apollo 079 Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 The case is beyond doubt that contemporary diesel locos have now been covered or announced in one or other RTR range. So no-one has criticised Bachmann's class 25 (roofline), 45 (lack of a sealed beam variant), 55 (nose shape)? Ahd where is the long-promised rtr class 20/3? How about the Hornby class 59 and 73? Both classes seen on main line metals, and both models based on old Lima tooling. Come to think of it, what about the 56 and 31 too. I'm not saying they aren't available in some form or another, of course they are, but are the models up to the standard we are slowly coming to expect? The point about electrics is that in spite of several "toe-dips" in the past, going right back to the Triang AL1 in the 1960s, no rtr manufacturer in the British market has (yet) committed itself fully to this branch of modelling, and we can't buy what they don't make. Maybe I'm wrong and there is no ground-swell of demand for electrics (or maybe it's too big a can of worms for anyone to try opening, after all it's not just AC overhead locos we're talking), but I for one firmly believe that this is where the future of the hobby lies. Kevin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
'CHARD Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 So no-one has criticised Bachmann's class 25 (roofline), 45 (lack of a sealed beam variant), 55 (nose shape)? Ahd where is the long-promised rtr class 20/3? How about the Hornby class 59 and 73? Both classes seen on main line metals, and both models based on old Lima tooling. Come to think of it, what about the 56 and 31 too. None of these are contemporary though. The debate was centred on inadequate models of present day diesels. We have criticised the Bachmann 25 to the Nth degree, the Deltic's ride height and nose (most recently this is being aired on the DP2 thread) and the Peak Army have let their displeasure be known that the healed-up nose isn't in the catalogue. There are many people on here whose wish list is topped by the Highland Baby Sulzer, but we also know that the body makeover slot is currently occupied by the Class 40. And while the existing model is a steady seller, we don't know if Bachmann regard it as core - and hence we've been suggesting it playfully to Dapol, to name but one. I'd agree with you about the 31, but the 56? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PLD Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 For 'competition', read 'duplication', and get ready to pick the bones out of the ensuing semantics. It's a brave man who kicks that debate off. Easy Ian, Regardless of the merits of each version; If the writers favourite manufacturer does it first it's 'Unnecessary Duplication', If the writers favourite manufacturer does it second it's 'Healthy Competition'... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.A.C Martin Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 So no-one has criticised Bachmann's class 25 (roofline), 45 (lack of a sealed beam variant), 55 (nose shape)? Ahd where is the long-promised rtr class 20/3? How about the Hornby class 59 and 73? Both classes seen on main line metals, and both models based on old Lima tooling. Come to think of it, what about the 56 and 31 too. I'm not saying they aren't available in some form or another, of course they are, but are the models up to the standard we are slowly coming to expect? Well no, but do you honestly expect them to all be done at once when 1) the Bachmann 25 still sells in large numbers 2) so does the 55, 3) Hornby DID a fantastic model of the 56 which is one of the best RTR diesels on the market, and 4) the 31 is "adequate" and like the 25, still sells in reasonable numbers. Bachmann are retooling the 40 and Hornby are doing the 67. Both surely commendable, and doing exactly what you are asking for? I sincerely do not understand the insatiable desire to "refresh" diesels when the models currently on the market are in most cases not completely beyond the pale, every few years or so. I sincerely don't understand the criticism levelled at the class 56 which was, I thought, extremely well received! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Y Posted March 14, 2012 Author Share Posted March 14, 2012 but I for one firmly believe that this is where the future of the hobby lies. Obviously that's a personal perspective but I could counter it by saying that there's significant interest in the products from manufacturers and commissioning retailers of items whose roots are pre-grouping. I believe the future lies in several directions rather a simple classification. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
apollo 079 Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 For 'competition', read 'duplication', and get ready to pick the bones out of the ensuing semantics. It's a brave man who kicks that debate off. I'd say that these two words are far from being congruent in modelling terms, unless the two models are made out of the same mouldings in the same factory. There is the matter of personal preference. For example, some think the ViTrains 47 to be better than the Bachmann model. I and many others disagree, but I would not call this duplication. Perhaps 'alternative' is a better word. Kevin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 33212 Posted March 14, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 14, 2012 Are they? I dont know how many of these 'people' you speak for, but it's certainly not everybody. I've no intention of buying, for instance, the L&Y tank, but it still pleases me that I'll be seeing them on the layouts of others, at shows or in the mags. Well, I speak for myself, but knowing the wish lists of some of my friends, they too were looking for more EMU's (one hopes to have to avoid drilling holes for Bullied 4 EPB door handles!) but hey ho, out with the drill he goes! Having slept on it, I reckon that Bachmann will be waiting until after the 205 is released before announcing another SR EMU, they will obviously not want to steal the thunder from that, so maybe next March we'll see something.... so I'll be getting a 205 and an MLV or two this Summer.... Matt Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Kazmierczak Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 Maybe slightly off track, but sometimes we forget how small the ranges of some of the rtr manufacturers were. For example, Hornby Dublo c1960: Southern 0-6-0T (in BR unlined black & green versions) Eastern N2 0-6-2T (lined BR black) Eastern A4 4-6-2 (lined BR green) Western Castle 4-6-0 (lined BR green) Midland Duchess 4-6-2 (BR maroon) Midland 8F 2-8-0 (unlined BR black) Standard Cl.4 2-6-4T (lined BR black) 0-6-0 diesel shunter (green) Bo-Bo EE type 1 (green) That was about it, at a time when railway modelling was in (one of its) golden ages. Peter Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.A.C Martin Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 I'd say that these two words are far from being congruent in modelling terms, unless the two models are made out of the same mouldings in the same factory. There is the matter of personal preference. For example, some think the ViTrains 47 to be better than the Bachmann model. I and many others disagree, but I would not call this duplication. Perhaps 'alternative' is a better word. Kevin The 47 is a case in point. It is "duplicated" ("offered"?) in four different manufacturer's ranges to various levels of detail. Hornby, Heljan, ViTrains and Bachmann. All four have, or currently offer, Virgin liveried 47s. Are these not then "duplications" of each other's models? They all depict the same locomotive class, in the same livery, after all? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pennine MC Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 I'd say that these two words are far from being congruent in modelling terms, [snip], but I would not call this duplication. Perhaps 'alternative' is a better word. Like I said, semantics. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semantics Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
'CHARD Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 The 47 is a case in point. It is "duplicated" ("offered"?) in four different manufacturer's ranges to various levels of detail. Hornby, Heljan, ViTrains and Bachmann. All four have, or currently offer, Virgin liveried 47s. Are these not then "duplications" of each other's models? They all depict the same locomotive class, in the same livery, after all? But not one of them's done my favourite, 47999. I was expecting it to be on Bachmann's list of announcements this year, as it's unique with its Serck tri-grille, buffer aerials and periscope, and the missing double arrow on the non-driver's side at number 3 end. Yet again I've been let down. I can't understand this when I know all my friends want one too, even though none of them has ever actually owned a model railway loco. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngusDe Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 All, As a 10-12yo (79-83) train spotter at Polmadie and Gushetfaulds I often couldn't tell a 50 from a 47 till they got closer, same with 40/45s and 24/25s and 26/27s, let alone the sub classes. So I often wonder just how many buyers are put off by the most subtle of errors in the modern models, very few I guess. The most glaring error in all the modern stock is the track they run on. I am guessing, but I presume these errors in the modern models - given the laser scanning of the prototypes, etc - are to do with the manufacturing process and ease of tooling to keep the prices within their target range. I am also surprised at the comments about the toe in the water 25Kv and 3rd rail electrics, given that manufacturers have been dipping for, what, 50 years? Hornby Doublo, Trix and Triang all tried long before the more modern Lima and Hornby efforts and now the latest Bachmann and Heljan, there just doesn't seem to be a big market. It should be a lot easier with modern smaller batch production, but the initial tooling costs must still be high. Why isn't there a big market? Well, I reckon it is partly the lack of "play value" in these models, the continental manufacturers all have some form of overhead systems available in their catalogues. Hornby has steadily lost a lot of "play value" from the range, no working freightliner crane any more, no overhead any more etc. Folk, especially youngsters, will I suspect lose interest more quickly because of that. Hornby stock itself has also lost a lot of "play value" as more and more can't negotiate 1st radius curves or cope with the gradients(magnahesion)/gradient transitions(stock clearances/running heights) that they could in the past. Another favourite that is long gone is the smoke units. As the ranges have become better for the collector and/or serious modeller, they are losing interest for the youngsters. Only time will tell the long term consequences for this strategy. Perhaps the biggest question, and one we'll probably never know the answer too, in this play/toy and modeller trade off is how many 4Fs will Hornby sell in the next 24 months v how many Bachmann will sell?... Anyway just a few observations and not a dig at anyone in particular! As for the embarrassing 47 and 50 admission I should add that at 53 I still have near perfect vision... Cheers, Angus Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Kazmierczak Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 A Brush 4 with 3 ends; that I must see. On the other hand, perhaps not. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
southernelectric Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 You're not interested in a Thumper then, due from Bachmann later this year; I find that surprising. As has been said above, the majors tend to rest regions for a while after there's been a big splurge, whilst there's still shelf-stock and possibly little casual demand, that way to build up a better head of demand from the - in this case - juice-rail devotees, ready for announcements or additions in 2015 say. Oh yes, I am indeed interested in a Class 205 Thumper and have pre-ordered a BR Blue one from Kernow already. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
'CHARD Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 Why isn't there a big market? Well, I reckon it is partly the lack of "play value" in these models, the continental manufacturers all have some form of overhead systems available in their catalogues. Hornby has steadily lost a lot of "play value" from the range, no working freightliner crane any more, no overhead any more etc. Folk, especially youngsters, will I suspect lose interest more quickly because of that. Hornby stock itself has also lost a lot of "play value" as more and more can't negotiate 1st radius curves or cope with the gradients(magnahesion)/gradient transitions(stock clearances/running heights) that they could in the past. Another favourite that is long gone is the smoke units. Freightliner no more Overhead no more Magnadhesion no more Synchrosmoke - no mo-ore... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Kazmierczak Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 Freightliner no more Overhead no more Magnadhesion no more Synchrosmoke - no mo-ore... Sounds like a song by The Proclaimers..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Captain Kernow Posted March 14, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 14, 2012 The 47 is a case in point. It is "duplicated" ("offered"?) in four different manufacturer's ranges to various levels of detail. Hornby, Heljan, ViTrains and Bachmann. Well, to me, they all pass the Captain's 'Black 5' test - if it looks like a Black 5, then it must be a Black 5. Similarly, they all look like Class 47s to me. They all have the right number of wheels and cab windows. None of them has a chimney or a crane job sprouting from the roof.... I often couldn't tell a 50 from a 47 till they got closer Well, exactly! This 'diesel fundamentalism' exhibited by some folk has long puzzled me, especially when (as others have observed in this thread, in so many words, 'we've never had it so good'). There are often things wrong with steam outline models, but there usually seems to be a lot less fuss made about this, perhaps it's easier to just change a chimney than a roof grille?.... I don't really know, but I do find some of the (almost) venomous outbursts against various 'faults' in R-T-R diesel models baffling.... I'm not saying that people shouldn't raise issues, but there are ways of expressing yourself, and then there are other ways of expressing yourself... But then again, what do I know? I even think that the Bachmann Class 25 looks like a, er, Class 25, - WASH YOUR MOUTH OUT WITH SOAP AND WATER!! - ......well, it certainly bears more than a passing resemblence to the real thing (as observed by me on heritage railways, and going further back, in a work context). And, as someone else has observed, it continues to sell well for Bachmann.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
60163 Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 I for one think this a fantastic list. It's a bit of a shame to peer into a thread and see it filled with such tension, but I suppose that's bound to happen in an RTR manufacturer's thread Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngusDe Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 Freightliner no more Overhead no more Magnadhesion no more Synchrosmoke - no mo-ore... lol! You'll be pleased to know I've bought my Proclaimers tickets for Edinburgh later in the year! Angus Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 ... I am also surprised at the comments about the toe in the water 25Kv and 3rd rail electrics, given that manufacturers have been dipping for, what, 50 years? Hornby Doublo, Trix and Triang all tried long before the more modern Lima and Hornby efforts and now the latest Bachmann and Heljan, there just doesn't seem to be a big market... The implied error in that statement is that the relative performance of a given sector of a particular product group is going to remain static forever. Keep in mind always that it is relative performance that matters to a manufacturer: how much return is achieved for my N dollars of investment if I put it into making models of steam types, diesel types, electric types etc. Received wisdom a decade or so ago was that in addition to AC electric types, 3rd rail multiple units also performed relatively poorly. Bachmann put toe in water as another manufacturer had done before them, and this time - judging purely on there being two follow on 3rd rail products - the relative performance must have been found to be acceptable. Likewise a 'retest' on AC electrics is a very reasonable thing to do. Maybe it will be the same news as previously, but maybe not; and this is the only way to find out: the wallet vote alone is definitive. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodenhead Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 A 4CEP, 4VEP, 2EPB, MLV and a 205 on the way, add to that 33s, 73s and 47s - that's not a bad lot to start up a southern flavoured modern image layout. If I wanted to do South Manchester under the wires in a similar period I would have to kit bash a 304, 310 and all the electrics from 81 to 84. If I wanted to model Kings Cross circa 1978 where is my 312, 313 Glasgow - where is my 303, 311, 314 Liverpool street - where do I start!!! So who's really lacking when it comes to RTR models. A couple of years back there were no electric units 3rd or overhead, 3rd rail has had a real windfall and there will be more to come just not right now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southernman46 Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 A 4CEP, 4VEP, 2EPB, MLV and a 205 on the way, add to that 33s, 73s and 47s - that's not a bad lot to start up a southern flavoured modern image layout. Not forgetting the 5-BEL and the easy creation of a BR 4-EPB from a 2-EPB & a couple of Dapol Suburbans............... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
micklner Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 Mick, for many 4mm modellers what you say is undoubtedly correct. However, for those that wish to produce the model railway that they want, rather than what RTR products allow them to do, the availability of the wide choice of models available from the kit manufacturers makes their hobby possible. In my case there is nothing for the LNWR and even if Bachmann had produced a North Western 2-4-2T, one loco doesn't sufficiently represent a railway. That's especially the case when their is no matching carriage stock to go with it. Can you ever see fully liveried LNWR carriages available RTR? As for 7mm being a rich man's pastime, the 7mm modellers that I know would robustly refute that. The number of kits and manufacturers in 7mm would also seem to prove otherwise. The big layouts we see these days, Retford, The Gresley Beat, Dewsbury Midland and Liverpool Lime Street are just a few examples, are usually 4mm and often feature a high proportion of kit or scratch built models to more accurately portray the railway scene they represent. I have eight kit built locos at the moment, with about the same number still in their boxes, amassed over fifteen years. Assuming a total cost per kit of £150, that would be on a par with a RTR collection of about twice that number. How many users of RTR models have a collection of thirty two locos, bought over the same period? Quite a lot, I should imagine. I read one post yesterday where the writer said he would probably be buying six to eight of the new introductions over the next twelve months. I don't think he is on his own. Where will RTR prices go? If the Chinese economy continues to enjoy/suffer from wage increases and their currency is allowed to become stronger, then prices will increase. However, the manufacturers will shift their production outsourcing to other cheap economies, so you will be spared to some degree. Perhaps I could be seen as perverse in creating the model that I want (although I am not alone in that pursuit), rather than that which Bachmann and Co enable me to do. For me, the research, planning and building that model - including the locos and rolling stocks - is where the satisfaction lies. Jol Jol Some excellent points 95% of which I totally agree with. I am very surpised how few kit locos you have bearing in mind you make and sell them!! If I was in your position it would fell like xmas every day!!. I do make lots of kits in case you think I am a RTR man, look at my workbench for examples. How ever if something fits my theatre of interest LNER (NER)and at a good price I will jump on it , be assured. As you say re LNWR ,I agree as baseing mine on ex NER area doesent give a lot of choice either!! I am lucky in that a chose a later period to model and the :LNER is being served by RTR like never before with top quality Locos. Sorry 7mm is not cheap or comaprable with 4mm prices IMHO !! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium brushman47544 Posted March 14, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 14, 2012 eh....where've the posts I was going to quote gone..?? Never mind - I was going to selectively quote some of the posts concerning duplication and prices using the Italian outline as an example. Anyway, I think as many people have said before, there are two key factors that appear so far to have deterred manufacturers from duplicating (and thereby hopefully seeking to better) existing models. These are: 1. Modellers of UK outline are apparently notoriously reluctant to replace older models when something new and better comes along. The mainstream view seems to be "it may be better but not enough for me to replace my existing models"; and 2. To deliver a model sufficiently "better", and I use that word loosely, the RRPs are now steadily moving towards £150, which apparently is more than we are prepared to pay. By contrast, this is quite a low price compared with the similar spec. Italian outline Rivarossi and Roco models. Whilst the D&E market remains smaller than steam outline, I think we're lucky to see some of the duplication that already exists. As for another all new Class 31, 50, 56 or 86 as some seem to want in spite of relatively new offerings from elsewhere, I have to ask - what's in it for the manufacturers, other than a high financial risk? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
reevesthecat Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 Modellers of UK outline are apparently notoriously reluctant to replace older models when something new and better comes along. The mainstream view seems to be "it may be better but not enough for me to replace my existing models". If this is the case why are Bachmann redoing the class 158 then? mark Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.