Who wants a newly tooled Class 91?

[Magna Junction]

2018 wishlist now live, you can vote for Class 91 and MK4 coaches.

[G-BOAF]

vote vote vote!!!

As the A4's or Deltics of their generation, they are classics. I have no need for any, but would buy a few if produced to Class 87 standard (one in original Intercity Livery, an probably one in GNER, and a third in any 'retirement' Intercity heritage livery we see in the next couple of years, and/or maybe the BBMF one...!)

[ThaneofFife]

not for me but welcome retools of all old tooled models.   still going strong too so why not. 

[Andy Mac]

Would love to see them done, but being realistic, it’s going to be expensive. A class 91 and DVT set is going to be a good bit more expensive than say Hornby’s HST set....

[TravisM]

I would love to see a retooled Class 91 and Mk4’s as I’m modelling the present day ECML. If they did them to the same standard as the IET, I’d certainly get one, probably two sets.

[Legend]

I’d settle for some more Mk4 coaches in LNER livery . I have replayed some East Coast ones in basic red/white but the ex VTEC livery is much more complex with some gold /yellow fade and white lining.

[nathan70000]

Given that the Class 87 retails at about £174, and according to manufacturers the motor is not actually all that expensive, I'd put a 2018-spec DCC ready Class 91+DVT set at around £320. That's before you start adding on coaches, let's say they're £50 each, that's £420 for a basic 4-part set. I think it's a Catch-22 situation given that there is a (not actually that bad for it's age) Class 91/Mk4 set already available and these days I can't see enough people shelling out for the more expensive version for Hornby to make a return on their investment.

 

Furthermore- I don't think I've ever seen a Class 91 on an exhibition layout. I think it's pitched at the train set end of the market like the Pendolino and I can't see a swath of post-1988 ECML layouts materialising in the wake of a new version.

Edited November 10, 2018 by nathan70000

[DaveClass47]

Given that the Class 87 retails at about £174, and according to manufacturers the motor is not actually all that expensive, I'd put a 2018-spec DCC ready Class 91+DVT set at around £320. That's before you start adding on coaches, let's say they're £50 each, that's £420 for a basic 4-part set. I think it's a Catch-22 situation given that there is a (not actually that bad for it's age) Class 91/Mk4 set already available and these days I can't see enough people shelling out for the more expensive version for Hornby to make a return on their investment.

 

Furthermore- I don't think I've ever seen a Class 91 on an exhibition layout. I think it's pitched at the train set end of the market like the Pendolino and I can't see a swath of post-1988 ECML layouts materialising in the wake of a new version.

Hi

 

I think there is a market for the for a new 91,MK4 coaches and MK4 DVT.

 

There is a lack of class 91's on the exhibition circuit.   Maybe because the current model is so unimpressive and dated no one has one.  It is 30 years old.   The appearance of the coaches is 'ok' but the loco is a toy.  The motor is so basic and noisy.   Its not a good model at all.  

 

Lack of exposure of the loco at shows may, I think it has something to do with up until now the infrastructure to add masts etc has been limited.  That is all changing with the arrival of the Peco masts and wires, and also with the Dapol plastic masts. Even ScaleModelScenery has recently added masts etc to its range.  More people are turning to AC Electric's.   Hence this has been picked up by Hornby and Bachmann with the new 87 and forthcoming 90.   Natural progression would suggest a new 91 is on the way, and perhaps an improved 86? 

 

As for prices for a full rake of these 91's and coaches.    The argument about it being too expensive to allow a return for the investment is perhaps, with respect to your comment not entirely accurate.   Hornby product the HST (retails at £225ish), MK3 coaches (retail at about £31), so a full rake of those with power cars is well over £450.  But they sell, and sell well!   If the model is good and relevant then it will sell.

 

The Class 87 does not sell for £174 (that's its RRP).   I got mine for £130.   The coaches would not retail for £50....more like £35-40.  You use the RRP price of £174 for the 87.   No one sells it at that.  So lets say for arguments sake the new class 91/DVT pack sells for £230, each coach is £35   That's a rake for just a bit more than an HST and rake.   Remembering a full 9 coach train (and who really has the layout to fit that on??).  

 

Bachmann sell their MK2F coaches in DCC for (retail) of £67ish.   People are buying them.   So surely a MK4 coach would sell for half of that price.   A rake of 8 MK2F from Bachmann sets you back over £500 and that's without a loco!!

 

The Class 91 and rolling stock has now seen 30 years of front line service and is wearing its 4th livery.  Soon to become more as they are cascaded to other operators when displaced from the ECML.   So there will be a market there to tap into for the manufacturer who takes on this new project.

 

I for one hope they do retool this iconic east coast machine.   Every other east coast icon is modelled to modern standards.   I hope its the 91's turn soon.  Time will tell lol.

[Steamport Southport]

Any naysayers need to look at the Wishlist Poll....

 

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/139197-results-the-wishlist-poll-2018/&do=findComment&comment=3360683

 

 

 

 

Jason

[TravisM]

Maybe with 91119 now being reliveried into the original Inter City “Swallow” scheme, that might give some impetus into Hornby or another manufacturer into a high end model. If they don’t, those with the original release are going to suddenly see them go up in value on that certain internet auction site lol

Edited November 11, 2018 by jools1959

[adb968008]

Any naysayers need to look at the Wishlist Poll....

 

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/139197-results-the-wishlist-poll-2018/&do=findComment&comment=3360683

 

 

 

 

Jason

It’s only a difference of 5 votes between those wanting the class 89 and those of the class 91.

Tooling a 91 on its jack jones isn’t going to satisfy many, so it needs 4 other toolings to make it work (SO/FO/Buffet/DVT).

Class 89, whilst more niche, at least allows people to run it with existing Mk3’s, HST sets, the BN FO mk1 Intercity set, railtour Mk1/2 sets, including Pilkington, Maroon mk1, ( Sloa Pullman ?) sets and various test train combinations as well as ECML and WCML bias.

Edited November 11, 2018 by adb968008

[frobisher]

Tooling a 91 on its jack jones isn’t going to satisfy many, so it needs 4 other toolings to make it work (SO/FO/Buffet/DVT).

It's 5 as you need the TSOE as well which is different from the TSO in that it has buffers, drop head buckeye and Pullman rubbing plate and no gangway connection. I don't think Hornby ever modelled that did they? (Farish did, I think, at least a semi effort was made).

[adb968008]

It's 5 as you need the TSOE as well which is different from the TSO in that it has buffers, drop head buckeye and Pullman rubbing plate and no gangway connection. I don't think Hornby ever modelled that did they? (Farish did, I think, at least a semi effort was made).

Just pushes it further into remoteness.

 

Has any tooling of 6 different vehicles (5 + loco) been made to model a single relatively fixed formation train to date ?

Even the Blue Pullman and Brighton Belle have less unique vehicles.

Edited November 11, 2018 by adb968008

[TravisM]

I would say three and a half vehicles need to be created. Firstly the DVT, then the FO, TSO, TSOD as I believe they are effectively the same body shape and number of windows. For the TSOE, just fit the blunt end at assembly instead of the corridor connection and lastly the RB.

 

I’m sure there are detail differences between the different passenger vehicles but I think these can be created at time of assembly.

[ash39]

Just pushes it further into remoteness.

 

Has any tooling of 6 different vehicles (5 + loco) been made to model a single relatively fixed formation train to date ?

Even the Blue Pullman and Brighton Belle have less unique vehicles.

 

Both those models went into production, and have a far more restricted area of operation than the 91/mk4's do?

[Pete the Elaner]

It is not so much a case of people wanting a model, but whether a manufacturer believes they will sell.

 

91/Mk4s are due to run on the WCML from next autumn, so a change of livery will give you something which can run alongside a Pendolino, Voyager & 350. Will this increase their sales potential or, like most, will their popularity increase once they start to be replaced by something less well-liked.

This last point may well even be under consideration by a manufacturer right now.

[adb968008]

It is not so much a case of people wanting a model, but whether a manufacturer believes they will sell.

 

91/Mk4s are due to run on the WCML from next autumn, so a change of livery will give you something which can run alongside a Pendolino, Voyager & 350. Will this increase their sales potential or, like most, will their popularity increase once they start to be replaced by something less well-liked.

This last point may well even be under consideration by a manufacturer right now.

HSTs will go first, they are noisier, more well travelled, and the fan base is growing.

 

That said, if they chuck out several liveries and they sell. Why upgrade the tooling.

[Pete the Elaner]

 

That said, if they chuck out several liveries and they sell. Why upgrade the tooling.

I totally agree with that.

What is wrong with the current 91? I have never read any complaints about its dimensions, so it should be possible to bring it up to scratch with some detailing & re-motoring. Robf's photos a few posts earlier in this thread show what can be done.

 

On the other hand, Hornby could have kept the ex-Lima 87 in production but they chose to bring out an entirely new model.

[MGR Hooper!]

I totally agree with that.

What is wrong with the current 91? I have never read any complaints about its dimensions, so it should be possible to bring it up to scratch with some detailing & re-motoring. Robf's photos a few posts earlier in this thread show what can be done.

 

On the other hand, Hornby could have kept the ex-Lima 87 in production but they chose to bring out an entirely new model.

Not that I disagree with this post, but the current Hornby Class 91 has left a lot to be desired detail wise. The most recent release of it only had an upgraded motor, wheels and a DCC socket. But other than that the Class 91 lacks a lot of the finer detail we come to expect these days. It is IMHO one of the least detailed models available today.

 

Detailing it up is obviously and option but there's a clear lack of detail kits for it. My Class 90 detailing kit has been a huge success, but I am reluctant to do a Class 91 kit because getting a hold of a new one isn't cheap and if I do it I'd love to have kits done for the mk4 DVT and mk4 coaches as well.

[MGR Hooper!]

I'm still quite surprise at how high the Class 91 scored, along with the Class 89. I hope Heljan think about doing the Class 89 after they release their re-tooled Class 86. And I also hope Hornby do the Class 91 with some brand new mk4 coaches and a DVT. I think costs on tooling can be saved tremendously if they're smart about it and design the slides such.

Edited November 14, 2018 by MGR Hooper!

[reevesthecat]

I was also surprised where the 91 and 89 polled and wonder where the 88 would have come given the option.

Mark

[159220]

Has the Wishlist Poll been announced? I have not seen any link to the results? Where is it hidden here?

[reevesthecat]

It's in the modelling musings part of the forum

Mark

[MGR Hooper!]

Has the Wishlist Poll been announced? I have not seen any link to the results? Where is it hidden here?

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/139197-results-the-wishlist-poll-2018/

[brushman47544]

It's 5 as you need the TSOE as well which is different from the TSO in that it has buffers, drop head buckeye and Pullman rubbing plate and no gangway connection. I don't think Hornby ever modelled that did they? (Farish did, I think, at least a semi effort was made).

 

I dare say that the different end of TSOE could be done as part of the tooling options, so avoided a fifth separate coach being tooled. Whilst a 91 plus Mk4s doesn't interest me at all, it does stand out as crying for new version. The 85 and 87 were to all intents and purposes WCML locos, so what's the difference with the 91 being ECML only? And as long as they do get cascaded elsewhere, they will still be in use when any new versions arrive. If left for too long, however, and they are all withdrawn from main line service then I would question the financial case for retooling.

 

As for the 89, an obvious basket-case.....except that other one-offs such as Lion, Kestrel, Falcon and DP2 have all sold. Something for Heljan I suspect.

 

But before any of them, surely a new 86 correct for the 1960s-80s (with and without flexicoil suspension) should be first in line.