Bachmann 2016 Announcements

[jjb1970]

I repeat - not for the first time - Bachmann are in the business to make as much money as possible; it's called capitalism.

 

If they've over-egged their prices then there'll be a reckoning; if they haven't, then they'll succeed in their prime objective !

 

End of story - no end of arguing and complaining will make any difference whatsoever.

I agree with that and have no issue with Bachmann charging what they want. However I do think that Bachmann made a rod for their own back with the reasons for these rises, in my opinion they'd have been wise to follow the advice that barristers tend to offer their expert witnesses, keep answers as short as possible and do not offer anything that has not been directly asked for on the basis that the more you say the more opportunities you're offering the other side to spot holes and dispute your evidence.

[Andy Hayter]

My dad doubled my weekly allowance if I saved it up to buy something and it still took ages to save up for a Triang-Hornby coach or wagon. As for a loco, they were only ever birthday or Christmas presents.

 

BTW, Sorry to nitpick but 2/6 was 12.5p.

 

2/6  was 12.5p when there was still a 1/2p - today it is rounded up to 13p - such is inflation

[Hilux5972]

So why haven't we seen the same astronomical price rises from Dapol, Oxford, Hornby et al?

This isn't about Chinese workers wages. I won't begrudge anybody a decent wage. It's about why Bachmann are charging nearly twice the price for a wagon than a similar product from their competitors which are also manufactured in China. If we were seeing the same increases across the board then fine you would buy it.

Trust me I will pay the price for my hobby but, I'm not being taken for a mug. Hence why I've got a rake of RMC hoppers on order but Peak Forest wouldn't be Peak Forest without a rake of these.

I believe we have from Hornby, over quite a few years there have been small increases in their prices so it doesn't seem so major. Bachmann have obviously absorbed the price changes for as long as possible and now it is so unsustainable to the point that they have had to make a major price change.

[GordonC]

I think there must be an awful lot more being added on now than just costs price rises. i'd fear Bachmann are pricing themselves out of the market from some of the recent RRPs

[Marcus 37]

So much angst to so little effect !!

 

I repeat - not for the first time - Bachmann are in the business to make as much money as possible; it's called capitalism.

 

If they've over-egged their prices then there'll be a reckoning; if they haven't, then they'll succeed in their prime objective !

 

End of story - no end of arguing and complaining will make any difference whatsoever.

 

Is their NOTHING whatsoever to talk about Bachmann's 2016 announcements except pricing ?

 

........... and we wonder why this forum is increasingly regarded as the province of the wingeing brigade.

 

Wake up, smell the coffee, and get on with life !!

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

Some of us smelt the coffee and would just like to know the reason why their pricing is so excessive compared with other manufacturers. Don't know what period you model but compare Dapols HIA hopper with Bachmanns JGA. The Dapol wagon is by far the superior model especially with its cast metal chassis yet half the price of the Bachmann JGA which is now about 12 years old. They keep coming up with the same old about the older models are more labour intensive. Could you imagine say a car manufacture still producing an older model and charging more for it as it is more labour intensive. They wouldn't sell a lot would they. Take my car, a BMW 3 series. Still basically the same car underneath for the last ten years. It's been modernised but has the price gone up 20% every year. No. If you apply the same principles to everything you've ever bought in life you would be a lot richer now and more fool you. Perhaps have a good sniff of your cuppa in the morning.

[Ozexpatriate]

So why haven't we seen the same astronomical price rises from Dapol, Oxford, Hornby et al?

Many of us here are afflicted with what I'll call medium term memory loss.  It's not a medical condition. I suspect it's just human nature. We project a stasis on top of the present status quo and forget that things were actually different not so very long ago. Arguably they were just the same, only the names were different.

 

There was a time, not so very long ago where many RMwebbers rushed to their keyboards to grind little virtual axes about why should Hornby increase their prices while Bachmann did not.

 

I'm sure there are better examples, but the Google bot found this page.

[Steve Purves]

Price wibble again!

[Ozexpatriate]

I repeat - not for the first time - Bachmann are in the business to make as much money as possible; it's called capitalism.

One model railway company is solvent and was profitable in CY2015.  Barring an asteroid impact or the world being plunged into economic chaos they will continue to do business in 2017.

 

Another model railway company is operating only at the pleasure of their bankers. Whether they will be open for business in 2017 remains to be seen.

 

I wonder who is pricing their products more effectively?

[Marcus 37]

Many of us here are afflicted with what I'll call medium term memory loss. It's not a medical condition. I suspect it's just human nature. We project a stasis on top of the present status quo and forget that things were actually different not so very long ago.

 

There was a time, not so very long ago where many RMwebbers rushed to their keyboards to grind little virtual axes about why should Hornby increase their prices while Bachmann did not.

 

I'm sure there are better examples, but the Google bot found this page.

Find a quote from me about Hornby prices. Never had a problem with Hornby whatsoever. No memory loss here mate.

[Marcus 37]

Well Dapol seem to be doing OK for themselves.

[Ozexpatriate]

Find a quote from me about Hornby prices. Never had a problem with Hornby whatsoever. No memory loss here mate.

So I take it you missed this one:

 

I have been looking through various model shop web pages with the intention of placing some advance orders for Hornby's 2008 Class 56 releases and have noticed a massive price rise over the first 4 DCC ready ones. 2008 Class 56 RRP = £116.50, 2007 Class 56 RRP = £95.00 so the average price of a 2008 release is about £95.00 against £76.50 for a 2007 one. How can Hornby justify a 22.5% (approx) price rise. The Class 60 and 31 have only risen £5.75 on the RRP. Looks like I won't be buying any this year at that price.

(My emphasis.)

 

There were plenty more like this, and this was before the bottom fell out of Hornby's world when Sanda Kan failed late in 2008.

 

Well Dapol seem to be doing OK for themselves.

Out of politeness, I am compelled to ask you whether your comment was serious.

[PaulRhB]

Also Bachmann have to answer to Kader as to why the Germans will pay higher prices for their Liliput range. These aren't enthusiasts who own the company even if the guys running it at Barwell are. I've said before that the owners will just say to that arm " match their profitability or we will produce more of that and drop this". When these were family owned companies they could make decisions with a bit of heart, as soon as shareholders and investment  companies drive the business the only heart is for ethical issues that make the brand look bad and affect sales. If they can produce half the stuff at double the price and use the manufacturing capacity for other products they will be happy no matter how upset modellers get. The only way to stop them is another company deciding to undercut them with an identical model forcing the prices back down or causing them to decide to move out of the market

[Guest]

Such a shame I can't set up some kind of alert to let me know when someone on this thread actually talks about a 2016 product announcement. Some folk will complain about prices. Others will retaliate with "It is what it is - deal with it". Pistols will be drawn, a virtual duel will be fought and then the thread gets locked. I'll have a tenner on that scenario, please.

 

It's the 30th anniversary of NSE folks... be 2HAPpy!

[micklner]

Also Bachmann have to answer to Kader as to why the Germans will pay higher prices for their Liliput range. These aren't enthusiasts who own the company even if the guys running it at Barwell are. I've said before that the owners will just say to that arm " match their profitability or we will produce more of that and drop this". When these were family owned companies they could make decisions with a bit of heart, as soon as shareholders and investment  companies drive the business the only heart is for ethical issues that make the brand look bad and affect sales. If they can produce half the stuff at double the price and use the manufacturing capacity for other products they will be happy no matter how upset modellers get. The only way to stop them is another company deciding to undercut them with an identical model forcing the prices back down or causing them to decide to move out of the market

 

You are probably correct in their business ethos. Sadly they have picked a very bad financial time for making such delusional decisions if indeed true.

 

People will will simply not be able or willing to pay the prices and Bachmann will die .

 

There are plenty of other companies who are now arriving or will arrive in the future to take their place. Personaly I can afford the prices, but I will simply do without as they are not worth the money being asked.

[Dunsignalling]

Dunno what all the fuss is about.

 

I completed my fleet of Mk1 coaches about 8 years ago and I've now got more vans, 16T minerals and brake vans than I'll ever honestly need. I can't remember buying more than three Bachmann locos in the same year for ages and it's usually only one or two.

 

None of the above has anything to do with prices, Bachmann just don't make much that I want - Hornby do more of that and attract the lion's share of my spend as a result. My expected blue-box shopping list for 2016, unless they spring some surprises on us, is a Wickham Trolley, four tank wagons (I've decided the Warflat is probably mythical), two locos that should arrive and one that might plus two Thompson coaches to add to my mixed cross-country set.

 

On here, many grouse about price rises, but are they predominantly the bulk-buyers or one-of everything collectors who thought that the days of greatly increased quality at unchanged or only modestly increased prices that followed the initial off-shoring of production would go on forever? They couldn't - one effect of globalisation is that earnings across the world for similar work will converge. Admittedly, Chinese ones are getting a governmental shove in that direction which will be distorting the process but Bachmann UK aren't in a position to move production elsewhere unless their parent company does.

 

I suspect that there is an element of testing what the market will stand about what's been happening to RRP's, but I have a feeling they'll only steady, not decrease in the next year or two.

 

More occasional purchasers like myself, who buy models to fit a chosen theme, do notice, but perhaps flinch less.  

 

John

[cctransuk]

I think there must be an awful lot more being added on now than just costs price rises. i'd fear Bachmann are pricing themselves out of the market from some of the recent RRPs

 

So be it !!!

 

I don't believe that anyone from Bachmann is sitting wringing their hands because the usual suspects at RMweb are continually wingeing that their prices are too high.

 

.... and they're certainly not going to explain and justify their business strategy here !!

 

The complainers can continue to bore us all to death, and in the process diminish the reputation of this forum, but it won't affect Bachmann prices in the slightest.

 

The only thing that will do that is if the prices do prove to be more than the market will stand - then there'll be a big boost in the postings to Bargain Hunters thread,

 

Please - just accept what you can't influence, and wait to find out whether you were right or wrong.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[The Stationmaster]

Some of us smelt the coffee and would just like to know the reason why their pricing is so excessive compared with other manufacturers. Don't know what period you model but compare Dapols HIA hopper with Bachmanns JGA. The Dapol wagon is by far the superior model especially with its cast metal chassis yet half the price of the Bachmann JGA which is now about 12 years old. They keep coming up with the same old about the older models are more labour intensive. Could you imagine say a car manufacture still producing an older model and charging more for it as it is more labour intensive. They wouldn't sell a lot would they. Take my car, a BMW 3 series. Still basically the same car underneath for the last ten years. It's been modernised but has the price gone up 20% every year. No. If you apply the same principles to everything you've ever bought in life you would be a lot richer now and more fool you. Perhaps have a good sniff of your cuppa in the morning.

 

The reason is amazingly simple - Kader, Bachmann's parent company, were making whacking great losses on their model railway business and there is  no doubt at all that Bachmann UK prices were giveaways for what they were offering.  So the prices were raised at the same time that inflationary etc pressures were increasing costs in China.

 

Add to that the equally simple fact that the UK model railway market is relatively small (very much so compared with the USA) and that competition for Bachmann has been fairly limited due to Hornby's supply problems and other woes (note - another company which manufactures model railways also losing money, hmm - just as Dapol have been).  Then chuck in the continuing relative decline in the international value of the £ (probably not helped by the abysmal trade gap with the country sucking in imports it can't afford because we don't sell enough overseas) and what many folk are talking of as a contracting market (but definitely a changing one) and price rises become inevitable, the only question mark is over the amount or percentage by which they will rise over any stated period.

 

Then along come the various commissioners - I don't notice much moaning about their prices but clearly they have to sell everything at a profit otherwise they will cease commissioning and maybe the big boys also noticed that fact and latched onto it.  Finally Oxfordrail - new kid on the block so how do you get yourself established in the market - simples, price;  also a fairly small concern so therefore overheads are lower and aiming for volume they keep the price down (thing might change in the longer term of course?).

 

Sp Bachmann prices have risen, Bachmann prices might keep on rising but at least they give retailers a decent trade discount and that allows retailers to pass on a discount to us.  Nothing more to add - we are where we are and loads of moaning is hardly likely to change the simple facts of economics (although not buying things which you can't afford might have an impact - but it might not be the one we wish for).

[Black 5 Bear]

The list price for a Hornby BR Brake Van is £16.99  when the comparable one from Bachmann one for £25.50 unless we are due a major price rise from Hornby!

 

Mark Saunders

I've just bought two of the Hornby super detail 20t vans in BR bauxite. Compared with the Bachmann offering, this is a far superior model. If you can source one they are excellent and retail between £13.50 - £16.00 !

[No Decorum]

One model railway company is solvent and was profitable in CY2015.  Barring an asteroid impact or the world being plunged into economic chaos they will continue to do business in 2017.

 

Another model railway company is operating only at the pleasure of their bankers. Whether they will be open for business in 2017 remains to be seen.

 

I wonder who is pricing their products more effectively?

I think that the world is in economic chaos.

[Dunsignalling]

 

 

 (although not buying things which you can't afford might have an impact - but it might not be the one we wish for).

If everybody did that across the board (not confined solely to model railways) the entire world economy which, under the stewardship of the "Masters of the Universe" in Wall Street, has essentially become a gargantuan game of Musical Chairs, would collapse.

[Butler Henderson]

Whilst people are complaining about Bachmann prices others are questioning Hornbys finances; could it that Hornby have priced some models too low. Hornby do now have an obvious advantage in using a number of suppliers so there will be a degree of competitive pricing at the supplier level. Disagree that older models should be cheaper; if they have more bits and more complex assembly they will cost more and the only way round that is to retool a less complex assembled model. Maybe part of the slowness in the appearance of new models from Bachmann now is partly down to assessing the complexity of the model and whether any simplification of it can be done, one loco that could certainly do with being simplified in its tooling is the rubix cube assembly of the Standard 4 tank.

[SRman]

...  if they have more bits and more complex assembly they will cost more and the only way round that is to retool a less complex assembled model. ...

 

I have a great idea: let's suggest they do something called, say, "design clever", where we cut back all those add on bits and just mould them on. Wot? Wot do you mean, "It's been done."?

 

    

[Butler Henderson]

I have a great idea: let's suggest they do something called, say, "design clever", where we cut back all those add on bits and just mould them on. Wot? Wot do you mean, "It's been done."?

 

 

Trouble with Hornbys add ons in particular is that the plastic is that fragile / brittle they typically go missing; spent a good few frustrating minutes trying to find my bag of 4mm whistles (to no avail yet) to replace that which has broken on my T9. Do not want moulded details that should be clearly a part in their own right but equally they should be of appropriate materials - if that means paying an extra quid for a metal whistle, fine. I picked on the Bachmann Standard 4 tank as an example as having taken one apart it seemed to be that their ought to have been a simpler way of putting it together and a simpler way of getting the body off, it would only need slight retooling to allow for the boiler top to be a separately fitted part which when removed gave access to the motor and dcc socket without having to take the whole body off together with the minefield of pipework. As it is I have left an internal screw off which means the boiler top, cab front and roof is held on by one screw only making access to the motor/decoder very simple - still think I've got something wrong with the pipework arrangement when I put it back together.

[JSpencer]

Whilst people are complaining about Bachmann prices others are questioning Hornbys finances; could it that Hornby have priced some models too low. Hornby do now have an obvious advantage in using a number of suppliers so there will be a degree of competitive pricing at the supplier level. Disagree that older models should be cheaper; if they have more bits and more complex assembly they will cost more and the only way round that is to retool a less complex assembled model. Maybe part of the slowness in the appearance of new models from Bachmann now is partly down to assessing the complexity of the model and whether any simplification of it can be done, one loco that could certainly do with being simplified in its tooling is the rubix cube assembly of the Standard 4 tank.

Bachmann is stuck with the parent factory which is now located in one of the more labour expensive areas. Were it not for their financial problems now causing Hornby's program to drag, they would have a serious tactical advantage right now.

Bachmann and it's consumers (I.e us) are having to find our feet with the current price range. The problem is part of the market is prepared to pay the higher amounts for the extra details while others clearly cannot.

Another part is being clearly very selective. I do not need a 6 car pullman at that price however nice it is, however I will go for the 2-HAP which fits in with my personally interests. Had we been at say 2010 prices, doubtless I would have brought both.

 

Speaking of the 2-HAP, it seems that it still has not entered the CAD stag according to the latest club magazine so I guess we will not see it this year. Still a nice NSE 2-EPB to keep me happy though...

[jjb1970]

Something to remember is that nobody needs a model train. We may want a model train and have an intense desire for the things, but none of us needs them. My own view is that the answer to rising prices is to buy less and be selective, alternatively buy something else or increase the amount you are willing to spend (if you are able). There are possibilities for manufacturers to suppress price inflation but some of them would probably not be that popular, for example applying the model that Locomotion use in manufacturing to pre-order only and with a deposit taken up front with a direct sales only policy (i.e. no more distribution via regular model shops). That allowed them to release a world class model in the APT-E at a bargain price, if people really want cheaper models then that is certainly one means of doing it. Personally I do not like that model and would rather pay the premium needed by manufacturers to cover their risks of unsold stock, pay the retailers margin etc, but that is just me.

As the Stationmaster has pointed out, the current Bachmann price rises are almost certainly the result of a number of factors. Some of these are outside their control, some are within their control and some of it is they're just charging what they believe the market will support. I do think they were under pricing before, and as with any instance of selling below what was probably the appropriate price point, when a correction is made it looks much worse as it is not only an inflationary uplift but an actual change in price point. They will have been looking at the returns and pricing in their other markets and asking the question of why the UK is priced so low. Nothing wrong with any of that. What I do object to is the way they've wrapped it all in a simplistic argument about labour costs as that is just one factor of many and to me is rather disingenuous.

The price rises have had the odd effect of pushing me to spend much more on models, but not on UK RTR. I've voted with my feet so to speak. That is not intended as having a go at Bachmann etc as my honest opinion is they can charge what they like and I'll make my own decision whether the models are worth it, it is purely a retailer - purchaser commercial relationship with no hard feelings either way. I just made a decision to return to my older passion of US and Japanese brass HO, yes it is more expensive but it is also rather special.