Oxford Rail announces - OO gauge GWR Dean Goods

[BG John]

If they do produce a round top version later, and do it in pre 1906 livery, it will probably be too late for me to buy one. I don't need a Dean Goods at all for my layout, so can't justify more than one. Carrying on with my Mainline conversion is still winning at the moment, not because of detail faults, but because to me the Oxford one looks too "chunky", and the Mainline appears to be closer to the more "delicate" appearance they had, certainly in the early 1900s. With the parts I already have, I can make a big saving even if I do the Mainline one to a higher standard than I originally planned. I'd still need to make changes to the Oxford one, and repaint it anyway.

 

If I didn't already have the Mainline one, I might buy it, but maybe I'd put the money towards a kit for something more suitable instead.

 

Oxford isn't really working for me! I was going to buy the Adams Radial to start off my Colonel Stephens layout, but ended up with O gauge Dapol Terriers instead. I probably won't buy a Dean Goods. I'd rather like a couple of the new NB 4 plank opens, as they fit my period, but haven't yet found out if they were used by private owners in southern England. I've asked on RMweb a few times, but not got a clear answer, and I'm not spending several times the price of the wagon on a book, if that's the only way to find out!

[Horsetan]

....This is asking for  trouble, as up till recently , the Chinese , and to some extent the Japanese, took a deep pride in delivering exactly what was ordered, complete wit mistakes by the Western maker.....

I think you will find that the difference between the Japanese and the Chinese is their mentality. The Japanese - to give them credit - not only could deliver what was ordered but also strove to see whether designs could be improved. How do you think their car industry managed to take on all-comers?

 

The Chinese mentality - and I should know - is merely to make money. Doesn't matter how.

 

....After around 2001 Hornby did indeed start to produce really fine models and they just got better (apart from the DesClev dip)....

 

...and I seem to recall that was only because they took over some of the former Dapol range which, visually at least, looked more like fine models than anything that Margate was turning out at the time. The Rebuilt MN was a game changer for Hornby and demonstrated that they could do it, albeit at the cost of losing the kind of Volkswagen-like universal spares availability that Hornby had previously achieved.

[bertiedog]

A good point made was the evil and dark "world of photoshop", capable in a marketeers hands of making the proverbial pigs ear into a purse.

 

It is used and abused all to often, and the product itself is fine, it is the user that is the issue, and the gullibility of the viewer in accepting the image.

 

We collapse in laughter at the Cottingley Fairies photographs these days, that fooled Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, with scissor cut out drawings in the photos, yet people daily accept photos on the net as genuine, or take as proven the latest video of aliens on youtube.

 

With development of CAD files , and a spot of creative editing, the buyer is presented with what appears to be a sample, but of course it is as fake as canned laughter. It not new, previously artist were employed by all publishers and agencies to manually re-work photos before use in any graphic requirements. Any thing that can be done now, could be done then, they had considerable expertise.

 

Trouble is an office junior has photoshop at his beck and call, and can cover up, polish and make good any image so well, that it borders on deception.

 

To much trust is placed in Computers, CAD, CNC, Laser cutting,.... junk in junk out is the maxim with computers, they only reflect the programmers knowledge, no more or less, even with so called AI, which is still in the junior kindergarten stages.

 

To a programmers knowledge is added a non expert user and you have problems abounding.  But photoshop in particular is relatively easy to grasp, and the results can be stunning. I use it in photos all the time, removing blemishes, people, and transferring objects, altering perspective, increasing focus depth, it is all so possible.

 

Experience has shown not to trust commercial photos nowadays, they will have been got at!!!

 

And relevant to models do not even trust files, even in RAW format from a digital camera. The cameras processing algorithms generate shapes that follow rules in the maths, not reality exactly, colours are estimates, curves do not exist, they are collections of calculated pixel clusters in the approximation of a curve.

 

Cameras did lie, and digital cameras even more so, but add in Photoshop, (or rivals), and reality is out of the door despite it looking real.

 

Stephen

[amdaley]

When Oxford started producing model railway products I was delighted.

I thought they would start producing models which were as accurate as possible to make.

I am not an expert so I rely on others like on here to educate me as to how accurate or otherwise a model is.

 

I bought the Oxford wagons even though doubts were expressed as to their accuracy in design & livery.

I bought an Adams Radial even though again doubts were expressed again about certain details on the model & that daylight problem under the boiler.

I convinced myself that they are only starting to make rtr railway models & will learn quickly.

 

I was really looking forward to the Dean Goods as it is an iconic loco.

But it seems I will be disappointed as Oxford have not learned anything at all from previous mistakes.

The only difference is that this time I won't be buying.

At least I have learned from my mistakes even if Oxford haven't.

 

Thanks to those on here who expertise have helped those of us lacking in such knowledge.

Edited June 10, 2016 by amdaley

[bertiedog]

Yes, the numberplate I estimate from the shots, to be an inch too long, it is the non symmetrical placing that is so obvious. but then it is the kind of item to change anyway to personalise the locos identity.

 

There appear to be other areas, the smokebox door may not be period etc.,

 

AS said before on other postings the handrails should be radial posts to the boiler centre line, but as they chose to use a metal boiler, then issues, very costly ones, arise.

 

When the mould is closed prior to injection of the metal, all surfaces in the mould must either be at right angles to the mould, or if parallel, must have Draught, in other words a taper toward the major mould splits, otherwise the mould would not open up cleanly.

 

Deep small holes like the handrail knobs are problematic, they are not in a plane to the major splits, and the metal casting would not release when required.

 

There are answers, and it is obvious that Hornby do not know or are not aware of them, and they, and now Oxford have ploughed  ahead and used holes aligned to the splits.

 

The answer is not to mould the holes in the first case !!!!, you mark the casting with a moulded dimple at each spot, and use what is termed second process in engineering and pass the casting to the fettling process and finally to a bod with a job at the end of the production line, who drills out the holes, marked and prepared by the dimples. simples?????

 

But not to an accountant, who sees every extra stage as a calculated cost increase., he is no engineer , designer or  user of the final part, he just counts beans all day.

 

So to save a couple of pence they alter reality and have out of true handrail knobs, basically because they are ignorant of the basic engineering required.

 

And by the way there is a second solution, the pins that mould the holes can be withdrawn in the opening process in the moulds, costly but effective, but what price is a Chinese Bod with a Job and a press drill? It shows a sad lack of knowledge by producers of engineering.

 

 I will go on record that British Suppliers of models from China have never worked in a factory, or can name or control each stage of the processes used to make the model parts, they would not know a pillar drill from a mill or how to use them.

 

Stephen

Edited June 10, 2016 by bertiedog

[Dunsignalling]

....... I'd rather like a couple of the new NB 4 plank opens, as they fit my period, but haven't yet found out if they were used by private owners in southern England. I've asked on RMweb a few times, but not got a clear answer, and I'm not spending several times the price of the wagon on a book, if that's the only way to find out!

Highly unlikely.

 

None of the large operators/collieries in the Midlands, southern England or Wales seem to have used these if contemporary photographs are anything to go by.

 

As for firms that only ran small numbers of wagons, why would they go to the extra trouble and expense of obtaining wagons from North of the border when there was a choice of wagon builders competing for their custom much closer to home?

 

Look at it from the other end. Would you expect a small coal merchant in the Scottish Highlands to buy his few wagons from Gloucester RC&W?

 

John

Edited June 10, 2016 by Dunsignalling

[bertiedog]

My apologies to those patient kind souls here who will feel I have covered points made by them already or at length, but I struggle with arthritis and have to type slowly with one finger these days, and by the time I post a reply the world has progressed and other replies posted!!! I am not getting at members by repeating things, it is just overlaps occurring.

 

An example though, an 8ba screw for a specialist instrument, how many stages are needed to make it? or do you buy in a screw from stock makers? Not in our case, it needed total accuracy in thread and form, and relief under the head, and a coned threadless end.

 

Blank brass rod in a Brittain semi auto lathe, box cut the shaft, box threaded with a Clarkson die threader, cut to length, form tool the coned end, and relieve the thread under the head, and then turn the head diameter, then part off to a blank item. Then take to second operations, where the top slit is cut with a precision saw setup. The blank is then de-burred, tested with a toolmakers gauge for the thread fit, and examined as samples on a microscope to check the thread form.

 

The blank is then processed by tumbling to get a specified surface finish, and acid cleaned before wet storage in solvent to prevent oxidisation.......and that does not include inspection at every stage, all for one screw! The work would be set up by an experienced toolmaker and setter, then handed over to the bod with the job for the repetitive work of making thousands of screws.

 

Now get a Hornby designer to name and demonstrate each of the thousand processes in the manufacture of a model.....they are not even in a factory.........

 

Stephen

Edited June 10, 2016 by bertiedog

[coachmann]

Show a photo of a Dean Goods to a million people and the only person to point up the firebox problem would likely be someone who has just finished building a Dean Goods! In other words, we all know loco class differences in broad canvass terms whereas few of us can bring to mind detail unless we have been closely involved in building or painting a particular class of loco.

[Quarryscapes]

Been looking some more, thought it might be pertinent to post some freeze frames from the linked video - I hope that's OK? 

 

There are some very good plus points on this model, as I said before - easier to see when it's not moving, as it's construction. It certainly looks like boiler, smokebox and firebox are a single moulding. The chimney appears separate (hence the ghastly base), the safety valve is very obviously separate and I suspect the top feed is too. Not so sure on the dome, could be part of the boiler moulding. There is daylight under the boiler, which is very nice. I can't tell readily if the boiler etc is separate from the footplate, it may be as the cylinder cover plate appears to have a good level of separation, but it could just be nice moulding work rather than an actual separation line! The cab backhead detail is also very nice. It's also nice to see that the handrails have been straightened as opposed to that hand painted sample we saw previously! 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I currently have on order the plain GWR one, not sure whether I should switch to the lined one and get the top feed I need for 2483! 

 

 

 

[Dunsignalling]

Show a photo of a Dean Goods to a million people and the only person to point up the firebox problem would likely be someone who has just finished building a Dean Goods! In other words, we all know loco class differences in broad canvass terms whereas few of us can bring to mind detail unless we have been closely involved in building or painting a particular class of loco.

Very true. Also, those of us buying the BR black one won't have any great difficulty adding a bit of plastikard and/or filler to improve the profile of the firebox, then touching up the paint should we feel the need. Yes, it could and should be better but it's not a disaster in the same league as a major dimensional error or a poor quality mechanism.   

 

If comparing it to the old Mainline model, the Oxford loco will need much less attention than the Mainline tender.

 

I was initially disappointed with the horizontal handrails on Hornby's J15 and 700 but, quite honestly, when the thing is running around a layout two or three feet away, you can't be certain it even has handrails! 

 

John

Edited June 10, 2016 by Dunsignalling

[bertiedog]

It does look like the handrails have a cranked top section to correct the hole problem, the proof may be in the fact the rail almost covers the washout plugs as the cranking would raise the handrail line a small bit...................

 

The split mentioned on the underside of the boiler is the lower area under the whole thing, of which the J15 is the best example,, it leaves a joint line along the underside from front to back, on each side, and in some lined out cases the maker has stopped the lining at the join!

 

A well made joint does not show on a black model, but on green the lining stops at the joint and picks up again on the underside, (if we are lucky), making the extra joint very obvious.

 

It just seems funny that Oxford are doing the same method as Hornby.........

 

The Hornby J15 was curable, it was just badly assembled, and left a tapernig gap. It just needed filing flat to remove burrs and then putting back together carefully. With black finish and normal lighting it does not now show as much.

 

Stephen.

[bertiedog]

The image shows the split along the boiler bottom on each side, and on the sample a black bottom section......... and the odd handrails in position.

 

Stephen.

 

[bertiedog]

Careful study of the worded descriptions from the older Toy Fair reports and the various photos, seems to leave changing the body to the Airfix one, a nigh on impossible job. The underside of the boiler is a solid part of the metal cast footplate, there is daylight though, and the top of the boiler fits as a "cap" over the bottom, supported at both ends. The foot plate has a well at the firebox area, through which the drive train from the high mounted motor drives the rear axle. So it is possible that the shape is due to the drive mechanism width to some extent.firebox.

 

However the whole design indicates a simple exchange of one moulding to provide a round topped boiler version, so better news......

 

Stephen.

[BG John]

I'd have expected the green to be at least as dark as the diesel in the background, and being in a pre 1928 livery, should be a darker green than most RTR GWR locos, that are usually in 1930s/40s liveries.

 

2309 was fitted with a B4 boiler in 1910, and wouldn't have had top feed until at least about 1913 (RCTS), but according to GWR.org, domes started to be painted body colour from 1909, so should it have a polished dome?

 

Edited June 10, 2016 by BG John

[Hroth]

I'd have expected the green to be at least as dark as the diesel in the background, and being in a pre 1928 livery, should be a darker green than most RTR GWR locos, that are usually in 1930s/40s liveries.

 

2309 was fitted with a B4 boiler in 1910, and wouldn't have had top feed until at least about 1913 (RCTS), but according to GWR.org, domes started to be painted body colour from 1909, so should it have a polished dome?

 

 

So, if 2309 got the B4 in 1910 then it should have a painted dome, and the top feed dates it to post 1913 anyway.

 

So if we want the pretty lined livery and the brass dome, then the top feed needs to go and the boiler needs to be pre 1910.  What would it have B4 the B4?  (Sorry, I just couldn't help it...)  I'm supposing a round-topped boiler, but then again, would it be lined?

 

Oh bugrit!

[BG John]

So, if 2309 got the B4 in 1910 then it should have a painted dome, and the top feed dates it to post 1913 anyway.

 

So if we want the pretty lined livery and the brass dome, then the top feed needs to go and the boiler needs to be pre 1910.  What would it have B4 the B4?  (Sorry, I just couldn't help it...)  I'm supposing a round-topped boiler, but then again, would it be lined?

 

Oh bugrit!

Built 08/1883 with S0

S2 from 02/1891

B2 from 02/1902

B4 from 06/1910

Superheated 03/1922

Withdrawn 04/1931

 

A quick look shows B4s fitted to other members of the class from 1901, so with a change of number, and removing top feed etc, you could have it in pre 1906 lined livery with Indian Red wheels and frames, or the livery as modelled from 1906 including polished dome. 2309 may have lost the lined livery in WW1, so it seems an odd choice as it may have only run in this livery (but with a painted dome) for a few years that very few people model.

 

It's a shame I can't post the photo of 2322, due to copyright, that I started converting my Mainline one to, with B4 boiler, polished dome, Indian Red frames and wheels, and tender coal rails.

[The Stationmaster]

It does look like the handrails have a cranked top section to correct the hole problem, the proof may be in the fact the rail almost covers the washout plugs as the cranking would raise the handrail line a small bit...................

 

The split mentioned on the underside of the boiler is the lower area under the whole thing, of which the J15 is the best example,, it leaves a joint line along the underside from front to back, on each side, and in some lined out cases the maker has stopped the lining at the join!

 

A well made joint does not show on a black model, but on green the lining stops at the joint and picks up again on the underside, (if we are lucky), making the extra joint very obvious.

 

It just seems funny that Oxford are doing the same method as Hornby.........

 

The Hornby J15 was curable, it was just badly assembled, and left a tapernig gap. It just needed filing flat to remove burrs and then putting back together carefully. With black finish and normal lighting it does not now show as much.

 

Stephen.

 

Not really 'funny' but possibly explained by them using the same factory or the factory they are using having the same designer as did the Hornby model  (and you're not the first person to comment on similarity of its construction to that used on a recent smaller Hornby loco).

 

But don't forget at the end it still comes down to the customer specifying what they want and also checking that things are done properly to meet their specification - they get CADs to check, they get EPs to check, they get assembly samples off production tooling to check, and they get powered and decoration samples to check.  But it all takes time, communication can be a  problem as you can't sit down next to the designer, and it needs care and attention and not just accepting what you are given if it doesn't match the spec or won't be ready  in time for your pre-arranged production slot.

[Edwardian]

I'd have expected the green to be at least as dark as the diesel in the background, and being in a pre 1928 livery, should be a darker green than most RTR GWR locos, that are usually in 1930s/40s liveries.

 

2309 was fitted with a B4 boiler in 1910, and wouldn't have had top feed until at least about 1913 (RCTS), but according to GWR.org, domes started to be painted body colour from 1909, so should it have a polished dome?

 

 

Yes, really quite dark

[adb968008]

To me the model looks better than the airfix one. The price is ok. I will be wanting a black one.

 

You can always improve any model no matter how good it is.

 

So 3 ticks from me.

 

I may want to replace the printed cab side number with an etched one, otherwise I think it's all good.

 

Not many out there producing a tender engine retailing under 100 notes these days... Doubt even Hornby could do that with their existing dean goods. I wil be looking to see if that 0-6-0 chassis could be a source for some other small 0-6-0 kits I have too.

I presume a WD / ROD version may be forthcoming ?, maybe one or two other "war related" international liveries..., this being one of a few UK classes to have operated on 3 continents.. and through enemy capture or resale, some made it too quite exotic locations for this class including Russia, Poland, Tunisia, Turkey quite a few ended up in China ! - having been used in both World Wars...indeed nearly 1/3rd the fleet never returned to the UK.

 

Some links from other parts of rmweb here..

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/100333-tales-of-war-and-peace-part-2-snowhillroxey-mouldings-wd-austerity-2-10-0-in-7mm/&do=findComment&comment=1936103

 

Also a few pictures from a French forum..

http://forum.e-train.fr/album_mod/upload/grandes/4c09d5b218266df17e8d0b6bb1b84648.jpg

 

http://forum.e-train.fr/album_mod/upload/fd281b12a9da3f73baa174c7f64fb175.jpg

Edited June 11, 2016 by adb968008

[coachmann]

Not many out there producing a tender engine retailing under 100 notes these days... Doubt even Hornby could do that with their existing dean goods. 

A good many locos are currently below £100.00 notes....Bachmann Compound, LMS diesel 10000, GER D16/3 4-4-0, ROD (W.Reg) 2-8-0...  all £79.50 each, GWR 'Castle', LNER A3 Pacific, SR S15 4-6-0, GCR 2-8-0 £99.50, LNW G2 0-8-0 £99.95, Bachmann LMS Jubilee £99.99....Just a few plucked out of this weeks emails from various model shops. Contrast this with a 6 months ago when Hornby and Bachmann thought they were on a free ride to much higher prices.

 

SR '700' 0-6-0 @ £79.99 and  GER J15 0-6-0 @ £74.50. A Dean Goods 0-6-0 would have to be very special @ £112.95. I doubt Oxford will be able to sustain their original price.

Edited June 11, 2016 by coachmann

[Edwardian]

Also a few pictures from a French forum..

http://forum.e-train.fr/album_mod/upload/grandes/4c09d5b218266df17e8d0b6bb1b84648.jpg

 

http://forum.e-train.fr/album_mod/upload/fd281b12a9da3f73baa174c7f64fb175.jpg

 

Ah, the ability of our Continental cousins to render the clean, elegant British outline design ugly!

 

Still, beauty is in the eye of the beholder and if you can live with that firebox  faux pas (which is French, see what I did there?), then best of British Luck to you!

[adb968008]

A good many locos are currently below £100.00 notes....Bachmann Compound, LMS diesel 10000, GER D16/3 4-4-0, £79.50, ROD (W.Reg) 2-8-0 all £79.50 each, GWR 'Castle', LNER A3 Pacific, SR S15 4-6-0, GCR 2-8-0 £99.50, LNW G2 0-8-0 £99.95, Bachmann LMS Jubilee £99.99....Just a few plucked out of this weeks emails from various model shops. Contrast this with a 6 months ago when Hornby and Bachmann thought they were on a ride to much higher prices.

If you go on ebay you can find a steam loco for a tenner.

 

But it's besides the point... It is advertised as a new tooling..it is offered (Without super sales prices) at less than £100...

 

Or

 

To put it another way.... In 2016, When a new tooled GWR saddle tank has an rrp of £150... This one has a price lower than Someone else is selling a diesel shunter.

 

So indirectly I think we agree.

 

We have been spoiled as modellers in the last 20 years, and I doubt unless the prices rises even more than it has already, will that standard be maintained. (The big boys aren't perfect now are they?).

 

This one to me is a reasonable compromise, I'm not going to buy a fleet of these, and neither do I find them glamorous, but I want 1. If that means I sacrifice some minor detail, yet still have something vastly better, at a lower price.. That means I can have a few spare quid to splash out on a model that I prefer to be super detailed at a higher standard later.

 

That said, I fit doesn't sell well... What bargain price would this go at ?, so far Oxford seems to be selling Radials quite well, and many variations available, so it's not been seen...that's not a bad sign surely ? However, inaccurate Mk3's for instance, the market maybe slightly more unforgiving...as old ones are plentiful and cheap..its quality that's sought for these, not price.

Edited June 11, 2016 by adb968008

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

... I will be looking to see if that 0-6-0 chassis could be a source for some other small 0-6-0 kits I have too...

 

As for that drive, the frame layout and dimensions are Swindon's copy of Crewe's highly standardised 0-6-0 production, a widely admired success. They were not the only works to pick up on what Crewe had achieved, so there are many other subjects out there that will take the 7'3"+8'3" and 5'2" wheel that this mechanism should have. If the motor is low enough it might go in a Doncaster type like the LNER J3 should I ever fancy one of those.

[mikeharvey22]

 I will go on record that British Suppliers of models from China have never worked in a factory, or can name or control each stage of the processes used to make the model parts, they would not know a pillar drill from a mill or how to use them.

 

Stephen

Just for the sake of good order a tiny piece of research on the Oxford Rail website reveals that the owner of Oxford Diecast (and Oxford Rail) started on the shop floor at the Mettoy factory in Swansea in the1970s where diecast Corgi Toys and many other items were made. Oxford Diecast bought the factory and produced diecast models there prior to the transfer of production to their own factory in China.

 

This is what Lyndon Davies wrote:-

 

"I have been in manufacturing for nearly 40 years. I trained with the Mettoy Company in the 1970's. I worked in every area of the factory, hands on as part of programme for the future of the company. Mettoy employed 3500 workers and was a leading producer of diecast, plastic and in its early years tinplate based items. Ministry of Defence approved we manufactured everything - Toys, Hand Grenade Mechanisms, Electrical Goods, Razors, Automotive Products etc. I often joke, if you've used it I have made it !"

[coachmann]

 The Rebuilt MN was a game changer for Hornby and demonstrated that they could do it, albeit at the cost of losing the kind of Volkswagen-like universal spares availability that Hornby had previously achieved.

...And my small involvement with that rebuilt Merchant Navy moved the hobby on another step......The backheads of all locos started to have their pipework and other details picked out.

Edited June 11, 2016 by coachmann