Wright writes.....

[Willie Whizz]

Lovely carriages, Tony.

 

Can I ask a question about your "Hornby Gresley + so-and-so's brass sides" conversions please?  I'm hoping to have a crack at a couple of these soon, based on your published descriptions from a year or two back.

 

One of these will be a restaurant car, and I'm nervous of some interior fittings coming loose over time with handling of the vehicle, so I would rather the body (or just the roof) and underframe could still be separated if the need arises, once the plastic clips on the 'donor' body are lost with the cutting-away of most of the plastic.  I'm not clear from your writings how you go about arranging that (if indeed you do) and would be very grateful for enlightenment.

 

Many thanks.

 

Malcolm

[thegreenhowards]

In preparation for the CMRA Modellers' Day tomorrow at Parmiter's School, Watford, I've been completing some carriages. 

 

Gresley RK.jpg

 

This is a Hornby/MJT conversion to make a Gresley Kitchen Car. 

 

M&GNR RU 24.jpg

 

Apart from some end wires (to be fixed after the roof went on), the D&S Buffet Car is now also complete. I've lettered it 'Buffet' because it's shown as that in the appropriate M&GNR carriage workings, though a picture of the same car taken some years earlier (painted in carmine and cream) has it lettered 'Restaurant Car'. Jonathan Wealleans kindly sent me a picture of one of these cars in a Birmingham-Yarmouth through train (extended from Leicester), but it's impossible to tell how it's branded. Still, in keeping with my stock-building philosophy, it's clearly a 'layout carriage', and, for me, it serves that purpose just fine. 

 

M&GNR RU 25.jpg

 

M&GNR RU 26.jpg

 

As these two pictures illustrate, or, at least, I hope so. Here it is in the last year of the line's operation getting on for 60 years ago, when B1 61159 was used for a time. Though, according to its RA rating, a B1 was too heavy, by the end nobody cared. If it had gone into one of the fen drains it might have hastened the line's closure. The B1 is another of my 'layout locos', a detailed/renumbered/weathered Bachmann body/tender sitting on a Comet chassis. Even if I could build and finish  to the highest standards (which I definitely can't), I'd see no point. All the stuff I make runs on my layout and has to work; hard. I've no wish to be beholden to anyone to make my locos and stock (personal satisfaction and fiscal restraints), so, I hope, they all fit in to the overall scene. That's why I'm always encouraging folk to have a go themselves and to show their work. Larry Goddard's carriages knock mine into a cocked hat (as do Andrew Teale's), but that's not the point. With reasonable skill and a will to make something for yourself, most modellers (or those who call themselves modellers) should be able to achieve the sort of things I illustrate. But, only if they try. 

 

If you'd like to see these (and several other models), please come over and have a chat tomorrow at the CMRA Day.

 

Hi Tony,

 

They're lovely coaches. I'm tempted by the MJT kitchen car, but I'm not sure what they worked by the late fifties. There are very few kitchen cars in the carriage workings, and I assumed those that are shown were Thompson's. What do you intend to use yours on?

 

Regards

 

Andy

[Tony Wright]

Lovely carriages, Tony.

 

Can I ask a question about your "Hornby Gresley + so-and-so's brass sides" conversions please?  I'm hoping to have a crack at a couple of these soon, based on your published descriptions from a year or two back.

 

One of these will be a restaurant car, and I'm nervous of some interior fittings coming loose over time with handling of the vehicle, so I would rather the body (or just the roof) and underframe could still be separated if the need arises, once the plastic clips on the 'donor' body are lost with the cutting-away of most of the plastic.  I'm not clear from your writings how you go about arranging that (if indeed you do) and would be very grateful for enlightenment.

 

Many thanks.

 

Malcolm

Good evening Malcolm,

 

Thanks for the kind comment. 

 

Fixing the replacement bodies to the underframe is quite simple, really. It has to be because I thought of it!

 

 

It can be done in one of two ways. Like this, using 8BA screws (green) passing through appropriate holes in the floor pan (red). Brass stretchers are soldered both ends with the screws soldered through them.

 

 

Then 8BA nuts hold the two components together.

 

 

Or 8BA nuts can be soldered to the tops of the stretchers (green), not the bottoms, otherwise they'll foul the pan, again with appropriate holes drilled through the floor pan (red).

 

 

The pan is then secured with 8BA screws. 

 

Using the former method, the screw must not protrude too far, otherwise it fouls the bogie. It's wise to make the holes about 6BA in size, to allow for adjustment, fitting a washer when completely happy with the fit.

 

Any interior detail is glued to the floor pan. 

 

Subsequent removal of the body is dead easy; take off the bogies, undo the nuts or screws and the thing comes apart. 

 

 

 

Even though Hornby might do a carriage you need, it's better (in my view) to replace the sides anyway, because the shape is all wrong at source. Note how much better the shape of the tumbleholme is on the brass-sided example (centre) compared with the Hornby original (left).

 

I hope this helps.

Edited July 17, 2016 by Tony Wright

[Tony Wright]

Hi Tony,

 

They're lovely coaches. I'm tempted by the MJT kitchen car, but I'm not sure what they worked by the late fifties. There are very few kitchen cars in the carriage workings, and I assumed those that are shown were Thompson's. What do you intend to use yours on?

 

Regards

 

Andy

Good evening Andy; thank you for your kind comment.

 

Good question. I did the RK conversion as part of an exercise for Dart Castings, using their MJT sides and heavy-duty bogies. What to do with it afterwards is a moot point. 

 

From photographic evidence, Kitchen Cars in ECML sets were either Thompson or Mk.1s. The car in question (the prototype that is) was built in 1939 and, I believe, worked principally in Scotland. Does anyone know for certain, please? My painting of it is really supposition, assuming such a late-built Gresley car would survive long enough to be painted maroon. 

 

How will I use it? In an empty stock rake, because it's such a handsome vehicle (it just is, not because I built/painted it). Unless someone makes me an offer...............

Edited July 15, 2016 by Tony Wright

[davidw]

Tony, That's spooky. I was just about to message you about the MJT RK. Thanks for posting.

[Headstock]

In preparation for the CMRA Modellers' Day tomorrow at Parmiter's School, Watford, I've been completing some carriages. 

 

Gresley RK.jpg

 

This is a Hornby/MJT conversion to make a Gresley Kitchen Car. 

 

M&GNR RU 24.jpg

 

Apart from some end wires (to be fixed after the roof went on), the D&S Buffet Car is now also complete. I've lettered it 'Buffet' because it's shown as that in the appropriate M&GNR carriage workings, though a picture of the same car taken some years earlier (painted in carmine and cream) has it lettered 'Restaurant Car'. Jonathan Wealleans kindly sent me a picture of one of these cars in a Birmingham-Yarmouth through train (extended from Leicester), but it's impossible to tell how it's branded. Still, in keeping with my stock-building philosophy, it's clearly a 'layout carriage', and, for me, it serves that purpose just fine. 

 

M&GNR RU 25.jpg

 

M&GNR RU 26.jpg

 

As these two pictures illustrate, or, at least, I hope so. Here it is in the last year of the line's operation getting on for 60 years ago, when B1 61159 was used for a time. Though, according to its RA rating, a B1 was too heavy, by the end nobody cared. If it had gone into one of the fen drains it might have hastened the line's closure. The B1 is another of my 'layout locos', a detailed/renumbered/weathered Bachmann body/tender sitting on a Comet chassis. Even if I could build and finish  to the highest standards (which I definitely can't), I'd see no point. All the stuff I make runs on my layout and has to work; hard. I've no wish to be beholden to anyone to make my locos and stock (personal satisfaction and fiscal restraints), so, I hope, they all fit in to the overall scene. That's why I'm always encouraging folk to have a go themselves and to show their work. Larry Goddard's carriages knock mine into a cocked hat (as do Andrew Teale's), but that's not the point. With reasonable skill and a will to make something for yourself, most modellers (or those who call themselves modellers) should be able to achieve the sort of things I illustrate. But, only if they try. 

 

If you'd like to see these (and several other models), please come over and have a chat tomorrow at the CMRA Day. 

 

Hi Tony,

 

Just a quick post, smashing looking carriages. I would be slightly wary of RB designations in CWN's, sometimes this could be a provided by another catering car offering a Buffet service only. Regarding Kitchen Cars, they often turn up in special train notices providing the catering on excursion traffic amongst others types. By the late 50s early 60s with the decline in full catering provision and that kind of traffic, they would be more likely to be languishing in sidings. Add to this the arrival of BRs own catering designs and the fate of many was sealed by the scrappers torch.

 

On a personal note, I have always found your 'layout' carriages massively inspirational in unlocking any modeling talent I may have. Hopefully, other people will have a look at what you have created and be inspired to personalise their trains with a little bit of carriage building. They don't require motorizing chassis, or valve gear, and are often mostly one colour, what could be easier than that. Off course, once the bug bites and a rake is produced then a locomotive will have to be built  to pull them. The future of modeling is assured.

[billbedford]

Apart from some end wires (to be fixed after the roof went on), the D&S Buffet Car is now also complete. I've lettered it 'Buffet' because it's shown as that in the appropriate M&GNR carriage workings, though a picture of the same car taken some years earlier (painted in carmine and cream) has it lettered 'Restaurant Car'. Jonathan Wealleans kindly sent me a picture of one of these cars in a Birmingham-Yarmouth through train (extended from Leicester), but it's impossible to tell how it's branded. Still, in keeping with my stock-building philosophy, it's clearly a 'layout carriage', and, for me, it serves that purpose just fine. 

 

 

As I said in a previous post, this should have been branded 'Restaurant Car'. The buffet cars were quite different:

 

[St Enodoc]

Graham,

 

Anyone who can build carriages to the standard you've illustrated should have no trouble in converting a Bachmann A2 into an A2/3 using Graeme King's parts. 

 

Whether you'd do it as well as Tim Easter is a moot point, but I see no reason why not. Tim is a most-accomplished modeller but the requisite skills can be learnt. Not only that, the sense of personal satisfaction from having done the job yourself is sans pareil. Though you've done some extra work on your 60506, it's really a possession (a very nice possession, to be fair). When you do your A2/3 conversion it'll be your creation (like your carriages). Speaking of your 60506 (which looks superlative), please, please chuck away those horrid bogie wheels and fit Markits' replacements. The LNER Pacifics' bogie wheels had prominent bosses and flared spokes. Those don't! 

 

I've mentioned before how much I've admired Graeme King's work in providing the resin bits and pieces (and frets) to enable modellers to create conversions such as you've shown. I admit, it's not for me, because I'd much sooner build a complete kit (soldering resin/plastic just creates a stink!), if only for the greater adhesion to be obtained. In the two images I posted yesterday, both locos were on a 13-car kit-built (metal, with one exception) train. Leaving the fiddle yard 60515 just slipped and slipped. 60516 just walked away with it. That said, I'm immensely grateful to Graeme for doing the conversion for me - I just handed him a Bachmann A2, he did the conversion and I just finished off the painting/weathering. It was another example of horse-trading. 

There's a ready-built PDK kit of 60506 on eBay at the moment.

[Mallard60022]

With reference to weathering techniques; Tony said...."Whether you'd do it [ED: weathering] as well as Tim Easter is a moot point, but I see no reason why not. Tim is a most-accomplished modeller but the requisite skills can be learnt".

Just to point out that a great course on weathering, due to take place this weekend at Hobby Holidays, has had to be cancelled/postponed due to lack of interest. It was also Mr Shackleton that was due to lead it. I went on one of these a few years back and it was brilliant.

Just saying that this is an opportunity missed and that the Hobby Hols site is worth a visit every so often to check on courses/workshops.

Phil  

 

There's a ready-built PDK kit of 60506 on eBay at the moment.

What section St?

Phil

[Flood]

What section St?

Phil

 

Just type in 60506 and A2. It found the listing straight away.

 

Model has original V cab, firebox and boiler but has a late crest . I think I'll stick with the one I've got  .

[mark54]

From photographic evidence, Kitchen Cars in ECML sets were either Thompson or Mk.1s. The car in question (the prototype that is) was built in 1939 and, I believe, worked principally in Scotland. Does anyone know for certain, please? My painting of it is really supposition, assuming such a late-built Gresley car would survive long enough to be painted maroon. 

 

How will I use it? In an empty stock rake, because it's such a handsome vehicle (it just is, not because I built/painted it). Unless someone makes me an offer...............

Tony, 9199 was allocated to the Scottish Area/Region so should really be SC9199E I think. This was a Anthracite-Electric car. There were also 3 gas cars - 9163/4/5 to the same basic design built in 1937 and allocated to the NE Area/Region. E9164E is seen in 2 of Robert Carroll's photos at Newcastle Central in the 1960s. It was withdrawn near the end of 1965 so outliving many of the early Mk1 kitchen cars.

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/robertcwp/3700371655/in/album-72157603653607671/

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/robertcwp/3700371475/in/album-72157603653607671/

 

Mark Jenkins

[lanchester]

Tony, 9199 was allocated to the Scottish Area/Region so should really be SC9199E I think. This was a Anthracite-Electric car. There were also 3 gas cars - 9163/4/5 to the same basic design built in 1937 and allocated to the NE Area/Region. E9164E is seen in 2 of Robert Carroll's photos at Newcastle Central in the 1960s. It was withdrawn near the end of 1965 so outliving many of the early Mk1 kitchen cars.

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/robertcwp/3700371655/in/album-72157603653607671/

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/robertcwp/3700371475/in/album-72157603653607671/

 

Mark Jenkins

Noting the Type 2 on the front, and just guessing wildly, would this have been one of the Boat trains for Tyne Commission Quay? To connect with Bergen/Fred Olsen lines? When I was still in short trousers they used to be taken down by V1/V3 tanks, but mostly Type 2s later, as memory serves.

[Willie Whizz]

Good evening Malcolm,

 

Thanks for the kind comment. 

 

Fixing the replacement bodies to the underframe is quite simple, really. It has to be because I thought of it!

 

Hornby Gresley coach conversion 29.jpg

 

It can be done in one of two ways. Like this, using 8BA screws (green) passing through appropriate holes in the floor pan (red). Brass stretchers are soldered both ends with the screws soldered through them.

 

Hornby Gresley coach conversion 41.jpg

 

Then 8BA nuts hold the two components together.

 

Hornby Gresley coach conversion 34.jpg

 

Or 8BA nuts can be soldered to the tops of the stretchers (green,) not the bottoms, otherwise they'll foul the pan, again with appropriate holes drilled through the floor pan (red).

 

Hornby Gresley coach conversion 35.jpg

 

The pan is then secured with 8BA screws. 

 

Using the former method, the screw must not protrude too far, otherwise it fouls the bogie. It's wise to make the holes about 6BA in size, to allow for adjustment, fitting a washer when completely happy with the fit.

 

Any interior detail is glued to the floor pan. 

 

Subsequent removal of the body is dead easy; take off the bogies, undo the nuts or screws and the thing comes apart. 

 

Hornby Gresley coach conversion 60.jpg

 

Even though Hornby might do a carriage you need, it's better (in my view) to replace the sides anyway, because the shape is all wrong at source. Note how much better the shape of the tumbleholme is on the brass-sided example (centre) compared with the Hornby original (left).

 

I hope this helps.

 

Thanks Tony, that's really helpful and clear.

 

Getting that tumblehome to look right is going to be 'fun' I suspect, but I'll practice on a bit of scrap brass first i think.  All part of getting myself back up the learning curve after a long lay-off from modelling ...

 

Kind regards

 

Malcolm

[davidw]

Following Headstock's request, and the sun being out today, I have taken some photos of the re-sided coaches to run behind the A2/2. Incidentally the service modelled is the Winter 1958-9, 9.25 a.m. Peterborough - Kings Cross. This used the stock of a Cambridge set to run from Kings Cross to Peterborough at 7.21 p.m. to then run back to Kings Cross the next morning.

 

Construction of the BSKs was originally as suggested by Coachmann by replacing the sides and narrowing the chassis. In the end I used Comet chassis' as they were the correct width with the headstocks and buffers coming from the Hornby model (the headstocks being suitably shortened in length). The original Hornby bogies were used by having the clip section sawn off, a hole drilled through the centre and secured with nuts to an 8 BA screw extending through the Comet floor.

 

The FK was originally having just new sides and a detailed Bachmann chassis. After reading about the roof being so incorrect I bought an MJT roof, sawed off the ends of the Bachmann coach and then filed the Bachmann roof off the ends until the MJT roof fitted. In hindsight it would have been easier just buying a full Comet coach kit. The moulded Bachmann battery boxes were carefully cut out from between the trussing and new MJT battery boxes inserted.

 

I have found two photos of one of the BSKs after the brass sides had been fitted to the roof and ends.

 

Gresley BTK (1).JPG

 

Gresley BTK (2).JPG

 

Nearest the loco is BSK E16485E. This was originally virtually immaculate but I wished to tone down the roof. Not having an airbrush I use rattle cans blasted against the rear wall of my spray booth (cardboard box) just above the roof of the coach so that the mist falls onto the roof below. In this instance the mist also gave the sides a considerable covering and had to be removed. It has resulted in a dirty coach which looks like a futile attempt has been made to clean it, exactly what happened in my case. Being next to the loco, and with the smoke deflectors being so ineffective, I feel I can just about justify this condition.

LNER BSK E16485E (1).JPG

 

LNER BSK E16485E (2).JPG

 

 

The Thompson FK is E11173E. Renumbered to normal stock numbers from the East Coast numbering, I felt this model was an absolute joy until I realised I had forgotton to paint the curtains in. Very frustrating, as it is glued together with contact adhesive and I don't want to take it apart and make a mess of it.

LNER FK E11173E (1).JPG

 

LNER FK E11173E (2).JPG

 

 

Finally is E16502E, another BSK. This has not had any additional weathering.

LNER BSK E16502E (1).JPG

 

LNER BSK E16502E (2).JPG

 

 

All the coaches were sprayed in Railmatch maroon but different shades of undercoat, from white to mid grey, were used. Whether this produced the subtle difference in maroon shades which I was looking for is debatable. Lining and numbers are HMRS. The original Hornby coaches were a BCK and a SK so all the commode handles are carefully extracted Hornby ones as I had enough available. I feel they really do add to the models.

 

I hope others find all this of interest.

 

Graham H

Graham - I really should have commented earlier. Those coaches are top notch!

[31A]

On the subject of coach interiors, yesterday I visited a model shop in Porthmadog that stocks Humbrol paints. There is no matt match for dark red second/third class seats that comes close. First class seats might be Humbrol 104 (matt blue) but this is also a guess on my part. Does anyone know what paints should be used for early BR era seats?

 

Edit to add, and curtains?

 

 

I saw this question a while back, but don't think it's been answered - I was reminded of it this afternoon, when I was painting some coach seats.  I use Humbrol No. 73 Matt Wine (red) for second (third) class seats, and as mentioned, 104 (Matt Oxford Blue) for first class.  I'm sure in reality patterns and colours varied, but the Parkin book on Mk1 coaches mentions red/grey moquette for third class and blue & gold for first class seats ( on page 81, quoting a Charles Roberts press release of 1955), so that's what I use and find the above paints give a nice subdued interior.  I think in 4mm scale it isn't worth bothering with the patterns!

[Tony Wright]

Tony, 9199 was allocated to the Scottish Area/Region so should really be SC9199E I think. This was a Anthracite-Electric car. There were also 3 gas cars - 9163/4/5 to the same basic design built in 1937 and allocated to the NE Area/Region. E9164E is seen in 2 of Robert Carroll's photos at Newcastle Central in the 1960s. It was withdrawn near the end of 1965 so outliving many of the early Mk1 kitchen cars.

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/robertcwp/3700371655/in/album-72157603653607671/

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/robertcwp/3700371475/in/album-72157603653607671/

 

Mark Jenkins

Thanks Mark,

 

The 'ownership' of the car can be easily altered, as can the 'Buffet' designation on the M&GNR car. They're just waterslide/Pressfix transfers and can be removed by reapplying water. 

 

The drawing suggests the car should be 9199, because it has three heavy-duty dynamos fitted. Did the gas cars have three dynamos? Mine has. 

 

Off at a tangent, what pleases me most about this thread is the information folk are prepared to post regarding details (in this case) about carriages. Those pictures of Robert's are really quite splendid. Oddly enough, the right-hand-most window appears to be clear, yet the drawing suggests it be opaque. The Thompson equivalents had the right-hand window on the corridor side clear, but they also had the toplights clear as well. It's a simple matter to replace one glazing panel. This business of white windows on LNER stock raises many questions. The Isinglass drawings state they are 'opaque', but they let light in so I don't know what the correct description of them should be. Most Thompson cars should have white oval windows whether they serve a lavatory or not, yet pictures exist of a few with clear lights on the corridor side. I've also seen models of Gresley and Thompson stock with frosted windows, but I don't think that's right. Or is it? 

 

One thing which does concern me is the notion of folk modelling models. I've always stated that anything I make is either a layout loco or a layout coach, and should never be used as prime source material. I admit, once one starts writing about and describing how something was made there is a responsibility to make it as accurate as possible, but I've never attempted (because I can't) to build a model to 'museum' standards. If one takes that delightfully-arcane M&GNR Buffet/Restaurant Car, though I don't have more than a few pictures, no two survivors appear to be exactly the same. They were built in the earlier years of the last century and altered/rebuilt by both the LNER and BR. So, without being defensive (I hope), it now runs in the Leicester behind either a B12/3, Ivatt 4MT or the B1 and suits its purpose admirably (at least to me) as the first car in the express trundling idly towards Castle Bytham. Though it was on my display yesterday in Watford, it's really no more than a layout coach. If, as Bill Bedford suggests, it's incorrectly branded, I'll alter it. 

 

Finally, I delivered the Deltic book to Irwell on Thursday and they've already started setting it out. You and Robert are duly credited and I'll make sure you both get copies. 

Edited July 17, 2016 by Tony Wright

[Tony Wright]

Hi Tony,

 

Just a quick post, smashing looking carriages. I would be slightly wary of RB designations in CWN's, sometimes this could be a provided by another catering car offering a Buffet service only. Regarding Kitchen Cars, they often turn up in special train notices providing the catering on excursion traffic amongst others types. By the late 50s early 60s with the decline in full catering provision and that kind of traffic, they would be more likely to be languishing in sidings. Add to this the arrival of BRs own catering designs and the fate of many was sealed by the scrappers torch.

 

On a personal note, I have always found your 'layout' carriages massively inspirational in unlocking any modeling talent I may have. Hopefully, other people will have a look at what you have created and be inspired to personalise their trains with a little bit of carriage building. They don't require motorizing chassis, or valve gear, and are often mostly one colour, what could be easier than that. Off course, once the bug bites and a rake is produced then a locomotive will have to be built  to pull them. The future of modeling is assured.

Thanks Andrew,

 

With regard to making/modifying carriages (my way), I've been invited back as a tutor to Missenden Abbey next spring to explain exactly how I do them. For those who've not heard of the Missenden model railway courses, they really are brilliant sources of inspiration; with tutors such as Barry Norman, Tim Shackleton, Tony Gee, Ian Rathbone and others (and even me!) helping those who are prepared to have a go (not leaving it to others to do their modelling) then the future of personal, creative railway modelling is assured. 

[31A]

 

 

 Oddly enough, the right-hand-most window appears to be clear, yet the drawing suggests it be opaque. The Thompson equivalents had the right-hand window on the corridor side clear, but they also had the toplights clear as well. It's a simple matter to replace one glazing panel. This business of white windows on LNER stock raises many questions. The Isinglass drawings state they are 'opaque', but they let light in so I don't know what the correct description of them should be. Most Thompson cars should have white oval windows whether they serve a lavatory or not, yet pictures exist of a few with clear lights on the corridor side. I've also seen models of Gresley and Thompson stock with frosted windows, but I don't think that's right. Or is it? 

 

 

Maybe not clear glass, but BR type 'frosted' glass rather than LNER type white translucent glass?  Otherwise you'd be able to see the inside of the kitchen, rather than a reflection of the outside?

[Headstock]

Good morning Tony,

 

a couple of years ago a friend and I conducted a great deal of research into the Cafeteria Car conversions, as a by-product, other information regarding these carriages came to light. I have put in a request for further information and am awaiting a reply. However, I don't recall any of these carriages being branded Buffet. It would be perfectly acceptable to have a carriage branded Restaurant Car operating a Buffet service only, This would be your safest bet.

 

On the subject of windows, there was quite a variation in opaqueness between carriages and at different dates. For example, if you look at the screen grab below, you can see that the streamlined twin has very opaque windows while the Thompson carriage behind is almost clear. Apparently, the original Thompson carriages had a yellow tinge to the glazing, it was felt that this looked more like tobacco staining and was quickly discontinued.

 

full film available from the BFI.

http://player.bfi.org.uk/film/watch-great-north-of-scotland-railway-films-1963/

Edited July 17, 2016 by Headstock

[billbedford]

Good morning Tony,

 

a couple of years ago a friend and I conducted a great deal of research into the Cafeteria Car conversions, as a by-product, other information regarding these carriages came to light. I have put in a request for further information and am awaiting a reply. However, I don't recall any of these carriages being branded Buffet. It would be perfectly acceptable to have a carriage branded Restaurant Car operating a Buffet service only, This would be your safest bet.

 

 

I don't think this was true in general. The buffet cars were fitted with a counter, while the restaurant cars had only serving hatches.

[Headstock]

I don't think this was true in general. The buffet cars were fitted with a counter, while the restaurant cars had only serving hatches.

 

Oh it was, the type of carriage was irrelevant, talking to people who worked on these services the type of meal service provided was the defining consideration. There are plenty of examples of Restaurant cars in CWN marked down as providing Buffet service only. Two examples I can immediately think of, the afternoon Manchester express offered a Buffet service only even though the catering carriage was an RF, downgraded to RU.  Buffet services were also operated out of brake carriages marshalled in the middle of trains in some of the Starlight Specials, they had neither hatches or counters.

[mark54]

The drawing suggests the car should be 9199, because it has three heavy-duty dynamos fitted. Did the gas cars have three dynamos? Mine has. 

 

Off at a tangent, what pleases me most about this thread is the information folk are prepared to post regarding details (in this case) about carriages. Those pictures of Robert's are really quite splendid. Oddly enough, the right-hand-most window appears to be clear, yet the drawing suggests it be opaque. The Thompson equivalents had the right-hand window on the corridor side clear, but they also had the toplights clear as well. It's a simple matter to replace one glazing panel. This business of white windows on LNER stock raises many questions. The Isinglass drawings state they are 'opaque', but they let light in so I don't know what the correct description of them should be. Most Thompson cars should have white oval windows whether they serve a lavatory or not, yet pictures exist of a few with clear lights on the corridor side. I've also seen models of Gresley and Thompson stock with frosted windows, but I don't think that's right. Or is it? 

Tony, any references I can find, refer to 2 large dynamos for anthracite-electric cars. The Diagram for 9199 shows one at each end but if there was a third, it is possible it wouldn't show. 9163/4/5 had one smaller one at the staff compartment end, so probably on the kitchen side as I can't see it in Robert's photos.

 

The Diagram for 9163/4/5 indicates "ALL WINDOWS 'TRIPLEX' GLASS WITH OBSCURED INTERLAYER". So in the photo the one at the end is probably a replacement, possibly to improve the light in the corridor outside the staff compartment and staff toilet.

 

Mark Jenkins

[Tony Wright]

Many thanks for all the information regarding carriages; most interesting, entertaining and enlightening. I suppose because I've concentrated more on the making of complete trains, my approach to making individual cars has been more along the lines of 'sketchbook' modelling. Still, it's good to get details as correct as possible. 

 

Today, Bob Dawson and his grandson, Scott, brought down the island platforms station buildings they've made for me. Obviously, I'm paying Bob for this delightful work, but it's offset by my providing pictures for his portfolio. 

 

 

Pictures like this, showing the southbound Elizabethan racing through Little Bytham Station. I think this shot sums up my modelling philosophy exactly - a layout loco hauling a complete layout train passing through a layout station. Mutually-collective modelling one might say, my work and Bob's work complementing each other, or, at least I hope so. The buildings have yet to be properly bedded-down. 

 

 

They look really natural, and they're beautifully done. Thanks Bob (and Scott).

 

 

 

Another of my layout locos hauling yet another of my layout trains; fast!

 

 

 

Though the physical restraints imposed by using a 'giant' camera mean I cannot replicate the prototype view exactly, I hope this shot shows how accurate Bob's buildings are. Do you see now why I always advocate modelling a prototype?

 

Thanks to all those good friends whose work has been donated to the layout, including the lovely figures and platform barrows.

Edited July 17, 2016 by Tony Wright

[LNER4479]

Wow, Tony! Those buildings look absolutely fantastic, what a transformation. The prototype vs model photos are stunning. Great work by Bob.

 

Just one question - what was the purpose of the first storey room on the Up side? Looks like a lift shaft but that doesn't make much sense with the footbridge (unless it was a relic from pre-4 track days?).

 

Or maybe it was for locking up naughty trainspotters? ('An hour in the tower for you my lad! And no Tizer allowed!'!)

[ecgtheow]

Now that the weather is better I plan to start weathering a series of coaches outside starting with LNER Gresleys, slightly modified Hornby coaches initially & then some kit built ones. Although I have taken photos of the sides, ends & undercarriages of prototypes I haven't got any photos of weathered prototype coach roofs, so can anyone suggest where I can find some on the web, please? After the Gresleys I shall move on to other types of LNER coaches & then some LMS ones, so my request is  applicable to more or less all roofs of post 1923 coaches except GWR & SR.

 

William Jenkins