Elizabeth Line / Crossrail Updates.

[Bernard Lamb]

There was a short report in the Evening Standard last night about industrial action at Bond Street station over very high dust levels.

I have no idea how serious a problem this is,  but it does point to things not being 100% OK.

Bernard

[david.hill64]

3 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Unless it has been cancelled subsequently the derogation certainly exists - it took me about a minute to find it on the 'net.  Here it is (and I hope it isn't the NoBo I used to work for as we tried to check out back paperwork as carefully as we could) -

 

https://ec.europa.eu/transport/sites/transport/files/modes/rail/interoperability/interoperability/doc/c_2012_73_derogation_uk_ccs_tsi.pdf

Ah well done. I should have looked.

 

My confusion stemmed from reading Simon's mail as saying that initial implementation of ETCS level 2 would have to be changed to ETCS level 3.

 

I can see that implementing CBTC (not ETCS level 2) and then going to ERTMS as and when makes sense, in that it need never happen (or at least not until you can prove that ERTMS meets the reliability targets).

 

Given that the stated headway requirements can be met by ETCS level 2 I am surprised that the derogation was given. I suspect the project would have been happier to stick with ETCS level 2 throughout for the time being.

 

Live and learn!

[ess1uk]

Just being reported 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49037205

[jim.snowdon]

9 minutes ago, ess1uk said:

Just being reported 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49037205

I couldn't help but chuckle at the DfT response -

 

MPs said they were "sceptical" about the Department for Transport's "ability to oversee major rail projects".

In response, the Department for Transport said it had acted "swiftly and effectively" when problems at Crossrail became clear.

 

- rather as the guy who jumps off a cliff realises he may have a problem only when the individual grains of sand start to become visible.

 

I am getting to think that it has now taken longer to build Crossrail than it has any of the other tube railways in London. We don't seem to have progressed much.

 

Jim

[billbedford]

MP's salaries;

 

2010 -- £65,738

2019 -- £79,468

 

I really don't see why they are complaining about Crossrail.

[Mark Saunders]

19 minutes ago, billbedford said:

MP's salaries;

 

2010 -- £65,738

2019 -- £79,468

 

I really don't see why they are complaining about Crossrail.

 

At least there will be an end to the delays to Crossrail opening but I cant see an end to the bickering over the Brexit arrangements!

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, ess1uk said:

Just being reported 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49037205

Could be quite easy to save money on the scheme - all they need to do is reduce the scope (as happened on CTRL/HS1).  Terminate at west Drayton (the last station within the GLC boundary) and they save a bomb on station works and ongoing costs such as the money they are lavishing on station works further west.  Even if they terminated at Maidenhead as originally de-scoped they will save on operating costs with little impact on revenue so that would also be beneficial to the balance sheet.

 

Noticeably Crossrail will not be represented at the meeting of our branch user group next week although there are Crossrail items on the agenda (like 'when will it start?').

[hayfield]

1 hour ago, billbedford said:

MP's salaries;

 

2010 -- £65,738

2019 -- £79,468

 

I really don't see why they are complaining about Crossrail.

Bill

 

What I find strange is that a few weeks before the line was supposed to open those who were running the project stated there would be a delay, well a short delay on a project of this size is to be expected, but when its running between 1 and 2 years over many who were tasked to bring this project to a conclusion must have known well in advance that the project was so far behind

 

As for the cost overruns, again many projects do cost more, but why cannot they revise their cost as the projects progresses ? or if they do why is this not communicated ?

 

As an outsider looking in, what a mess? As usual no one takes responsibility or actions and I guess many will be getting big bonuses despite seemingly missing every target ?

 

Having said all of this it is apparently the biggest public project in Europe I guess these problems are to some extent to be expected, On the face of it, its  just the non communication till the last minute by those tasked with its implementation that is the issue

 

The plus side is that many stations have or will be upgraded  benefiting other rail users  

[Mike Storey]

3 hours ago, hayfield said:

 

 

As an outsider looking in, what a mess? As usual no one takes responsibility or actions and I guess many will be getting big bonuses despite seemingly missing every target ?

 

 

 

I agree with all your other points, but on this point, the CEO and several of the top team were sacked/resigned, and their future careers will be somewhat more questionable, one would guess. The Chairman was sacked from both the CrossRail and the HS2 roles. I think that is taking quite a lot of responsibility?

 

We do not know what actions, if any, have been taken with civil servants deemed responsible for monitoring progress, as the departments and GLA/TfL will not comment on individuals.

 

As for politicians, no doubt this mess will be used as a major issue during the next Mayoral elections, but it is very interesting how the recent PAC report focussed its ire on the DfT. The GLA/TfL took all the flak at the time the delay and budget issues were first made public, and the DfT had little to say.  I find that very interesting.

[Chris116]

Sadly the DfT are great at telling people how to do their jobs and then blame those people when the DfT are proved to be clueless. Witness the IET mess that both LNER and GWR are lumbered with. 

 

However with Cross Rail they may find they have met their match for mudslinging in TfL. Stand back and watch the fun once the services start and things are proved to be specified incorrectly, the number of knives in backs could get rather entertaining although it will not help the poor staff trying to run the service or the passengers using it. 

[The Stationmaster]

Confirmed this evening (Tuesday evening that is) that Crossrail Class 345 sets will enter public traffic between Paddington (the main line station) and Reading on 15 December - frequency not clarified.  From the same date GWR will operate two trains per hour off peak throughout the day east of Reading on what is described as a semi-fast service (Twyford, Maidenhead, Slough, West Drayton, Hayes, Ealing Broadway and Paddington) specifically timed to offer connections from the Thames Valley branches.  GWR regard their half hourly interval off-peak service as 'permanent' (provided of course they still hold the GWR franchise).    I'm not sure what happens with GWR peak services but as previous commitments have been given regarding them I presume not much alteration apart from the major timetable changes in December no doubt having some impact on times of individual trains.)

 

The situation regarding use of Oyster Cards is still not settled (and the impression was given that any sort of agreement is some way off) and normal National Rail ticketing arrangements will apply on Crossrail trains until further notice with revenue allocation through Orcats

 

NR rep confirmed that Paddington Crossrail station is not yet complete and there is no known completion date at present apart from the previously stated date in 2021 for opening the central (underground) section.   In the meanwhile various other improvements are to be carried out at Paddington starting with a scheme to greatly improve access to/from the Bakerloo Line.  Other User Group members (and the NR rep!) strongly supported my request for something to be done to improve the atrocious access between the main line station and the H&C station and the NR rep duly took note as there seems to be further provision in CP6 for improvements at Paddington.

[Zomboid]

What could really be done about the H&C access issue though? The problem is that the platform is in a stupid place, and I doubt that fixing that (or diverting the line from Royal Oak into the Pread Street platforms at vast expense) is on the table.

[The Stationmaster]

20 minutes ago, Zomboid said:

What could really be done about the H&C access issue though? The problem is that the platform is in a stupid place, and I doubt that fixing that (or diverting the line from Royal Oak into the Pread Street platforms at vast expense) is on the table.

What it needs is a far better access from the main line station - and even weather proofing it would be a step in the right direction.   I have the impression that the 'new' link to the mainline station was done on the cheap by simply pedestrianising a redundant bridge that was no longer used for vehicular traffic and which happened to go in roughly the right direction.  That undoubtedly saved a large amount of money but the result is an abortion of an access route for interchange.

[Ron Ron Ron]

I’m baffled.

In the last couple of years, Ive never had any problem with quick and easy connections from the Paddington main line platforms to the H&C.

As far as I recall, it’s all under cover.

 

I’ve found it to be the easiest and quickest way out of the station if that tube line is a suitable route to my destination.

[caradoc]

25 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

I’m baffled.

In the last couple of years, Ive never had any problem with quick and easy connections from the Paddington main line platforms to the H&C.

As far as I recall, it’s all under cover.

 

I’ve found it to be the easiest and quickest way out of the station if that tube line is a suitable route to my destination.

 

It's a fair way to walk if you are at the front of a main line service into Paddington (especially to a low-numbered platform), against the predominant flow of detraining passengers. The Circle Line station should be the most convenient Underground connection but the appalling service offered there has ruined that.

 

[Joseph_Pestell]

3 hours ago, Zomboid said:

What could really be done about the H&C access issue though? The problem is that the platform is in a stupid place, and I doubt that fixing that (or diverting the line from Royal Oak into the Pread Street platforms at vast expense) is on the table.

 

No cheap solutions possible (although re-use of the Bishops Road platforms' space could bring in some revenue).

 

The easiest is for the H&C to become a branch of the Bakerloo, getting rid of Praed St junction and therefore offering a much better service to the District Line platforms at Paddington.

[adb968008]

On 19/07/2019 at 10:16, billbedford said:

MP's salaries;

 

2010 -- £65,738

2019 -- £79,468

 

I really don't see why they are complaining about Crossrail.

Thats not really a professional London Salary, especially not a thankless one, where everyone hates you and you can lose your job in the turn of the clock.

 

Plus have every penny spent investigated, published and hounded by journalists.. whilst you have considerable travel up and down the country to put up with.

 

Theres much easier jobs in London, for these salaries.

Edited July 24, 2019 by adb968008

[62613]

18 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Thats not really a professional London Salary, especially not a thankless one, where everyone hates you and you can lose your job in the turn of the clock.

 

Plus have every penny spent investigated, published and hounded by journalists.. whilst you have considerable travel up and down the country to put up with.

 

Theres much easier jobs in London, for these salaries.

Yes, quite an ordinary salary for a junior or middle managerial position in most parts of the country, I would have thought.

 

[The Stationmaster]

4 hours ago, caradoc said:

 

It's a fair way to walk if you are at the front of a main line service into Paddington (especially to a low-numbered platform), against the predominant flow of detraining passengers. The Circle Line station should be the most convenient Underground connection but the appalling service offered there has ruined that.

 

It's also a very roundabout walk if you come in on Platform 12 and particularly 14  plus various other platforms on that side which is what some regular commuters are not at all happy about hence supporting what I said,  The walk to get to the new H&C station entrance is considerably longer and less convenient than simply using a different sets of stairs off the previous 'common' footbridge.  It is a far more difficult trip with luggage than it was via the old route although you can at least now use the lifts - if you know where they are - up to the taxi rank.

 

Yes - there is 'cover' of a sort but a lot of it is next to useless when there is heavy rain with a bit of a wind blowing it about.  The job was undoubtedly done on the cheap with little attention paid to how passenger interchange works between the main station and the H&C as it inevitably now takes much longer than it previously did.  It has in fact got gradually worse over the years between the inner suburban services and the H&C because for years after the through trains went the interchange was either cross-platform or over the footbridge between the two adjacent island platforms and of course that same footbridge continued under the main roof past the old C Booking Office to link to all platforms on the main line side.

 

From 1967 cross platform interchange went and it was necessary to cross the footbridge from one island to another (or from the main station) and there was then a ticket barrier between LT and the main station - but it was still off the main footbridge until the H&C station was rebuilt and effectively divorced from the main station.  Having it used it off & on for more years that I care to remember there is no doubt at all in my mind that it is far less convenient as an interchange than it ever was in the past and negotiating it takes longer (very noticeable when you are in a hurry for a main line train and only have a few minutes to spare.  The same of course can be said of access to/from taxis which is also far less convenient than it was before the Eastbourne Terrace cab road was annexed by Crossrail and departing taxis were moved away for the Up side cab road (although that does make things a lot better for pedestrian movement on that side of teh station.  A possible advantage for the cabbies is that set down and pick up are now in the same place - only problem for intending outward passengers is that they now have to cross from one side of the station to another to get a ticket - however the increasing use of E-Tickets ought to remove that potential problem.

 

Anyway the good news is that both GWR and NR are recognising the problems which getting around Paddington station poses for passengers and interchanging with UndergrounD lines and that CP6 includes provision (amount unspecified) for tackling that (or some of it) according to the NR rep at our Branch User Group yesterday evening.

 

Mind you the far, far. better news was of course that certain intermediate stations east of Reading will still have an off-peak half-hourly interval service of proper (Class 387) trains after Crossrail's  trains start running and - on current GWR plans - after Crossrail is fully open.

Edited July 24, 2019 by The Stationmaster

[jim.snowdon]

2 hours ago, 62613 said:

Yes, quite an ordinary salary for a junior or middle managerial position in most parts of the country, I would have thought.

 

Really? It's marginally less than I was getting as a very senior engineer with responsibility for a complete tramway system. I know engineers tend to get undervalued, but a junior or middle manager getting that much does seem unrealistic.

 

Jim

[Mike Storey]

1 hour ago, jim.snowdon said:

Really? It's marginally less than I was getting as a very senior engineer with responsibility for a complete tramway system. I know engineers tend to get undervalued, but a junior or middle manager getting that much does seem unrealistic.

 

Jim

 

I think it applies more to the SE, rather than the country as a whole. I was earning more as a Programme Director in London than several Board Directors at TOCs in the Midlands and the North (if they were not telling me fibs). Mind you, they also got private health, a company car in some cases, and a decent performance bonus (more a dividend), which is more than I got when I left NR (and new people to NR senior ranks could not have all that either).

[caradoc]

One final (promise !) moan about Underground access at Paddington; Why, at the top of the Bakerloo Line escalators, does the flow of passengers change from right hand on the escalators to left hand through the passageway to Paddington main line ?

It just adds to the congestion.

[The Stationmaster]

14 hours ago, caradoc said:

One final (promise !) moan about Underground access at Paddington; Why, at the top of the Bakerloo Line escalators, does the flow of passengers change from right hand on the escalators to left hand through the passageway to Paddington main line ?

It just adds to the congestion.

According to what was said the other evening that passageway (assuming we are talking about the same one of the two?) is going to receive 'major attention' because it is recognised as being too narrow and congested.

[hayfield]

20 hours ago, adb968008 said:

That's not really a professional London Salary, especially not a thankless one, where everyone hates you and you can lose your job in the turn of the clock.

 

Plus have every penny spent investigated, published and hounded by journalists.. whilst you have considerable travel up and down the country to put up with.

 

Theres much easier jobs in London, for these salaries.

 

That's their salary, then they have expenses which they can claim, plus plenty of perks, many have second and far better paid employments (or union sponsorship) second homes paid for, gold plated pensions, generous severance payments etc. The real benefit of their jobs is probably far more than their salary. Try watching the parliament channel, very rarely more than a couple of dozen in the chamber at any one time, when they are there are concentrating on their phones. If my attendance and behavior was as poor where I work, I would soon be out of a job.    

Edited July 25, 2019 by hayfield

[surfsup]

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

According to what was said the other evening that passageway (assuming we are talking about the same one of the two?) is going to receive 'major attention' because it is recognised as being too narrow and congested.

 

I'm led to believe that the Bakerloo ticket office is due to be rebuilt within the next few years, thanks to a major new development happening above that side of the station area. Quite how they will aim to expand the link between the Ticket Office and the District Ticket office remains to be seen though, considering that section I believe runs under the hotel? 

 

I would also rather be interest to see what's proposed for the Bakerloo - Crossrail Link as those escalators can be very congested during large parts of the day, although unfortunately there seems to be very little on the internet about it. 

 

Here's a link to what seems to be proposed for Paddington Bakerloo. 

https://www.thisispaddington.com/article/paddington-bakerloo-transformation

Edited July 25, 2019 by surfsup