A nail in the coffin for mainline steam?

[LNERGE]

Thank you Miss Prism for putting that link up, something that was beyond me!

 

It's frightening to read in that report that in going from  'leading' to 'trailing' that rod was plunged an estimated 6 ft. into the ballast,

 

Chris

I have had recent experience of digging holes for point rodding benches at Hellifield it's about that depth one meets brother bedrock.

[JeffP]

I've read a less detailed report in "Obstruction: Danger" a book about railway accidents.

 

Apparently, the bolts used to be fitted one way round on the Brits, but, after the accident above, the were all fitted from the opposite direction.

 

Chiiling, however.

[locoholic]

I was very sad to read about the failure of Tangmere, and relieved that it hadn't led to any injuries or fatalities, as it could easily have done.. Given that similarly serious mechanical failures to paid to the main line careers of Blue Peter and Canadian Pacific, I wonder if we'll ever see Tangmere back on the main line?

[woodenhead]

What happened to Canadian Pacific?

[big jim]

i dont do farcebook but someone on another forum has linked to this video still of the moment the rod struck the live rail

 

https://touch.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=484820308299480&id=328212407293605&set=a.375104705937708.1073741825.328212407293605&source=48&ref=m_notif&notif_t=share_reply&__user=1392240464

[Fat Controller]

I've read a less detailed report in "Obstruction: Danger" a book about railway accidents.

 

Apparently, the bolts used to be fitted one way round on the Brits, but, after the accident above, the were all fitted from the opposite direction.

 

Chiiling, however.

Do you mean with left-hand threads on one side and right-hand ones on the other?

[dibber25]

Ironic - there was an April fool spoof about fitting this loco with a third rail pick-up shoe.

[PhilH]

What happened to Canadian Pacific?

 

Seconded...what did happen?

 

edit..remember now, Paddock Wood, tube let go at firebox end.

 

And it was back in 2002.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

... what would have happen had the rod fully detached...

 

 

...It's frightening to read in that report that in going from  'leading' to 'trailing' that rod was plunged an estimated 6 ft. into the ballast...

 

 Fully detached, the rod goes wherever the final forces acting on it direct it. Very unlikely failure mode however, requires two pretty substantial assemblies to come apart. And the big end when in a mechanically compromised condition typically gives enough warning to the crew of its state that they will want to stop the machine pronto.

 

Historically, the small end is the one to fail, often induced by a primary failure in the slidebar assembly. One of the interesting aspects of a steam engine in locomotive use is the way the slide bar load reverses when steam is shut off, such that the wheels are now driving the connecting rod. That can mean that a crew get little or no warning of a developing failure in the elements of the slide bar assembly taking the coasting/reverse load. Galloping along at a rate of knots, shut off steam for a stop, BANG! it's let go... Generally the immediate consequences are not too bad. The large moving mass of loco and train mean that the rod gets bent through taking a load it was never designed for. All dependent on location and other circumstance though. Collateral damage could have very severe knock on consequences.

[Nimbus]

I was very sad to read about the failure of Tangmere, and relieved that it hadn't led to any injuries or fatalities, as it could easily have done.. Given that similarly serious mechanical failures to paid to the main line careers of Blue Peter and Canadian Pacific, I wonder if we'll ever see Tangmere back on the main line?

 

I'm pretty sure the occasion I turned out to see Blue Peter on the GN out of Kings Cross was after the Durham incident. A NELPG representative at Barrow Hill mentioned in conversation that willing hands to revive it from its current resting state were thin on the ground. It's probably a resource issue rather than mechanical that's keeping it off the main line.

 

The Nim.

[pointstaken]

I expect we will have our local know-nothing spouting about this in our local toilet paper.

 

Dennis

[Lady_Ava_Hay]

Seconded...what did happen?

 

edit..remember now, Paddock Wood, tube let go at firebox end.

 

And it was back in 2002.

 

erm....so you were not driving it at the time........and.........have I not seen you driving it later than 2002?...........and is it not in the 'to do' line and with an expired boiler ticket?

[PhilH]

erm....so you were not driving it at the time........and.........have I not seen you driving it later than 2002?...........and is it not in the 'to do' line and with an expired boiler ticket?

 

No.

Yes.

No. - the thing is in Eastleigh Works being stripped prior to restoration for running on the MHR. We don't do mainline any more.

[TomE]

Firstly, let's be thankful that this incident ended without injury, except maybe to a few insulator pots!

 

Secondly, let's hope there isn't a knee jerk reaction to this and that the incident is fully investigated to find the cause of the failure so as to help avoid a repeat in the future and allow the industry to learn from it. Bits falling off is not a problem unique to steam traction, but there is a tendency for them to be vilified by the TOCs when things go wrong on account of their niche market.

 

Thirdly, let's hope the guys that look after this fine machine can get her repaired and back out doing what she does best without too much trouble!

 

Tom.

[pheaton]

does this happen anywhere else or something along those lines was asked?

 

Yes 2807 on its debut run after re-entering service on the GWR suffered a centric rod failure (steam loco equivalent of a cam belt) had that fallen into the track and dug in it would have caused a lot damage in the event it was caught by the steam heat pipe (and yes I know 2800s were not fitted in service with steam heat )

 

Probably happens a lot more than we know about, but its only the serious ones that get reported.....its no different to engines and gear boxes falling off pacers.....

 

And yes being a diesel man I probably have got the rod terminology wrong.....

[11B]

Just out of interest, (and not being a Facebook user so cannot see the video link from big jim - post 43)....

 

Does any one know how fast she was going when this happened?

 

Thanks

 

Ian

[great central]

I wouldn't be too bothered about an unkempt appearance. Some years ago, when involved in Bus Maintance, we had a Ministry of Transport Examiner who too was not unduly bothered about an unkempt appearance, what bothered him was fresh paint, often with good reason. As in the Stranglers song, "Beware of the skin deep". 

 

Quite a few years ago, around the time of bus de-regulation, a 'bus war' started locally with a privately owned interloper trying to take on the established 'municipal' operator.

The interlopers buses were all old ones still in their previous operators livery, just rebranded. The MOT examiner used to meet almost every one and find some serious fault or other.

He must have missed one though because it dropped it's fuel tank in one of the main City roads at rush hour, the fixings being utterly rotten

[andyram]

At a time where there is so much talk about changes to compensation charges etc this is certainly an unfortunate incident. It is a relief that no-one was hurt. In this era of Health and Safety gone mad it could well result in serious repercusions for mainline steam. Mind you we have been here before with Blue Peter and Canadian Pacific incidents which have been mentioned previously. Let's also not forget the succession of lineside fires caused by Sir Lamiel in the recent past. Main line steam survived these as a whole, even if the locos in question have had little if nothing in the way of a main line career since. Let's hope it is not the Doomsday scenario that some have suggested!

[big jim]

Just out of interest, (and not being a Facebook user so cannot see the video link from big jim - post 43)....

 

Does any one know how fast she was going when this happened?

 

Thanks

 

Ian

im not on facebook either but can see the link in my post, its just a still of a camcorder viewfinder at the moment of impact, there is no video in the link

[Gwiwer]

The Facebook link above appears to be a still screen shot of the moment the rod contacted and shorted out the juice rail.  It looks all the more dramatic because it's dark.

 

Let's place the incident in context.  Such things happened with enough regularity on the steam railway that they barely rated a mention if no other harm was done.  The motion might have been disconnected, heaved into the tender if possible and an assisting engine used to clear the failure if required.  The road was checked and services resumed.

 

Steam is now a very uncommon event when looked at in the total railway context and the number of staff familiar at any level with its ways and foibles is correspondingly few.  Added to which we have a business-driven senior management structure where not everyone (possibly few to none these days) have worked up through ranks and know the job at grass roots level.  That does not help a decision-making process when something (anything) goes wrong.

 

We have a much busier railway where every minute of delay has to be attributed and potentially costs someone some money.  A three-hour delay to any train is a major incident whether it's damaged steam loco motion, wires down crippling the entire service or another fried Betty.  The affected operators are entitled to claim compensation for delay and disruption.  On the Waterloo - Basingstoke route there are multiple train every hour on each of the fast and slow lines all of which would have been significantly affected.

 

With due respect to the skills and knowledge of those professionally involved it simply isn't possible to diagnose a problem every time a loco seems "a bit off" or there is an unusual noise.  At rest - and assuming at that time all components were present - it might not have been apparent in any way that a failure was likely.  Steam locos are usually lovingly inspected and cared for at every opportunity.  If something had been found amiss the return leg may not have had Tangmere in charge at all.

 

We shall have to await reports and developments to see if there are any lasting consequences but it appears from accounts in the public domain that the incident was managed responsibly and in as timely a manner as the structure and decision-making process on the 21st Century railway allowed.  Yes it could have been very much worse but it wasn't.  Perhaps a bullet has been dodged.  A lot of people were later getting home than they planned (on SWT delayed services) but they got there safely.  

 

In my opinion full credit is due to all concerned for a job done as well as they reasonably could in the circumstances.  The regime under which steam operates on the main line railway is constantly being reviewed and hopefully with common sense prevailing in this case rather than a knee swiftly and unjustly applied to the groin of steam operators as a whole.

[PhilH]

 

With due respect to the skills and knowledge of those professionally involved it simply isn't possible to diagnose a problem every time a loco seems "a bit off" or there is an unusual noise.  At rest - and assuming at that time all components were present - it might not have been apparent in any way that a failure was likely.  Steam locos are usually lovingly inspected and cared for at every opportunity.

 

 

Spot on. I'm just leaving to go and work on a couple of main line registered locos fro a couple of days. The business to which I go to is a slick, well run and professional outfit - I can testify to the fact that main line engines are subject to more scrutiny, testing, care and repair than ever they were in BR days.

 

The things are cosseted beyond belief.

[Mallard60022]

OK so this happened and there were thankfully no injuries.

Are we forgetting the 'income' generated by these trains for whatever Company's tracks the thing runs over and whatever Company's Stations they stop at?

A steam ban will result in a lot of money not going to these 'receivers'.

However, I am still amazed that our beloved 'heritage' loco's are allowed out during the working week and on really busy routes at any time, but long may that last. If there is a 'rethink', then maybe some 'secondary' routes may benefit (e.g.) the Nottingham, Grantham, Lincoln, Retford, Worksop, Nottingham 'loop'? Untapped revenue IMO

P

[Xerces Fobe2]

How I dislike what the UK has become over the last decade or so! Nothing must ever go wrong and if it does OTT reactions which if publicised enough will be followed by potentially draconian restrictions/bans. Lawyers, insurance companies , acting like hungry vultures and jumping into the fray to get their mega pounds of flesh by with sky high charges and increased premiums.

 

I am not having go at the member that started this thread it is just so sad that this what our society has degenerated so much that we all understandably expect the worst now and unfortunately are often correct in our assumptions.

 

I hope that common sense prevails and this incident is seen as something that happens with a steam engine and maybe just a change to inspection routine etc, if required is the result.

 

Nigel

[Gwiwer]

In essence I agree but I sense a slight turnaround in very recent years shying away from the ambulance-chasing American model of legal intervention.  The UK has - still has - a good reputation for fair play and common sense when compared with other nations.  It is the regulatory environment in which the railway operates which brings about the occasional threat and intervention.  The lawyers at SWT might be sharpening their pencils but need to remember that had the boot been on the other foot and one of their own trains sat down for three hours delaying a charter then who would be paying whom?

[petethemole]

It seems to have caused less service disruption than the unit with a faulty collection shoe that trashed a mile or so of insulation pots in the New Forest a few months ago. Hopefully if restrictions on steam are suggested, such events could be pointed out to balance the picture.

 

Pete