Scaleforum 2015 - 19/20 September

[Horsetan]

..... sweaty bearpit that is Warley!

 

Maybe they could rename the show "Ex-Pong"? 

[Bulwell Hall]

There was an EM gauge loco in the display case on Saturday and a HO loco running on the test track on the Sunday - is this a pointer to the future?  A 4mm finescale show encompassing all disiplines?  It may come to that as prices rise and demographics run thier course.

[Horsetan]

There was .... a HO loco running on the test track on the Sunday - is this a pointer to the future?  .....

 

 

There'll be two such engines running next year!!!! #überreichsbahnscheint

[DerekEm8]

David BR wrote

 

In contrast, I was at Expo EM North last week which really was quiet, parking being a nightmare as there were 6 football matches on the Saturday at the venue.  The show was all but dead for most of the afternoon.  Sunday, was a better day but still not particularly busy.  The contrast with Scaleforum was chalk and cheese.  I would not be inclined to go again to that EM exhibition unless I lived much closer, there was better parking availability and I had nothing better to do.

 

I would suggest a better explanation to the circumstances facts arising at ExpoEM North on Saturday morning might be in order.

The venue is jointly owned by Trafford Leisure/ Broadoak School (the Leisureand Centre) and Manchester United Trust (the football pitches)   There were but 2 (TWO) matches on Saturday morning (unbeknown to the organisers) Manchester United U17 and U12 ladies were playing Liverpool U17/ U12 ladies. That brought in Aunts,Uncles ,Mums,Dads and everyone else who knew the ladies playing.. 

Would the parking at Scaleforum have coped if Arsenal Ladies had been playing Chelsea Ladies at the same Venue with the matches starting before Scaleforum opening time.

This will not arise next year as we are back to our old venue The George H. Carnall Leisure Centre, Kingsway Park, Daveyhulme, Manchester. M41 7FJ after our enforced move to Partington this year.

[Kenton]

 

Not sure where you get that second sentence from Kenton

Check what I was replying to.

 

I am not saying that if one is interested in P4 AND one makes the effort to engage (especially by JOINING the society) new members and help with P4 is lacking. But I am suggesting that by not being open to all (and yes, that might include a expo name change) P4 is a very closed shop - it simply is not inviting everyone to try it out.

 

I also accept that going in with P4 at the very start is a big ask and most will probably start with Peco track and then become interested in P4 by visiting a show where it is displayed and then perhaps actually join the society.

[The Stationmaster]

I would hate to see Scalefourum rebranded but I just wonder why some of the general model railway visitors I see at more general shows not a million miles away do not attend Scalefourum, is it that they see it as something that does not interest them.

 

It is a largest show with layouts and traders just like any other show. It is called Scalefourum I don't think the wording Model railway exhibition appears in any adverts and maybe that is the issue in attracting the more general visitor.

I can see what you're saying David, and what Chrisf has also said and you're right and so in some respects is Kenton.  Scaleforum does click on my radar because of the name - and yet it is very clear from this thread that there are traders there who would meet my needs as well as some very nice folk who I happen to know.

 

So why don't I/didn't I go?  The venue is excellent, it's a reasonable drive from home especially on a Sunday morning, the parking is handy (if you arrive at the right time) and the cost isn't exhorbitant although it's not cheap.  So the only reason I can thing of for not going is not knowing enough (anything?) about what to expect and whether or not it would suit me.  This thread suggests it probably would.  I don't worry to much about the name but presenting what it offers beyond the name might awaken my interest - there seems to be a need to better promote (horrible word) what lies behind the name.

[Captain Kernow]

Thank you for talking down Expo EM North.

 

What you omitted to mention was that Expo was in a one off venue for this year only.....the normal venue does not have the nightmare car parking of the Saturday, which was dire I agree, Sunday being much better.

I hope you have a better show next time. I think it's a pity that some found it necessary to criticise.

[davidbr]

Thank you for talking down Expo EM North.

 

What you omitted to mention was that Expo was in a one off venue for this year only.....the normal venue does not have the nightmare car parking of the Saturday, which was dire I agree, Sunday being much better.

Thank you for clarifying the temporary nature of the venue.  I was not aware of this.  I was not 'talking down' ExpoEM North but speaking as I found.  There is a comparison to be made between the shows but, in the light of the comment about the temporary nature of the venue and assurance that there is plenty of parking at the usual venue, my comment on that aspect is clearly not representative and should be ignored.

[Kempenfelt]

I had to think twice before commenting on this thread but decided to express my opinion!

 

Firstly I would like to thank all the organiser's and volunteers for putting on yet another excellent show, Scaleforum is one of those dates that goes straight into my diary as one of my most favoured modelling events during the year.

 

Scaleforum is one of those events that to me is not just a day out to look at a few layouts, it is a friendly and supportive social event which extends to both the Friday and Saturday evenings as well as opening hours of the show. It is specifically these elements that to me makes it far more than a public attraction in which to occupy a few hours of an afternoon, and instead a real sence of community which is worth far more than the subs I pay and why I am a member of the Scalefour society in the first place.

 

I don't find the suggestion that this may be the last Scaleforum construtive. This statement has been made on pure speculation from one persons opinion, yet could quite easily become hearsay that show is not to continue. How can this statement be made by mid afternoon on the first day of any show, uninformed and lacking factual information before any idea of final visitor numbers and firm costs are actually known!? This kind of talk can really affect a show far more than people realise, as some people may take this information as fact and believe a show isn't taking place or may be a shadow of its former self.

 

I was in attendance at the show this year assisting a trader and despite peoples oppinions that the show was quiet, I can confirm that this wasn't reflected in sales for the weekend.

 

As for the comments of the lack of crowding and open spaces, I actually found this quite pleasant. I’m sure had it of been the other way round that we would have heard about the lack of parking, the lack of the seating, the temperature of the hall, the quality of the catering, the fact that the crowd didn’t part to give me front row seats at a particular layout at a time that suited me best, etc, etc, etc………………………………I’ve always been somewhat dissapointed at the lack of positive feedback on exhibition threads. I’m sure the majority oppinion from every show I’ve had the fortune of being able to attend would have come away which a much more rosy outcome, I know I have, otherwise I for one wouldn’t be in this hobby!

 

As Rod has mentioned, the Scalefour Society does not suggest that it is a "show piece for scale 4mm finer scale modelling". Fine scale modelling can be inherrent in any of the many scales and gauges out there. Likewise "finer scale modelling" suggests it is trying to be something better than something else, again this is not what P4 is that would suggest you have to meet a certain ability to be able to qualify! I didn't join the society because I felt I'd earn't enough skill points to graduate from another scale, infact I went straight to P4 when begining to model because I felt it could help me develope my skills more in the areas that I wanted to develope them. What the society does is to promote a specific set of standards which is very different. It just so happens that some of the modellers I most admired, model/have modelled to these standards as well. This admiration is not exclusive either and extends to other gauges and scales, as well as extending to others disciplines outside of railways.

 

For those commenting on the cost of a model railway show, please consider the costs to those who volunteer, demonstrate, exhibit, trade, organise etc. The costs to us are far greater than those who attend as a regular punter, and without the efforts of those we wouldn't have any shows to enjoy. £9 might be more expensive than a similar show you went to a few years back, however I'm sure its extremely reasonable IMHO when compared to other recreational activites such as a national trust property visit or the cinema.

 

Members of DRAG, I must congratulate you on an excellent display! Seeing the regeneration of Bodmin the 2nd imparticular I found very interesting. Good luck with the continuation of this project!

 

Look forward to seeing many of you once again at next years Scaleforum!

 

 

Best Wishes

 

 

Paul

[10800]

  Check what I was replying to.

 

I am not saying that if one is interested in P4 AND one makes the effort to engage (especially by JOINING the society) new members and help with P4 is lacking. But I am suggesting that by not being open to all (and yes, that might include a expo name change) P4 is a very closed shop - it simply is not inviting everyone to try it out.

 

I also accept that going in with P4 at the very start is a big ask and most will probably start with Peco track and then become interested in P4 by visiting a show where it is displayed and then perhaps actually join the society.

 

I did, and have done again, and I'm still none the wiser as to where that second sentence came from apart from thin air.  Oh well.  And now it's 'by not being open to all ... closed shop ... not inviting people to try it out'.  Eh? Tricky to convey clear messages this internet lark.

 

I don't disagree with your second point above however, and I'm glad to hear you like the show in general when you can attend. 

[johnb]

Well I went on Sunday and enjoyed the show. I am an unashamed OO modeller using dear old Peco track, but I found the layouts excellent and thought provoking. Not all to my taste but I hope that I do recognise good modelling and there was plenty of that. I found the trade to be good and spent a bit too.

I very much doubt that I will convert to finescale but I will certainly go again.

It was a very friendly show and the layout owners/operators only to ready to chat and explain what was going on and how they did it!. I really liked the interlocking and working signals on Plumpton Green and the unusual working signals on Witton. Fangfoss was delightful and so very different. That is not to say that I didn't like the others, they were also good, but for me those three really stood out.

Well done the organisers.

 

John

[Grovenor]

 

 

So the only reason I can thing of for not going is not knowing enough (anything?) about what to expect and whether or not it would suit me.  This thread suggests it probably would.  I don't worry to much about the name but presenting what it offers beyond the name might awaken my interest - there seems to be a need to better promote (horrible word) what lies behind the name.

So far as I can see all the information you are asking for has been provided in this very topic, starting with post #1

If promotion on RMweb is not enough for RMweb readers where should we put the publicity so that it would awaken your interest?

Regards

[davidbr]

Scaleforum is a show piece for scale 4mm finer scale modelling (particularly as seen/presented/espoused by P4). To encourage those OO modellers and even EM modellers to move up and join the P4 ranks it must be seen as welcoming and offering gentle encouragement.

 

If the society membership is presenting a closed shop (you have to prove yourself in P4 before you come along to our show) and that there is a suggestion that the public (novice modeller/OO modeller) is not welcome then frankly P4 deserves to fade.

 

Ideally, I would have thought that attracting new modellers from the very start is the ideal. Catch them before they spend all their money on OO and become embedded in that gauge. You are selling P4 as the correct gauge for 4mm after all - or is it really some exclusive club.

 

I can't say I'm attracted to P4 and build so few kits in P4 I can count them on the fingers of one hand. The demand isn't there it remains a niche within a niche. Yet I do enjoy Scaleforum. I enjoy admiring the layouts and the "feel" of the show just like EMGS shows and just like Railex. So I want it to succeed. If the numbers were truly down and the traders profits badly hit then it is time the stick in the mud society organisers started to think outside their closed minds for ways to attract more people to P4 and to get them before they feel the need to move to another gauge.

I feel you have encapsulated the misconception about Scalefour /P4 modelling and in particular, Scaleforum as a show.

 

There is no 'moving up to join the P4 ranks'; there is no suggestion that P4 is superior in any way.  P4 is only different from any other 4mm modelling in the spacing and profile of the wheels.  How one achieves excellence with scenery, painting, weathering, soldering, scratch building or any other aspect of the very broad hobby of railway modelling is applicable whether one models in Z gauge through to Gauge 1.  Whilst the Scalefour Society is only too pleased to have more members and more P4 modellers, the purpose of the show is to a) show off P4 modelling and  show what can be done, share techniques and ideas.  What is on show is for finescale modellers of all scales and standards.

 

Please don't consider, however briefly, that P4 membership is presented as a closed shop.  To say, 'society membership is presenting a closed shop (you have to prove yourself in P4 before you come along to our show) is, quite frankly, utter bull***t.  Scaleforum is put on for all modellers.  There are many Scalefour Society members who model in other scales and standards.  On the DRAG stand this weekend I spoke to 2mm, 3mm, S and 7mm modellers, even someone who does aviation modelling, who came to the show to buy from the traders, but also to pick up ideas and discuss techniques.  I have spoken to many modellers at shows who are far to far committed to OO or even EM to make a change to P4 but who nevertheless go away having learned something that helps them improve their modelling.  There is no crusade to persuade them to change, only to inform what opportunities there are.

 

Of course, as you put it, catching people young or before they are too far committed is ideal, and this applies equally to all scales and standards.  P4 is only 'correct' in that it accurately represents the full sized railway in 4mm scale, but it is not portrayed as the only way to model in that scale.  The aesthetic comparison is made by the Society and it's exponents, but ultimately it is down to the individual to make their choice, just as it is for era, company or country they want to model.  Personally, I think diesels and the modern era have as much appeal as a corpse, but does that put me at odds with anyone?  No, because I can still learn from looking, listening and discussing how people model them.

 

Is P4 niche?  Perhaps, but then then how many are modelling OO finescale, S scale, in 3mm? There is still a demand and who said anything about numbers being down or traders' profits being badly hit?  Time may show this to be so, but as of today when nothing of the sort has been said, such uninformed comments do no good anywhere.

 

I think you are wrong to suggest the Society organisers are 'stick in the mud'.  The phrase could be applied equally to those who don't see how finescale modellers, who happen to set their loco frames and wheels a bit further apart, have a lot to share with the rest of the hobby.  Scaleforum is, as has been said several times in this thread, a different sort of show - is that 'stick in the mud' thinking?  The organisers have responded to comments and suggestions so that this show has been one of the best on record.  It may not have attracted the greatest numbers, but it has had many, many satisfied visitors.  Those who did not go to the show have missed an opportunity.

 

Scalefour / P4 is another way of representing railways in model form.  Stop this blinkered and outmoded claptrap and see it for what it contributes to the wider hobby.

[Captain Kernow]

Stop this blinkered and outmoded claptrap and see it for what it contributes to the wider hobby.

I'm sure Kenton will comment for himself, but I certainly didn't read anything of that nature into his comments. If he wanted to spark a bit of debate, then that's what he's done, and I for one welcome it.

[Kenton]

 

I don't find the suggestion that this may be the last Scaleforum construtive. This statement has been made on pure speculation from one persons opinion, yet could quite easily become hearsay that show is not to continue. How can this statement be made by mid afternoon on the first day of any show, uninformed and lacking factual information before any idea of final visitor numbers and firm costs are actually known!? This kind of talk can really affect a show far more than people realise, as some people may take this information as fact and believe a show isn't taking place or may be a shadow of its former self.

 

I agree. I have said I wish the show to continue. My speculation has been about increasing footfall and consequently improving trade returns and encouraging more into P4.

 

The best cure for the speculation is for the show organisers to come here with some stats. Were the numbers of attendees up on last year for both days overall and are the suggested lower numbers (made by some) and obviously of concern by me and others just speculation.

 

I have to disagree on the subject of shows always being criticised on RMWeb. Most comments made are observations and suggestions on improvements. Things like car parking and even catering are important to many. If you cannot park at a show you will not attend and may not return to the show again. It is not all about the layouts or trade. There are also personal preferences some just happen to like GWR layouts others seem to like diesel (modern era) then there are gauge preferences. These really should be seen as personal and not harshly affecting a show - No one is oing to complain about Scaleforum not having any N gauge layouts are they (or at least be taken seriously) Yes I do know that Scaleforum has shown 2mm layouts before.

 

I think the general consensus here is that we all want the show to continue. Some as a pure society and social gathering, others as a much more widely accessible and public show. No one here seems to want the show to cease. So lets get some facts to resolve it and get on with making the next show better than the last one - they usually are.

[BG John]

I haven't been to Scaleforum for years, or Expo EM, but I went every year until I moved too far away to get there easily (Please can we have dog creches, or reserved shady parking spaces, at venues so I can get to more distant exhibitions?). I seem to remember that in the dim and distant past, these events started as society AGMs, with a few layouts on show, and evolved into what we have now. They didn't start out with the intention of being public exhibitions, so I don't think it's fair to judge them in that way. Being open and welcoming to non members is great, good for the hobby, and possibly a financial necessity if they're going to be such big events, but not what they were originally intended to be. That's pretty much how the very much smaller Broad Gauge Society event is run.

 

Turn them into "normal" exhibitions, and the crowds may come, but so will the screaming kids running around and getting annoyed, and parents too, because Thomas isn't there. And even more annoyed at the long gaps between trains, when the operators are engrossed in deep meaningful conversations about the difference between 2 and 3 bolt chairs!

[Horsetan]

..... It is not all about the layouts or trade. ....

 

For me, the Watford Finescale Show lost much of its appeal when it lost the homemade cakes.

[Derekstuart]

I have to write in support of Expo EM North and find some of the comments here being made against volunteers trying to do the best for their society to be very unhelpful at best.

 

Certainly comparing EM Nth to S4 Aylesbury is never going to be a helpful exercise.

 

Expo EM was certainly smaller and (by the time I got past the M6 late in the afternoon) was quieter. However, it was still well worth going along. I spoke to some damned good people and got lots of good advice and also asked questions from some good traders.

 

I jumped into P4 and prefer it to EM. Others have the opposite opinion- that didn't stop me enjoying EM show and I will go next year too.

 

Derek

[Captain Kernow]

I shouldn't really be surprised, but it looks as if another P4-related subject is going to generate a large amount of debate.

 

Which, by the way, I still welcome. 

[Horsetan]

I shouldn't really be surprised, but it looks as if another P4-related subject is going to generate a large amount of debate.

 

Which, by the way, I still welcome. 

 

It's just like the merits of different types of sausages.

[Captain Kernow]

It's just like the merits of different types of sausages.

I don't remember any sausages at the Watford show, but then again, I only went the once. I do remember the hall we were in being freezing cold when we first went in in the morning.

 

I have no bad memories of any home-made cakes, so that's a positive, I suppose.

[Derekstuart]

As long as the sausages are made to a diameter of 18.83 mm, who cares?

[Kenton]

 

Turn them into "normal" exhibitions, and the crowds may come, but so will the screaming kids running around and getting annoyed, and parents too, because Thomas isn't there.

I don't think that is what is being proposed. Just something to increase the number of modellers. I certainly would not like to see it become another Warley (dreadful IMO - though some may think otherwise). I do not want to see it become another Railex either nothing at all wrong with Railex as it is a show for all scales and gauges.

 

But what makes scaleforum different from ExpoEM? Is there a difference? Should there be one? What is the selling point of Scaleforum? What will attract more people to the show?

 

Oh, I don't know where the idea of me being anti P4 seems to be coming from.

 

I feel you have encapsulated the misconception about Scalefour /P4 modelling and in particular, Scaleforum as a show

If I have then how did that come about?

Stop this blinkered and outmoded claptrap and see it for what it contributes to the wider hobby.

Ah, perhaps that sort of comment explains how. Very welcoming. :no:

 

who said anything about numbers being down or traders' profits being badly hit?

Post #78 ?

[BlackRat]

I'd love to go, hopefully one year I will.

 

It's a long way, it will be expensive, but then a lot of things that I get enjoyment from are.

 

Like always, you'll never please everyone all of the time.

 

I do wonder though, how many 'new entrants' there are into P4, which may well reflect upon numbers attending the show?

 

The same re trade support, there's only so many XXXX loco's or wagons that will sell, in any scale or gauge, as the main stream rtr companies are now showing.

 

One thing looking at the photos, the average age would look to be well, shall we say of more mature years.

 

Before someone starts whining there are lots of youngsters into P4, it's only an general observation based on the pics on here.

 

Perhaps that's where the answer lies, in the demographics of the hobby and P4, being such a small part of it, may be hit by them more than the more robust ( figures wise) mainstream?

[2ManySpams]

Just back from Scaleforum, nice show with good layouts, sadly from my point of view the customers who came ( seemed less than last year) had zipped up pocket syndrome. Its an expensive show to do as a trader and even though I enjoy the event and meeting people, it should really may a profit.    

 

Lets hope the show continues but ways need to be found in my opinion to attract 'New Blood'

 

Charlie

Hey Charlie, I model 7mm O Gauge and spent £34 with you late on Sunday. That's new blood and helping you add to your fortune.