Bachmann 2016 Announcements

[darren01]

I was looking through some old Hornby magazines and came across an add by Hatton's  advertising the Wickham trolley. This was in  July 2013  at £39.06, and in the same add was per-orders for the Birdcage coaches as well,  so it going to take Bachmann over four years to get a model to market, That's some time.

How can you run a business this way  

[Dunsignalling]

I was looking through some old Hornby magazines and came across an add by Hatton's  advertising the Wickham trolley. This was in  July 2013  at £39.06, and in the same add was per-orders for the Birdcage coaches as well,  so it going to take Bachmann over four years to get a model to market, That's some time.

How can you run a business this way  

Lots of industries have long development times ahead of products being released. The difference with model railways is that, for good or ill, many planned products get publicised long before any real work has been done on them. 

 

Bachmann are not alone in this but they do have a lot of "previous" dating back as far as original Ivatt 2MT tanks which IIRC were delivered over 4 years after their first appearance in the catalogue.

 

Ever since that, I have assumed an extra three years over Bachmann's estimated release dates. I usually get closer to reality than they do.

 

John

[sandwich station]

 

Bachmann are not alone in this but they do have a lot of "previous" dating back as far as original Ivatt 2MT tanks which IIRC were delivered over 4 years after their first appearance in the catalogue.

 

Yes, I remember the original Ivatt, I wanted to buy one but got fed up waiting year after year for it. Funny thing is, I never have purchased one but am tempted by the latest versions.

[ThaneofFife]

I think Merl Evans played a big part in getting the excellent Class 85 electric to the market.  Surprised to hear of his passing.

[shunny]

Just had word from my local shop Scoonie Hobbies that my order for 40159 in BR Blue due to be delivered next week. It seems they have arrived earlier than Bachmann thought as website still listing as Oct/Nov.

[rob D2]

Lots of industries have long development times ahead of products being released. The difference with model railways is that, for good or ill, many planned products get publicised long before any real work has been done on them. 

 

Bachmann are not alone in this but they do have a lot of "previous" dating back as far as original Ivatt 2MT tanks which IIRC were delivered over 4 years after their first appearance in the catalogue.

 

Ever since that, I have assumed an extra three years over Bachmann's estimated release dates. I usually get closer to reality than they do.

 

John

 

Is the long lead time necessary to warn off other manufacturers ? If so it would make more sense to reach a gentleman S agreement or some such

[cctransuk]

Is the long lead time necessary to warn off other manufacturers ? If so it would make more sense to reach a gentleman S agreement or some such

 

..... but that would be illegal - there are laws against collusion on the grounds that it would be anti-competitive.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[JeremyC]

..... but that would be illegal - there are laws against collusion on the grounds that it would be anti-competitive.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

Somewhere I have read that in Germany the model manufacturers 'leak' their future plans to an unofficial group who then mention what they've heard to other manufacturers.

Would it be anti-competetive anyway to tell rivals what you're doing if there's no agreement that other manufacturers will then avoid duplication?

 

Jeremy

[Andy Hayter]

Somewhere I have read that in Germany the model manufacturers 'leak' their future plans to an unofficial group who then mention what they've heard to other manufacturers.

Would it be anti-competetive anyway to tell rivals what you're doing if there's no agreement that other manufacturers will then avoid duplication?

 

Jeremy

 

Yes it probably would be seen as being uncompetitive if as a consequence rivals are effectively warned off - even if no agreement not to compete could be proven.  Potential fine is 10% of turnover = all of your profits and quite a bit more.

 

Even the leak to an unofficial group could be construed as a means to manipulate the market - and frankly I would be very surprised if what you read were true.  Anyway today the level of German competition is very low compared with the past.

 

The only "safe" way within the law to warn off the competition is an open announcement to the market - which may or may not be successful in warning off the competition - Q6, Adams radial etc.   And such examples can be used to show DG IV (Competition Direction in Brussels) that such pre-announcements are not anti competitive.

 

The problem fundamentally is that anything you think of that might ward off the competition from duplicating a model, if it is successful, is an infringement of the competition laws by definition.

[JeremyC]

Or is it the usual, everyone else in Europe takes a pragmatic view and makes the law work sensibly whereas the UK gold plates it and makes sure it works to our disadvantage (and then blames the EU).

 

Jeremy

[Andy Hayter]

I can say with absolute certainty no - having been involved with companies that have had early morning visits from the authorities.

 

If you want (wrongly) to blame the EU do so, but the UK authorities are as strong on competition breaches as those in Italy, Germany and France - and if you really want to end up deep in the mire, just let the US authorities in on the act.  A US COE can be jailed and his firm fined in the US because his subsidiary company somewhere east of Timbuctoo has been locally anti-competitive.

[Legend]

Yes this isn't due to EU . There are tight competition rules the world over .effectively they make any form of collaboration impossible .

[jjb1970]

There is a lot of duplication in the German market and the competition between the major players (such as Fleischmann/Roco, Marklin/Trix, Piko. Brawa, Liliput etc) seems pretty ruthless with not a lot of evidence of avoiding stepping on each others toes. German consumers are also quite well known for being canny shoppers with an eye for a bargain, although sales are not so common the shops do discount.

[Andy Hayter]

Yes German shops do discount but to much lower levels on ne models than the UK.  I challenge you to find the standard 15% pre-issue discount that is prevalent with Bachmann in the UK with the major sellers.  I am not saying it cannot be done, but I have never found it.

 

Sales - as said are twice per year - Sommer- and Winter-schlussverkauf.  The dates are prescribed and the summer sales are in August and the winter ones end January - just a tip for your next bargains.  France is much more prescriptive and I can expect all of a 5€ discount on a 400€ model unless it is very old stock - and don't think weeks or months - a year at least if not more.  Postal charge differences can easily wipe out the advantage of a discount. 

 

Anyway back to Bachmann and 2016.

[jjb1970]

The issue of duplication has always been part of the hobby scene I think. And it is not always bad, sometimes companies make models of the same prototype but aim their product at different segments, an example being the Hornby Mk.1 which offers a good but basic model alongside the Bachmann model. In some cases, a prototype is significant enough to mean that a full range manufacturer will see inclusion of it within their range as desirable regardless of whether a rival company makes it. I think there is a tendency to see sinister ulterior motives in duplication yet whilst there may be something in that in some cases I tend to believe (perhaps naively) that in most cases it is either unintended or based on normal product decision making. If looking at other markets, duplication is normal in Europe, the USA and Japan for mainstream prototypes, less so for the more niche offerings, which makes sense. Often this duplication will be of the type we see with Mk.1 coaches, in some cases it is duplication within a company. For example Roco make a Br103 and their sister company Fleischmann make a Br103 which is equivalent to a lower priced railroad type offering. Either way, I don’t believe some form of cartel arrangement where manufacturers agree who gets what piece of the pie would be positive (even if such an idea was legal, which it isn’t).

On discounting, I think in some ways German shops are more switched on than ours as they seem to discount older stock to encourage sales to get rid of it rather than offering big discounts on new releases (although many German shops do offer some discount on new releases). I used to be very friendly with a model shop owner who was always complaining about why so many shops offered huge discounts on new releases as his view was the initial honeymoon period of a new release was when he could sell them at SRP or near to SRP, and that discounts should ramp up depending on how long product hung around. You can get some excellent discounts from German shops if you look at older releases. That might encourage people to wait for the discounting to kick in. I must admit, I seldom rush out to buy models in the initial flurry of new release anymore. A few years ago I did buy when models came out as there was a period where if you blinked you missed it, but production levels and/or demand seems to have returned to a level where things are available without having to pre-order everything and buy as soon as they’re released. That is probably no more of a commercial problem for retailers than creating a culture where the market decides that they are entitled to a significant discount from day one.

[JSpencer]

On discounting, I think in some ways German shops are more switched on than ours as they seem to discount older stock to encourage sales to get rid of it rather than offering big discounts on new releases (although many German shops do offer some discount on new releases). I used to be very friendly with a model shop owner who was always complaining about why so many shops offered huge discounts on new releases as his view was the initial honeymoon period of a new release was when he could sell them at SRP or near to SRP, and that discounts should ramp up depending on how long product hung around. You can get some excellent discounts from German shops if you look at older releases. That might encourage people to wait for the discounting to kick in. I must admit, I seldom rush out to buy models in the initial flurry of new release anymore. A few years ago I did buy when models came out as there was a period where if you blinked you missed it, but production levels and/or demand seems to have returned to a level where things are available without having to pre-order everything and buy as soon as they’re released. That is probably no more of a commercial problem for retailers than creating a culture where the market decides that they are entitled to a significant discount from day one.

 

A few years ago (say about 8 years back), the models in question were about half the price of what they are now too. So buying fleets of classes when released was not an issue. I am much more prudent now, but still saw myself order a few USA tanks (though this mean't no new J94), a few Adams radials and a few Original Merchant Navies (I had to drop the Hattons King though). I will probably for two 2-HAPs but have not placed the order yet as the price is unknown.

 

Likewise, I should be snapping up all blue HALs and EPBs which are at clearance prices right now, but have targeted the money on those new classes coming out or in the pipe that I do not have rather than all blue repeats of what I do have. So consequently the new items are stopping me jumping on the bargain items, where as before, I would have had both.

[The Stationmaster]

The issue of duplication has always been part of the hobby scene I think. And it is not always bad, sometimes companies make models of the same prototype but aim their product at different segments, an example being the Hornby Mk.1 which offers a good but basic model alongside the Bachmann model. In some cases, a prototype is significant enough to mean that a full range manufacturer will see inclusion of it within their range as desirable regardless of whether a rival company makes it. I think there is a tendency to see sinister ulterior motives in duplication yet whilst there may be something in that in some cases I tend to believe (perhaps naively) that in most cases it is either unintended or based on normal product decision making. If looking at other markets, duplication is normal in Europe, the USA and Japan for mainstream prototypes, less so for the more niche offerings, which makes sense. Often this duplication will be of the type we see with Mk.1 coaches, in some cases it is duplication within a company. For example Roco make a Br103 and their sister company Fleischmann make a Br103 which is equivalent to a lower priced railroad type offering. Either way, I don’t believe some form of cartel arrangement where manufacturers agree who gets what piece of the pie would be positive (even if such an idea was legal, which it isn’t).

On discounting, I think in some ways German shops are more switched on than ours as they seem to discount older stock to encourage sales to get rid of it rather than offering big discounts on new releases (although many German shops do offer some discount on new releases). I used to be very friendly with a model shop owner who was always complaining about why so many shops offered huge discounts on new releases as his view was the initial honeymoon period of a new release was when he could sell them at SRP or near to SRP, and that discounts should ramp up depending on how long product hung around. You can get some excellent discounts from German shops if you look at older releases. That might encourage people to wait for the discounting to kick in. I must admit, I seldom rush out to buy models in the initial flurry of new release anymore. A few years ago I did buy when models came out as there was a period where if you blinked you missed it, but production levels and/or demand seems to have returned to a level where things are available without having to pre-order everything and buy as soon as they’re released. That is probably no more of a commercial problem for retailers than creating a culture where the market decides that they are entitled to a significant discount from day one.

 

Alas that culture you refer to is really a consequence of certain members of the retail trade using a business model based on very deep discounting and high sales volume.  That model has largely (fortunately in my view) been largely killed off by the manufacturers but it did a lot of harm by encouraging misconceptions about price which now are further exacerbated by manufacturers raising their prices and changing trade margins for various reasons.

[faa77]

Does anybody have any vague idea when the Bitumen conical TTA will arrive??

[Guest]

Does anybody have any vague idea when the Bitumen conical TTA will arrive??

 

I fear you may have asked that question in the wrong thread. Try searching for a thread relating to Bachmann product announcements. I'm sure there was one somewhere.

Oh, wait... it's this one. Very brave of you asking an on-topic question! Good luck.

[it's-er]

The Bachmann Collectors Club annual Members Day is tomorrow Saturday 3 September. I hope some of us are going, and can report back, especially if they show any new models we haven't already seen! And for any new announcement. Wasn't it at this event several years ago that they announced the Webb Coal tank? So possibly .....

 

John

[9402 Fredrick]

I'm hoping it's a retooled GWR 68xx or a GWR 16xx.

[Hilux5972]

A GWR 68xx? Why do we need a retooled grange? Hornbys one is fantastic. Did you mean the 78xx manor?

[MatthewCarty]

A GWR 68xx? Why do we need a retooled grange? Hornbys one is fantastic. Did you mean the 78xx manor?

Add a large prairie to that list!

[9402 Fredrick]

A GWR 68xx? Why do we need a retooled grange? Hornbys one is fantastic. Did you mean the 78xx manor?

I did mean the 78xx. Sorry, was a bit tired when typing that. Anyways, where is this years collectors club meeting being held at?

[Guest spet0114]

The Bachmann Collectors Club annual Members Day is tomorrow Saturday 3 September. I hope some of us are going, and can report back, especially if they show any new models we haven't already seen! And for any new announcement. Wasn't it at this event several years ago that they announced the Webb Coal tank? So possibly .....

John

Any news yet?