More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[Compound2632]

Just now, Andy Hayter said:

We seem to have focused heavily on beer; but do we have any evidence that that was the cargo in the barrels?  Barrels were widely used for shipping small quantities of all sorts of other goods.  China (packed in straw), pots and pans, fish (salted and cured),  oil (probably whale not black gold) etc..

 

the reason for the widespread use of barrels is that they are easily moved in the days before pallets and a fork lift or pallet truck.   Tip it slightly and you can twirl it ( with skill) down the street.  Put it on its side and you can roll it.  

 

I could imagine that as beer barrels became old and perhaps less liquid tight, they might be sold on for the use of non-liquid products.

 

Does this explain the somewhat tatty state of some of these barrels?

 

For Sheffield Park, vide supra.

 

But otherwise you are quite right.

 

Vinegar from Worcester:

 

 

[Hill, Evans & Co. Vinegar Works. Embedded link: https://cfow.org.uk/picture.php?/4168]

 

Nails from Rubery.

 

Statuary - or is it a corpse? - from Paris: The Cask, Freeman Wills Crofts (Collins, 1920).

[WFPettigrew]

3 hours ago, jamie92208 said:

Beadman built wagons

Indeed, of course! 

[41516]

 

On 22/03/2024 at 11:51, hmrspaul said:

i liked the comment about delivering to bottling plants...But, Burton also did its own bottling and the crates of ale would be delivered all over

 

Bottling, or obvious reasons of transport always seems to have been at a more local scale until road transport became dominant and you would think, safe enough to prevent high levels of wastage.  Ind Coupe and Allsops both had smaller bottling plants and did have a number of Rail tanks, presumably moving beer to or from their Romford Brewery. They built a substantial bottling plant adjacent to Burton station immediately after WW2, but the company was already well on the way towards road as the primary means of movement of beer.

 

http://breweryhistory.com/wiki/images/9/97/Ind_Coope_Bottling_1949_07.jpg

 

There are two videos of the last day of operation of the Ind Coupe bottling plant on Youtube.  Beware of the large number of Page 3 pinups in the video!

 

Heading back to the pre-group era, here are just some easily available labels found online give an idea of the variety of locations where Bass was bottled. Some of this will be for reasons of practicality, some might well be part of the Bass free trade principles, creating agreement with local brewers to bottle and supply beer into their pubs.  Again, the assumption would be that the local agency offices would control this operation, beer bottled and then either distributed by the smaller companies, or returned to the ale stores for supply to clubs, sports facilities, off licences etc

 

(one double - bah!)

 

Following the pivot to road transport and closure of the Bass internal rail network in the mid 1960s, the trends had already moved towards kegged and canned beers and Bass Charrington (as it was at the time) looked to build a new facility in Runcorn to handle bottling and canning, so again, no large scale bottling plant in Burton for Bass.

 

On 22/03/2024 at 11:51, hmrspaul said:

The publican would have paid for the barrel separately to the beer, and would get that payment back when returning the empty barrel - so important for him to turn round the empty and get it back.

 

This is from a order form that was on ebay (hence just the snip) from Bass' Liverpool agency office, July 1901 for a single barrel of Bass ordered by Yate's Castle Brewery in Birkenhead.   Casks charged for if not returned.

 

 

 

The address at the top is for the agency office at 17 Fenwick Street, which is still there, a very handsome building, as shown below at approximately the same time as the order, along with a few more examples of Bass' ale stores.  (from "A Visit to Bass' Brewery Burton-on-Trent, published 1902, republished by the Bass Museum 1977)

 

 

 

 

Just so there's a little balance, here's an brief article on another substantial ale store, this time Salt's alongside St Pancras.

Edited March 24 by 41516

[hmrspaul]

11 minutes ago, 41516 said:

 

Just so there's a little balance, here's an brief article on another substaintial ale store, this time Salt's alongside St Pancras.

  Is Salts, St. Pancras the origin of the main entrance to the Eurostar terminal https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/eurostar/e31780acf  ?

 

Paul

Edited March 24 by hmrspaul

[41516]

Yes, the same building on Pancras Road.

[ICH]

On 22/03/2024 at 19:59, Compound2632 said:

 

For Sheffield Park, vide supra.

 

But otherwise you are quite right.

 

Vinegar from Worcester:

 

 

[Hill, Evans & Co. Vinegar Works. Embedded link: https://cfow.org.uk/picture.php?/4168]

 

Nails from Rubery.

 

Statuary - or is it a corpse? - from Paris: The Cask, Freeman Wills Crofts (Collins, 1920).

Is it me but there is something odd about that wagon. The Buffer does not line up with the wooden frame. The buffer is completely wrong looks like a selfcontained buffer. I wonder if its a 2 plank wooden body and frame sitting on something like a Serpent?

Edited March 24 by ICH

[Penlan]

25 minutes ago, 41516 said:

.....  Beware of the large number of Page 3 pinups in the video!

'Beware?  perhaps 'Be aware of...... ',
Maybe I'm of an age where these don't scare me any more 😇

Edited March 24 by Penlan

[41516]

Youtube normally gets a bit prissy about nudity in videos (or is supposed to, at least), but these videos haven't been picked up by the AI bots.

 

Don't want anyone to get a clip round the ear when the video cuts to a wall covered in topless models. "Research" might not be a good excuse...

Edited March 24 by 41516

[Penlan]

On 22/03/2024 at 19:59, Compound2632 said:

 

 

It seems some of the barrels available in 4mm scale are more or less correct with the thick/heavy bands to them.
The Vat supports must be under some tremendous pressure, looking at the size of those Vats.

Edited March 24 by Penlan

[Compound2632]

13 minutes ago, ICH said:

Is it me but there is something odd about that wagon. The Buffer does not line up with the wooden frame. The buffer is completely wrong looks like a selfcontained buffer. I wonder if its a 2 plank wooden body and frame sitting on something like a Serpent?

 

i see what you mean. My impression is that the buffer-like object we're seeing is not the wagon buffer.  

[ICH]

1 minute ago, Compound2632 said:

 

i see what you mean. My impression is that the buffer-like object we're seeing is not the wagon buffer.  

Would we not see a buffer on what is the end of the wooden frame? 

[ICH]

13 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

i see what you mean. My impression is that the buffer-like object we're seeing is not the wagon buffer.  

 

Edited March 24 by ICH

[drduncan]

On 22/03/2024 at 19:59, Compound2632 said:

 

For Sheffield Park, vide supra.

 

But otherwise you are quite right.

 

Vinegar from Worcester:

 

 

[Hill, Evans & Co. Vinegar Works. Embedded link: https://cfow.org.uk/picture.php?/4168]

 

Nails from Rubery.

 

Statuary - or is it a corpse? - from Paris: The Cask, Freeman Wills Crofts (Collins, 1920).

And a tantalising glimpse of part of a GWR 2 plank wagon….

[Compound2632]

This postcard view of Delph has provoked some discussion on the L&NWR Society Facebook group:

 

 

There's a Coal Tank lurking, a D17 6-wheel brake and coupled to it I think a D4 open, with the long lever for its single brake block dropped. But that's about it for Wessery. Midland wagons in abundance: front row, from left to right, 3 x 8-ton highside with end door, D351, 2 x 8-ton highside, D299, and, on the coal drops, 8-ton hopper bottom, D343. The two Midland wagons to the left of the next row are bigger, they're 12-ton mineral wagons, I think D352 rather than the later D673, chiefly on the grounds that the photo must be pre-Great War, with several dumb-buffer PO wagons in evidence. D352 were built 1906-1910, so I'd say the photo is c. 1910 +/- 2 or 3 years. As to the PO wagons, there are several from Staveley and Sheepbridge, several of which have cupboard doors. The Midland PO registers reveal that both companies built their own wagons and several batches are recorded as having cupboard doors. My guess is that the Midland wagons are all in coal traffic and have come along with the Staveley and Sheepridge wagons from Derbyshire.

 

As to the others: J.W. Fry is apparently a coal merchant based in nearby Greenfield and New Moss Colliery was nearby at Audenshaw. Here's another of their wagons:

 

 

[Tameside Council Facebook page.]

 

There are another four wagons with what I think is a common inscription on the top two planks - including the freshly painted wagon at the right-hand end of the front row. My best attempt at reading that is "WATTBOTTOM BRAN & GOLF" - I hope others might be able to do better!

[65179]

A bit late for much of the discussion on this thread, but can anyone help with identifying what this grease axleboxed 5 plank wagon pictured at Barnsley Jct. in October 1950 might be please? It's a crop from the edge of an image so the quality isn't great I'm afraid.

 

 

Many thanks,

Simon

[Compound2632]

1 minute ago, 65179 said:

A bit late for much of the discussion on this thread, but can anyone help with identifying what this grease axleboxed 5 plank wagon pictured at Barnsley Jct. in October 1950 might be please? It's a crop from the edge of an image so the quality isn't great I'm afraid.

 

Beyond it being a pre-1923 private owner wagon, I doubt there's more to be said - It's a shame the photo isn't just a little sharper to confirm the capacity marking above the number but my money would be on 10 tons. Curved raised ends and diagonal straps inside the side sheeting, with the bottom end bolted to the solebar. 

 

Any other offers?

[corneliuslundie]

Only not a Gloster V hanger

J

Edited March 24 by corneliuslundie

[Compound2632]

25 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

There are another four wagons with what I think is a common inscription on the top two planks - including the freshly painted wagon at the right-hand end of the front row. My best attempt at reading that is "WATTBOTTOM BRAN & GOLF" - I hope others might be able to do better!

 

On a second stare, I think the next line of writing reads "COAL                 FACTORS".

[Compound2632]

1 minute ago, corneliuslundie said:

Only now a Gloster V hanger

J

 

D'y'think? Looks vertical on the solebar to me?

 

Raised ends not a typical Gloucester feature?

[MarcD]

They are a version of the Ellis axle boxes but with a round bottom rather than the usual flat bottom. Apart from them being fitted to some PO wagons the highland used them on their 12ton loco coal wagons.

Marc

 

[corneliuslundie]

Oops. I meant not a Gloster wagon.

J

[65179]

Thanks to all those who responded to my query. I'm slightly confused by what looks to be an M prefix to the number. It's quite different to the Wirksworth Quarry absorbed PO shown here:

in the M36XXX series.

 

Should I assume the ex-PO in my first photo is 9ft wb and 15ft 6in-ish given the very different relationship between axleguard and headstock to the wagon above?

 

Simon

 

 

Edited March 25 by 65179

[Nick Lawson]

14 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

"WATTBOTTOM BRAN & GOLF"

Winterbottom Bros & Co Ltd? (indistinct example in group scene Turton vol9 p6)

[Compound2632]

49 minutes ago, Nick Lawson said:

Winterbottom Bros & Co Ltd? (indistinct example in group scene Turton vol9 p6)

 

Excellent spot! On that wagon, Co Ltd is written CO LD with the O and D superscript with a dot or dash underneath - so the D is easily mistaken for F!

[Compound2632]

10 hours ago, 65179 said:

Thanks to all those who responded to my query. I'm slightly confused by what looks to be an M prefix to the number. It's quite different to the Wirksworth Quarry absorbed PO shown here:

in the M36XXX series.

 

Should I assume the ex-PO in my first photo is 9ft wb and 15ft 6in-ish given the very different relationship between axleguard and headstock to the wagon above?

 

Ah, I hadn't thought of it being a lime or limestone wagon, originally, in which case, as I understand it, it might well not have been requisitioned in 1939 and hence have evaded the P-prefix series. But I'm not well-up on this period. Larkin's Acquired Wagons Vol. 5 seems only to include such wagons built to the RCH 1923 specification. I think your suggested dimensions are about right though I think it may be as short as 15 ft over headstocks. Cambrian's Hurst Nelson wagon ref C52 might be a good starting point in 4 mm scale - scrape off the outside diagonal straps, trip the axleboxes to round-bottom shape, and straighten up the vee-hanger!