stock testing. The Ecclesbourne Valley Railway near me is used for testing on-track plant and London Underground battery locos. Other lines have been used by industrial loco manufactorers for testing, Alan Keef testing new locos on the Leighton Buzzard springs to mind and I know the bigger manufactorers have done the same. More modelling possiblities there perhaps but a lot care and thought needs to be taken to keep such operation feasible.

[scots region]

I think I'd better wrap this topic up by saying that, in-fact preserved layouts are quiet popular as layout subjects, however due to the train set stigma that is often applied to the prototype most modellers of them remain silent, leading the rest of us to assume they are unpopular. On that last point I would like to encourage anyone how does model a realistic persevered railway layout to be proud in their achievement.

[DavidB-AU]

And if anybody wants to run freight on a preserved line layout, see Rule 1.

 

Cheers

David

[PhilH]

Another aspect of preserved lines which I don't think has been touched on here yet is the line being used for stock testing. The Ecclesbourne Valley Railway near me is used for testing on-track plant and London Underground battery locos. Other lines have been used by industrial loco manufactorers for testing, Alan Keef testing new locos on the Leighton Buzzard springs to mind and I know the bigger manufactorers have done the same. More modelling possiblities there perhaps but a lot care and thought needs to be taken to keep such operation feasible.

 

Bizarrely enough on the Mid Hants railway the very latest, brand new track maintenance machinery can be seen in action on a fairly regular basis - they get 10 1/2 miles of track to practice on, we get well very maintained track. One of the plusses of having a mainline connection I suppose.

[PhilJ W]

One aspect of preserved lines that no one has remarked upon yet is those lines that 'share' facilities with Network rail. I know of at least two lines that do so. Chappel and Wakes Colne and the Buckinghamshire rail centre. The first has a regular passenger service and the other sees regular 'Binliner' freight services through the centre of the site and may soon have a commuter service if Cotswold Rail have their way!

[Pennine MC]

 

 

their front small bedroom (you can see it through the window when you are waiting for the lights to change)

 

Note to self, don't ever let Andy park outside my house

[Andy C]

Note to self, don't ever let Andy park outside my house

 

 

Well the guys who trained me in surveillance techniques all used to work in Hereford in their previous occupation

[flyingsignalman]

And if anybody wants to run freight on a preserved line layout, see Rule 1.

 

Cheers

David

 

I can only think of 3 preserved lines that have run regular freight trains (as opposed to (say) the WSR's stone trains which were for a limited period).

The Middleton Railway which was preserved, amongst other reasons, to serve traders that were going to lose their rail link when the north end of the line was closed.

The Bodmin & Wenford Railway who served Fitzgerald Lighting for a number of years and recently the Ribble Steam Railway at Preston Docks who run oil trains to a depot in the dockside area.

[James]

and recently the Ribble Steam Railway at Preston Docks who run oil trains to a depot in the dockside area.

 

The exchange operation between DBS and the Ribble railway would, I think, make an intersting model!

[steve1]

Has anyone ever modelled a foreign (ie non-UK) preserved line? Now that would be different.

 

steve

[Will J]

I have often been suprised how few layouts there are based on the 'modern image steam' line of thinking, given that is offers a few very attractive elements to the model maker.

 

While trying to work out a theme for my modelling, I imagined any number of 'imaginary preserved lines' but found that I would imagine, and sketch out, something that became unrealistic as I got carried away with too many ideas at once! I was falling into the trap of using 'pretend preservation' as a license to have anything and anything running, and in an odd way, in the end, this put me off.

 

Plan B....

 

Often inspiration is on your doorstep... I reigned in my ambitions and instead have been gradually building up the components for a 'modern' diorama based on the SVR, a stone's throw from where I live. Modelling the line as it is today (I will set it in the last 20 years or so... a fair slice of 'history' in anyone's book!) gives a lot of variety in terms of stock. Branch line services can be a Terrier with a couple of carriages or a Chiltern DMU... main line visitors can range from Tornado to the Royal Train, and those are before counting the locally based stuff. It may stray from 'realism' to some, but it is real enough as I saw them all first hand.

 

It had given me some unique challenges:

 

Carriage adapted to carry wheelchairs:

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php/blog/351/entry-3416-fleet-progress-n-gauge-severn-valley-railway-sorry-no-bridge-progress-yet/

 

Victoria Bridge:

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php/blog/351/entry-2729-grand-opening-victoria-bridge-over-the-kitchen-sink/

 

The blog has been terribly quiet lately... however my workbench has been re-awoken this weekend, so some updates will appear soon!

[Russ (mines a pint)]

Not sure that preserved lines are the 'run anything' kind of panacea anyway, though there is often variety of stuff its not necessarily all running at the same time, normally 2 or 3 engines at a time maximum - steam and diesel days are Usuallyseperate (again if I was to model a preserved railway the ELR NYMR and severn valley seem to manage the biggest variety in interesting landscape.)

Too many coaches- typically 5 upwards , not enough wagons, what exactly is the appeal, if you want to run what you want just run what you want! ... to model a preserved railway isn't a justifiable excuse, many have at some point run the USA war engines (S160?) where would you get one of them in 4mil?

[DavidB-AU]

Has anyone ever modelled a foreign (ie non-UK) preserved line? Now that would be different.

There are several US shortlines which started off running freight then later added passenger operations with older diesels and sometimes steam for tourists.

 

Cheers

David

[James]

There are several US shortlines which started off running freight then later added passenger operations with older diesels and sometimes steam for tourists.

 

In the same vein how about the Derwent Valley?

[shortliner]

If you really want to move locos about using other locos, you'd be better making something like this, rather than a "preserved" railway

http://www.trainweb.org/lfnwfan/html/Larry's.htm

http://www.ltexrail.com/

http://www.scalerailsonline.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1236

[Guest jim s-w]

Hi all

 

I agree with Larry but to take it further a lot of preserved lines are just not attractive and the operation not interesting enough for a model. Perhaps it's a national thing but I see a lot of preserved lines more akin to US model railways or model bus lines where operators design their own fleets around their own needs. Ultimately preserved lines have to balance the books so they are kind of forced into doing so but there's a big gap between preserved lines and the main line

 

Cheers

 

Jim

[Bloodnok]

With reagrds the NYMR's Whitby service being there for the community - what happens if someone in Pickering wants to travel on a Tuesday in February? The railway isn't running then. Plus the train takes and hour and a half, Yorkshire Coastliner will get you there in an hour, and out of season too, and the car will do it in much less than that too if it's quiet and for less than the £21.00 fare on the NYMR.

 

Hertiage railways are tourist attractions; they may add to their communities economies but they aren't there to serve local passengers. Tourists, daytrippers and holidaymakers are the target groups; these people are happy to pay £21 for an adult fare and take three times longer on the train than in the car. For them it's about the overall expereince and not just a means of travel.

 

A preserved / heritage railway is best viewed as a destination, rather than as transport. People go to the railway. They might get off at a few different stations and wander about for a bit, but the purpose of the trip is to visit the railway. It is not a form of transport (where the purpose of the trip is to visit something else, and the train is the method of getting there).

 

The only railway I know that operates a regular transport service as well as being a tourist attraction is the RH&DR. It's been a tourist attraction since the day it was built, so I'm not entirely sure it can be classed as "preserved", but it does operate a year round diesel hauled service, and even has a contract to provide school transportation.

 

I don't know of a standard gauge preserved railway that has successfully provided a transport service. I distinctly remember reading a study somewhere written by a railway that considered it. They concluded that 25mph was insufficient to provide a worthwhile service, and that 40mph would be required. IIRC the study was based on using a DMU and selling tickets on the train to minimise required personell. I don't recall the study looking into any possibility of actually running faster than 25mph - it was considered an immovable obstacle.

 

The question then, is "why 25mph?".

 

The standard answer is "The Light Railway Order". The legislation that introduced LRO's dates from 1898. The legislation allowed "Light Railways" to be built with significantly lower track standards. The 25mph speed restriction was imposed to allow for the lower track standard.

 

However, Light Railway Orders were made obsolete in 1993 - anything since then has been done under the Transport & Works Act (1992) via a Transport Works Order. This contains no such stipulation about speed. Quite a few preserved railways already have TWOs. Some of these already run at higher speeds - but never for passenger carrying trains, and most only while closed. I'm not sure exactly what the restrictions are that are causing this, but it's certainly not the track standards imposing the restriction any more.

 

As far as I can make out, it's a case of doing a risk assessment, writing the relevant legal paperwork, and submitting it to the right place. It has been suggested that 40mph would be achievable with the provision of secondary door locking and working AWS, but to date no preserved railway has felt it important enough to do the risk assessment, engage the lawyer and prepare the paperwork...

[Ian J.]

As far as I can make out, it's a case of doing a risk assessment, writing the relevant legal paperwork, and submitting it to the right place. It has been suggested that 40mph would be achievable with the provision of secondary door locking and working AWS, but to date no preserved railway has felt it important enough to do the risk assessment, engage the lawyer and prepare the paperwork...

[speculation]

 

There must be other factors beyond just the LRO/TWO/ROGS that affect a decision whether to run a conventional revenue earning transport service. Here are some of my thoughts:

1. I would expect some market research to assess how many people would actually use it.
2. There would then have to be an assessment of how to staff the service (both on and off train) as I don't think any of the volunteers would be happy about not being paid and expected to provide their time to conventional paying transport.
3. The railway would have to assess how much stock they required to operate said service and how much it would be to ensure it met suitable comfort and safety standards (conventional transport passengers aren't going to be happy with rough riding, drafty old coaches).
4. Then the various upgrades to the basic line infrastructure need to be considered, as well as upgrades to facilities.
5. All this is still something to consider even with only 25mph running, so to then upgrade the physical line itself for faster speeds adds even more cost.
6. Also it must not be forgotten that as soon as a heritage line starts running conventional revenue earning services, they come under the eye of the national rail network with all the potential pitfalls of the scenario that was so well demonstrated in the movie 'The Titfield Thunderbolt'. Taking that idea to a more extreme conclusion, if the revenue was high enough, and need for services became 'essential', the railway could potentially end up being brought under the privatisation system, have their track taken over by Network Rail and find themselves priced out of providing services by a different TOC...

[/speculation]

[The Stationmaster]

Under ROGS any previous enabling Acts and Orders continue to have effect - thus if a railway was granted a Light Railway Order the terms of that Order still apply.

 

If said railway wished to raise its speed limit then it would have to carry out the necessary risk assessments, put together the necessary safety verification paperwork, have it all checked/audited by the relevant 'independent competent person(s)' and enter into discussion with the Railway Inspectorate in view of the intent to seek to vary an Order.

 

Just to get some idea of what would be involved the Railway would have to cover infrastructure - such things as bridges, formation, track and signalling in terms of how it had been assessed to permit higher speed and how it would be maintained (in detail), loco and rolling stock maintenance and inspection plus assessment of any materials used in renewals and assessment of results of derailment or collision at higher speed, staff training and competence assessment, review management procedures and audit to ensure they are appropriate for the control of any additional risk deriving from operating at higher speed, and any revision to emeregency arrangements arising from the possibility of incidents occurring at a different frequency or level of seriousness. And that is for starters - it all has to be documented, and risk assessments have to be carried out in any area where the level or consequences of risk are likely to change - and they too have to be documented. It all then has to be checked, and 'tested', by an independent competent person.

And in most cases I would suggest that it would be a waste of time and money unless - as in the case of the GCR for example - the Railway is able to derive some commercial benefit from running at higher speed (which is very unlikely to be even considered for regular services in my view).

 

It is known that there have been instances of 'speeding' on 'heritage/tourist' railways especially where diesels or lightly loaded, powerful, steam locos are operated and the Inpsectorate have in some cases been monitoring this although I don't know if they have taken any action against the miscreants.

[James]

The GCR makes money mainline testing - 37 255 takes wagons at 60mph up and down the mainline at times for testing! The advantage the GCR has is that it is a 'mainline' in terms of alignment so it was designed for higher speeds. One conversation I had mentioned that some non-railwaymen connected with the GCR underestomated the cost of maintaining infracstructure for 60mph running as opposed to 25mph tourist mode.

 

One reason I think for not allowing running like this with anyone out on track is for insurance reasons (the GCR doesn't allow red zone whilst running at 60mph I'm told) as volunteers with no real railway expereince may not be safe enough to work unless they had a sentinal style system which would be costly on a small scale.

 

Ian J, I don't think there's anything stopping a TOC running over a heritage line to extend a service!

[scots region]

Not sure that preserved lines are the 'run anything' kind of panacea anyway, though there is often variety of stuff its not necessarily all running at the same time, normally 2 or 3 engines at a time maximum - steam and diesel days are Usuallyseperate (again if I was to model a preserved railway the ELR NYMR and severn valley seem to manage the biggest variety in interesting landscape.)

Too many coaches- typically 5 upwards , not enough wagons, what exactly is the appeal, if you want to run what you want just run what you want! ... to model a preserved railway isn't a justifiable excuse, many have at some point run the USA war engines (S160?) where would you get one of them in 4mil?

 

 

Exactly my point, modellers of genuine preserved railways can't run anything they want as their constrained by what the railway owns. On the subject of the S160 noone produces a dedicated model of the but DJH produce a HO kit of the American type that (I imagine) could be bashed to look like the war engines. There is another option for serious modellers who have interests in other railway, model an interregional location.

[Horsetan]

All the loco kits I acquired are of prototypes that are preserved, and eventually they will be turned out as the preserved engines.

[Bloodnok]

Under ROGS any previous enabling Acts and Orders continue to have effect - thus if a railway was granted a Light Railway Order the terms of that Order still apply.

 

Absolutely. But as I understand it, no new Light Railway Orders have been granted since 1993, and there are several preserved railways now running on a TWO rather than an LRO.

(Snip details of just how complicated the process is)

 

And in most cases I would suggest that it would be a waste of time and money unless - as in the case of the GCR for example - the Railway is able to derive some commercial benefit from running at higher speed (which is very unlikely to be even considered for regular services in my view).

 

There is a lot of work involved, and the use of a "competent person" at many of the stages means it will be an expensive procedure. Most preserved railways would never recoup the cost.

It would be a mistake to do all that work without knowing that a.) there is a benefit to achieve, i.e. some additional revenue that could be obtained, and b.) that there is a reasonable chance of success.

Several of the larger preserved railways seem to have done this - I know the SVR and the GCR have both operated at higher speeds (but not in passenger service).

 

I can't remember which railway it was that did the study I am remembering, but I do recall that they did do research into potential ridership. They were in the relatively unusual position of having genuine traffic to tap into - a lot of preserved railways are preserved precisely because there isn't much if any traffic for them...

The GCR makes money mainline testing - 37 255 takes wagons at 60mph up and down the mainline at times for testing! The advantage the GCR has is that it is a 'mainline' in terms of alignment so it was designed for higher speeds.

 

While mainline alignment is undoubtedly an advantage, the typical branch line alignment is good enough for more than 25mph. The report I read said 40mph was the required speed to become competitive - and I'd expect most branchlines to be able to match that over much of the alignment.

 

I don't think there's anything stopping a TOC running over a heritage line to extend a service!

 

If we ever see something like that, I'd say it's more likely to be an open access operator - TOCs are rather tied down to their franchise commitments. It is not unknown to see the service pattern and rolling stock as part of the franchise spec - leaving very little room for extra services.