Driving standards

[PhilJ W]

My cars fog lights have separate switches for front and rear. If they are left on a buzzer sounds when the ignition key is removed.

Edited January 15, 2022 by PhilJ W

[Dunsignalling]

2 hours ago, boxbrownie said:

But the dipswitch (headlamp flash) works when light switch is off…….it does on every vehicle I know of.

Yes, but on VAG cars it latches if the headlights are on, and doesn't if they aren't, thereby giving confirmation of what state the Auto is in.

 

John

Edited January 15, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[boxbrownie]

2 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

Yes, but on VAG cars it latches if the headlights are on, and doesn't if they aren't, thereby giving confirmation of what state the Auto is in.

 

John

Aha I see what you meant now, rather than the short indication you get the warning symbol permanently on, I always used to leave the Audi Q3 lights on auto regardless, as I do all with auto lights providing I have satisfied myself they come on and off at the appropriate light levels.

[PhilJ W]

Found on You Tube.

 

[Reorte]

7 hours ago, boxbrownie said:

Unfortunately all the research finds otherwise, which is why they are mandated.

Enough of a difference to justify mandating, in the real world? Or is this a case of concentrating on limited factors ("can you see the lights?" and nothing more than that), or where people aren't turning lights on where they should, and for just how much gain?

 

Some changes seem meaningful, e.g. when the extra brake light came in. Others start to seem like an over-reaction; I remain utterly unconvinced about a significant level of real-world difference.

Edited January 15, 2022 by Reorte

[boxbrownie]

6 minutes ago, Reorte said:

Enough of a difference to justify mandating, in the real world? Or is this a case of concentrating on limited factors ("can you see the lights?" and nothing more than that), or where people aren't turning lights on where they should, and for just how much gain?

Quite few very long reports.

 

But just from the Gov.U.K. Legislation docs.

 

“Research has shown that DRLs are likely to reduce multiple vehicle daytime accidents and fatalities by up to 6% once all vehicles are equipped. DRL are likely to result in a small increase in fuel consumption and CO² emissions of around 0.5% but this is expected to be lower when LEDs are used in place of filament light sources.”

[Reorte]

So take it a bit further - are we talking daytime but when conditions are murky enough that it would make sense to have dipped lights on for example? Are we talking about pulling out of a side road "I just didn't see the car!" type accidents? Frequently they give the impression that the problem was that the sight of another car simply didn't register, not that it couldn't be seen.

 

Mind you they're not as annoying as very bight strobing bike lights. Flashing lights on bikes seemed reasonable when they weren't very bright, now they can be as bright as headlights I find them a real menace if they're flashing away.

 

[Titan]

12 hours ago, Reorte said:

So take it a bit further - are we talking daytime but when conditions are murky enough that it would make sense to have dipped lights on for example? Are we talking about pulling out of a side road "I just didn't see the car!" type accidents? Frequently they give the impression that the problem was that the sight of another car simply didn't register, not that it couldn't be seen.

 

Mind you they're not as annoying as very bight strobing bike lights. Flashing lights on bikes seemed reasonable when they weren't very bright, now they can be as bright as headlights I find them a real menace if they're flashing away.

 

 

The result of a very carefully undertaken series of studies sufficiently diligently undertaken to yield  accurate results that I saw IIRC is that if all cars were fitted with DRL there would be a 10% reduction in road accidents, particularly with regards to pedestrian collisions.

Edited January 16, 2022 by Titan

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Reorte said:

Mind you they're not as annoying as very bight strobing bike lights. Flashing lights on bikes seemed reasonable when they weren't very bright, now they can be as bright as headlights I find them a real menace if they're flashing away.

 

 

I have dash cam footage from a couple of days ago where a van nearly hits a cyclist even though he had flashing lights and a hi viz. Maybe they need to flash brighter. 

[Dunsignalling]

1 minute ago, 30801 said:

 

I have dash cam footage from a couple of days ago where a van nearly hits a cyclist even though he had flashing lights and a hi viz. Maybe they need to flash brighter. 

Or maybe the van driver needs to look where he's going?

[Reorte]

Just now, Dunsignalling said:

Or maybe the van driver needs to look where he's going?

This is the point - sometimes things simply don't seem to register with people; the problem isn't that they're not sufficiently visible. There's a well-known example (not driving related) where people are asked to count the number of passes made in a video of a basketball game (think it was that, that sort of idea at any rate). And afterwards they were asked - what about the guy in a gorilla suit who came running on to the pitch? A significant number of people never even noticed him, with their concentration on counting the passes.

 

DRLs have been around on a large proportion of cars for several years now, the difference should be there in the numbers although as always it'll be hard to pick out from other factors.

[PaulCheffus]

8 hours ago, Reorte said:

Pretty sure I can turn them on independently on my Astra. IIRC my previous car, you could only turn the rears on if the fronts were on, something I always found pointless because I never found the fronts much use and the legal requirement is only for a rear one.

Hi

 

You certainly can on mine (Astra) but in the six years I’ve had the car I’ve only used them once.

 

Cheers

 

Paul

[boxbrownie]

32 minutes ago, Reorte said:

So take it a bit further - are we talking daytime but when conditions are murky enough that it would make sense to have dipped lights on for example? Are we talking about pulling out of a side road "I just didn't see the car!" type accidents? Frequently they give the impression that the problem was that the sight of another car simply didn't register, not that it couldn't be seen.

 

Mind you they're not as annoying as very bight strobing bike lights. Flashing lights on bikes seemed reasonable when they weren't very bright, now they can be as bright as headlights I find them a real menace if they're flashing away.

 

Most of the research was taken during daylight hours, hence why they call the daylight running lights……there would be little point in research into DRL at night or evening/morning conditions when normal lamps should be used.

And as you surmise they are very useful for the very type of “I didn’t see the car” conditions. The brighter DRL help register the vehicle with the brain rather than it merging into the general road scenery.

 

Have to agree with you on some of those bike lights, some are so bright they actually dazzle and there is no legislation as far as I know regarding them.

[jcm@gwr]

3 minutes ago, boxbrownie said:

Most of the research was taken during daylight hours, hence why they call the daylight running lights……there would be little point in research into DRL at night or evening/morning conditions when normal lamps should be used.

And as you surmise they are very useful for the very type of “I didn’t see the car” conditions. The brighter DRL help register the vehicle with the brain rather than it merging into the general road scenery.

 

Have to agree with you on some of those bike lights, some are so bright they actually dazzle and there is no legislation as far as I know regarding them.

 

Trouble is, that bright lights stand out, until every car has them, then the effect is diminished,

and the advantage lost!

[Reorte]

Just now, boxbrownie said:

Most of the research was taken during daylight hours, hence why they call the daylight running lights……there would be little point in research into DRL at night or evening/morning conditions when normal lamps should be used.

I meant those daylight times when conditions aren't great - murky, drizzly, gloomy, where most people turned on their headlights even though it was daytime. Better to have dipped lights on anyway then, so that the lights are on on the back, especially if there's spray involved too.

 

Quote

And as you surmise they are very useful for the very type of “I didn’t see the car” conditions. The brighter DRL help register the vehicle with the brain rather than it merging into the general road scenery.

 

That's the part I'm actually somewhat sceptical about, since I don't think it is all about merging in to the scenery but, for some reason, the brain not registering something that is perfectly visible. It happens, particularly if someone's just going through the motions, or not even bothering to look at all but relying on something to just catch their attention (neither of which should be happening but that's people for you). The gorilla suit example demonstrates that it can happen quite easily if concentration is diverted elsewhere. I'm moving in to speculation territory now so there's obviously a big pinch of salt involved, but I wouldn't find it hard to imagine someone might fixate on one vehicle and then pull out in to the path of the next one not because the next one wasn't sufficiently visible, but because they'd been directing too much of their concentration at a single place.

 

Quote

Have to agree with you on some of those bike lights, some are so bright they actually dazzle and there is no legislation as far as I know regarding them.

IIRC the law was changed quite a while back to allow them (not unreasonably), and hasn't caught up with the fact that bright lights that don't drain the battery in five minutes are possible and commonplace now.

[boxbrownie]

53 minutes ago, jcm@gwr said:

 

Trouble is, that bright lights stand out, until every car has them, then the effect is diminished,

and the advantage lost!

Until all the surrounding road infrastructure starts using DRL it’s not lost at all, the saving of road deaths is predicted to become greater when all vehicles use DRL.

[boxbrownie]

51 minutes ago, Reorte said:

I meant those daylight times when conditions aren't great - murky, drizzly, gloomy, where most people turned on their headlights even though it was daytime. Better to have dipped lights on anyway then, so that the lights are on on the back, especially if there's spray involved too.

 

 

That's the part I'm actually somewhat sceptical about, since I don't think it is all about merging in to the scenery but, for some reason, the brain not registering something that is perfectly visible. It happens, particularly if someone's just going through the motions, or not even bothering to look at all but relying on something to just catch their attention (neither of which should be happening but that's people for you). The gorilla suit example demonstrates that it can happen quite easily if concentration is diverted elsewhere. I'm moving in to speculation territory now so there's obviously a big pinch of salt involved, but I wouldn't find it hard to imagine someone might fixate on one vehicle and then pull out in to the path of the next one not because the next one wasn't sufficiently visible, but because they'd been directing too much of their concentration at a single place.

 

IIRC the law was changed quite a while back to allow them (not unreasonably), and hasn't caught up with the fact that bright lights that don't drain the battery in five minutes are possible and commonplace now.

You may remain sceptical, it’s your prerogative.

[Jonboy]

1 hour ago, 30801 said:

 

I have dash cam footage from a couple of days ago where a van nearly hits a cyclist even though he had flashing lights and a hi viz. Maybe they need to flash brighter. 

I had one bright light flashing and another static each on front and back when I did a daily commute by bike. A motorist missed me by inches and wound down the window to shout how I should have lights on my bike….

[Guest]

1 hour ago, boxbrownie said:

Have to agree with you on some of those bike lights, some are so bright they actually dazzle and there is no legislation as far as I know regarding them.

 

IIRC British Standards for bike lights are stuck at the Ever Ready lamp powered by two D cells.

If you want a modern light that conforms to some sort of standard those standards will probhably be US ones. You can of course buy lights from China that pump out colossal lumens in whatever beam pattern (or lack of) they feel like.

[big jim]

2 hours ago, 30801 said:

 

I have dash cam footage from a couple of days ago where a van nearly hits a cyclist even though he had flashing lights and a hi viz. Maybe they need to flash brighter. 

wasn’t me was it? 
 

(on the bike, not in the van!)

 

 

 

Edited January 15, 2022 by big jim

[PhilJ W]

Most of the street lights locally have been replaced with LED lights. Despite all their advantages one drawback is that they seem to create dark shadows that can hide a pedestrian or cyclist, especially if they are wearing dark clothing. Not a problem but one peculiar effect is beyond a certain distance in front they become invisible whereas more conventional lighting would be clearly seen. Revival of the 'Wear something light at night' campaign would  help. 

[Michael Hodgson]

3 hours ago, 30801 said:

 

IIRC British Standards for bike lights are stuck at the Ever Ready lamp powered by two D cells.

 

 

They used something called U2 batteries when I had a push bike.

[Enterprisingwestern]

10 hours ago, Titan said:

 

The statistic I saw IIRC is that if all cars were fitted with DRL there would be a 10% reduction in road accidents, particularly with regards to pedestrian collisions.

 

A statistic I saw IIRC said that if all cars were fitted with an attentive, considerate, thoughtful and well educated driver there would be a larger than 10% reduction in road accidents.

Statistics mean nothing.

 

Mike.

[TheQ]

On 15/01/2022 at 05:43, rockershovel said:

Not really a "driving standards" issue, but spending a few nights driving round the Norwich area has been thoroughly unpleasant. 

 

Complex  junctions involving multiple roundabouts, a random scatter of road closures  and thoroughly filthy weather - cold, wet  and foggy. Roads very dirty so markings are illegible and a proliferation of variegated road lamps casting a baleful glare through the murk. 

 

Nasty. 

I do hope you enjoyed the stupid way they built the NDR / A1270/ Broadland Northway or whatever they want to call it 

[Titan]

2 hours ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

A statistic I saw IIRC said that if all cars were fitted with an attentive, considerate, thoughtful and well educated driver there would be a larger than 10% reduction in road accidents.

Statistics mean nothing.

 

Mike.

 

Seeing as the word "statistic" seems to trouble you so much, I have edited my post to more accurately describe the situation.  However despite it's accuracy, I am sure you will try and find a way to dismiss it so you can justify your view to yourself.  And your counter argument is useless, as to use it to justify not implementing a safety measure would result in all previous safety measures that have saved thousands of lives not being implemented, on the grounds that a solution that is impossible to  implement and would therefore never happen would be better.

Edited January 16, 2022 by Titan