Abellio retain East Anglia Franchise

[phil-b259]

I think it's too early to say Phil. Apparently the vehicles are from bombardier thankfully not Siemens.

But if they want to do Norwich in an hour and a half I would have thought some sections would have to be 125mph

Personally I think the best solution would be Chiltern style rebuilding of the mkllls and 88s, but the public want new build even though they wouldn't know the difference

 

I was under the impression that the key to getting a 90 minute journey time had less to do with increasing the top speed and far more to do with removing speed restrictions caused by level crossings, awkwardly laid out junctions or inconveniently sited isolating sections.

 

However NR have repeatedly run into problems with the first of these by locals all along the route who are adamant that their crossings must stay.......(note the 'Berlin Wall' claims in one of the articles below)

 

http://www.eadt.co.uk/news/network_rail_seeks_to_close_30_crossings_in_suffolk_to_speed_up_trains_1_4548493

 

http://www.ipswichstar.co.uk/news/level_crossing_closures_could_split_communities_along_suffolk_s_london_rail_line_1_3912811

 

http://www.buryfreepress.co.uk/news/local/latest-news/meeting-after-threat-to-rail-crossings-1-6507329

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-30859201

[Wild Boar Fell]

Some good looking and interesting units (see link)

 

12 Car ARTICULATED sets too, for some units

 

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/passenger/single-view/view/stadler-and-bombardier-to-supply-trains-for-abellio-east-anglia-franchise.html

[Reorte]

Ha! I was getting pretty pissed a couple of weeks ago when temperatures reached the 30s outside, but people in the 365s were closing windows because they didn't want their hairstyles to get messed up...

 

Roll on the aircon!

If they can make a quiet aircon that would be great. It's one of those things which you really notice when it goes off (neutral sections on electrics demonstrate it well).

[Fenman]

If they can make a quiet aircon that would be great. It's one of those things which you really notice when it goes off (neutral sections on electrics demonstrate it well).

It's irrelevant to me: the train companies have abused their PA systems so much that I now always wear noise-cancelling headphones on every journey.

 

Paul

[Fenman]

Some good looking and interesting units (see link)

 

12 Car ARTICULATED sets too, for some units

 

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/passenger/single-view/view/stadler-and-bombardier-to-supply-trains-for-abellio-east-anglia-franchise.html

Fascinating: so it's the Stadlers that will service the Norwich InterCity and Stansted Express routes, with Bombardier providing the suburban people movers.

 

Paul

[Joseph_Pestell]

Fascinating: so it's the Stadlers that will service the Norwich InterCity and Stansted Express routes, with Bombardier providing the suburban people movers.

 

Paul

 

"Suburban" in this case being quite long distance: Southend, Southminster, Clacton, Harwich (?)

[Fenman]

"Suburban" in this case being quite long distance: Southend, Southminster, Clacton, Harwich (?)

For some reason I had assumed it would be Bombardier providing the "long-distance" expresses and Stadler supplying commuter trains, not the other way round. Though I'm also assuming Stadler are supplying the DMU replacements. Intriguing.

 

Paul

[nightstar.train]

For some reason I had assumed it would be Bombardier providing the "long-distance" expresses and Stadler supplying commuter trains, not the other way round. Though I'm also assuming Stadler are supplying the DMU replacements. Intriguing.

Paul

According to the railway gazette Stadler is indeed supplying the DMU replacements. Interestingly they're going to be a mix of 4 and 3 car electro diesels. That means some lines (like across the Norfolk broads, and to Newmarket) are going to be getting a massive upgrade from 1 car to 3 car! It's interesting that they're all electro diesel, can't see much running under the wires for a lot of them. But then I guess there is a lot to be said for fleet commonality. Will reduce maintenance costs a lot. I guess that's the same reason that they're getting rid of the nearly new Stanstead Express units.

[Edwin_m]

They are committed to having through trains from East Suffolk to Liverpool Street (again), Peterborough-Ipswich to run every hour and mostly extend to Colchester, Norwich-Cambridge to extend to Stansted and Sudbury services to Colchester.  All that presumably makes up enough running under the wires for the "regional" units to justify having bi-modes, and also raises some interesting questions about whether a new bi-mode is now economically competitive with a 30-year-old Sprinter. 

 

I imagine the 379s will find a home elsewhere on the network, but this announcement must also be the death sentence for virtually all of the big fleets of Mk3-based units. 

['CHARD]

Well, I fully expected this announcement sooner rather than later, and I suspected a radical fleet strategy, so it's a very exciting time to be in fleet/ ops/ maintenance and franchise mobilisation 

 

I can think of many very happy folk in the sector tonight.  And some rather troubled commercial bods at at least two RoSCos.  

[russ p]

Those units look like bloody trams not the type of replacement for a 90 surely?

As I said earlier the ideal solution would be rebuild the mkllls and have 88s on them

Also one of the reasons abellio got the franchise was according to that stupid Smith mp was to safeguard British jobs well half the new trains are Spanish. Why do these new Tory MPs talk to the public if they are stupid junior school pupils?

['CHARD]

Also one of the reasons abellio got the franchise was according to that stupid Smith mp was to safeguard British jobs well half the new trains are Spanish. 

 

Which trains are those?

[russ p]

The mainline ones are stadler

[east_anglian]

I wonder where the 360s will end up as they are presumably going to be replaced as well? Also as these Stadler EMUs are supposedly Intercity EMUs, will they contain a buffet? I would assume there will be some form of catering as AGA have only just taken on more staff to offer a trolley service in first class on London Norwich trains.

[phil-b259]

Which trains are those?

 

Anything being produced by Stadler - who don't have a presence in the UK or any plans to change that.

 

However, people also need to consider that the UKs current train building plants (Bombardier at Derby & Hiatchi in Newton Aycliffe) have won plenty of orders so will in fact be at full capacity and unable to take on any more work. (which is why some of the IEPs are still going to be built in Japan).

 

For any more new stock (over and above what Bombardier and Hitachi are already building) to be built in the UK, the simple fact is we need another manufacturer to set up a train building facility. However given our smaller loading gauge, the Brexit issue, and the fact that following the feast of orders currently being placed, UK demand for new stock will shrink quite dramatically means that setting up a UK operation is not on anyones agenda - hence the need to build some of the new Anglia order in Spain.

[Fenman]

...Also one of the reasons abellio got the franchise was according to that stupid Smith mp was to safeguard British jobs well half the new trains are Spanish. Why do these new Tory MPs talk to the public if they are stupid junior school pupils?

 

In fairness to him/her (though I'm not sure why I'm being fair to him/her), the DfT announcement doesn't mention any other supplier than Bombardier. In fact, it could be argued that their announcement is downright misleading [emphasis added]:

 

"A fully modernised rail service with British-built carriages ... is unveiled by the government today (10 August 2016). ...

 

"It will also deliver one of the biggest orders for British-built trains – almost £1 billion for 660 carriages from the Bombardier factory in Derby – as part of a contract that will secure 1,000 jobs into the next decade. ...

 

"Transport Secretary Chris Grayling said:...

 

Abellio’s decision will ensure our train building industry in Derby remains strong. ...

 

"Des McKeon UK Commercial Director at Bombardier Transportation said:

 

We’re delighted to be chosen, pending final contract signing, as the preferred supplier for new trains for the East Anglia franchise. ...

 

It’s a great endorsement of Bombardier’s next-generation AVENTRA train family, which offers maximum flexibility, to serve many different market requirements from metro to intercity."

 

No mention anywhere of Stadler.

 

Though I'm not sure why you think Stadler's trains will be built in Spain rather than in any of their other works (Switzerland, Germany, etc) - have I missed an announcement somewhere?

 

Paul

Edited August 10, 2016 by Fenman

['CHARD]

The mainline ones are stadler

 

...hmmmmm

 

Anything being produced by Stadler - who don't have a presence in the UK or any plans to change that.

 

- hence the need to build some of the new Anglia order in Spain.

 

....okay

 

 

No mention anywhere of Stadler.

 

Though I'm not sure why you think Stadler's trains will be built in Spain rather than in any of their other works (Switzerland, Germany, etc) - have I missed an announcement somewhere?

 

 

There we go!

 

The Stadler gen is in the Railway Gazette's reporting of the announcement.

[russ p]

Sorry I was just thinking about the 68 factory.

 

The thing with cloe Smith was that she was trying to make out she had sorted all this out herself

[Clay Country]

Those units look like bloody trams not the type of replacement for a 90 surely?

As I said earlier the ideal solution would be rebuild the mkllls and have 88s on them

Also one of the reasons abellio got the franchise was according to that stupid Smith mp was to safeguard British jobs well half the new trains are Spanish. Why do these new Tory MPs talk to the public if they are stupid junior school pupils?

About a third of the trains are Swiss, not Spanish. Just how much spare capacity will there be on British rolling stock production lines in 2018-2020? Derby will be busy building Aventras for Crossrail, Overground and Anglia. Hitachi has more 800s/801s/802s on order than it can put together at Newton Aycliffe, which will also be busy assembling 385s for Scotland.

 

Even if franchisees wanted all of their trains to be built in the UK, the demand for new rolling stock over the next four years is so high that it can only be met by a combination of domestic and overseas production.

 

Of course, loss of train building capacity is a symptom of the feast-and-famine pattern of rolling stock procurement in the UK. The most important thing is maintaining a consistent level of demand to keep the plants we have now busy in the future.

Edited August 10, 2016 by Clay Country

['CHARD]

About a third of the trains are Swiss, not Spanish. Just how much spare capacity will there be on British rolling stock production lines in 2018-2020? Derby will be busy building Aventras for Crossrail, Overground and Anglia. Hitachi has more 800s/801s/802s on order than it can put together at Newton Aycliffe, which will also be busy assembling 385s for Scotland.

 

Even if franchisees wanted all of their trains to be built in the UK, the demand for new rolling stock over the next four years is so high that it can only be met by a combination of domestic and overseas production.

 

Of course, loss of train building capacity is a symptom of the feast-and-famine pattern of rolling stock procurement in the UK. The most important thing is maintaining a consistent level of demand to keep the plants we have now busy in the future.

 

Add to this New Tube for London, which will tie up an entire factory.

[russ p]

So the best way to safeguard more jobs is to rebuild the mkllls and replace in 8 to 10 years time

[phil-b259]

Those units look like bloody trams not the type of replacement for a 90 surely?

As I said earlier the ideal solution would be rebuild the mkllls and have 88s on them

Also one of the reasons abellio got the franchise was according to that stupid Smith mp was to safeguard British jobs well half the new trains are Spanish. Why do these new Tory MPs talk to the public if they are stupid junior school pupils?

 

With respect, where exactly do you propose to build the balance of trains currently earmarked for Spanish construction. (Yes I know you have a preference for loco hauled solutions - but that was never going to happen with the Anglia franchise, the use of such an option for Northern / TPE in effect being a temporary / short term solution to the mounting delays to the Governments electrification plans)

 

While I understand your desire to 'by British' it is a well known fact that Bombardier and Hitachi have full order books thanks to all the new trains that have been ordered over the past couple of years.

 

So while he could have phrased it better, Mr Smith is not lying - British jobs have been safeguarded (although in truth with Bombardiers full order book I do wonder how many of them were at risk anyway). Yes it would be nice if he could have announced that lot more British train building jobs had been created - but that requires a new entrant to the UKs train building industry to set up shop here.

[phil-b259]

 

Though I'm not sure why you think Stadler's trains will be built in Spain rather than in any of their other works (Switzerland, Germany, etc) - have I missed an announcement somewhere?

 

 

 

OK, so make that somewhere "outside the UK" then - it doesn't change the point Russ was making.

Edited August 10, 2016 by phil-b259

[nightstar.train]

Those units look like bloody trams not the type of replacement for a 90 surely?

As I said earlier the ideal solution would be rebuild the mkllls and have 88s on them

 

Why? If you go for that solution you lose two coach lengths to the engine and the DVT. IF (and it's a big if) you could rebuild the DVT to include some passenger seats you'd maybe only lose 1 coach, or 1 1/2, but that's a lot of seats. These new units will increase passenger capacity at a stroke, without the need for platform lengthening &c. Also they are 12 car articulated units, so only have 13 bogies. Bogies are one of the most expensive parts to maintain, so you're cutting your costs there by about 40%. The Stadlers are also EMUs with distributed traction, so should accelerate a lot better than an engine with 10 coaches, so bringing better journey times and making the "Norwich in 90" easier.

Whilst Mk3s are lovely coaches, they are old. At least 30, many getting on for more. 30 years is the design lifespan for things like planes and trains, after that age it gets expensive to keep them going.

[newbryford]

Those units look like bloody trams not the type of replacement for a 90 surely?

As I said earlier the ideal solution would be rebuild the mkllls and have 88s on them

 

Why 88s? The diesel is of little use in passenger mode as it wouldn't be able to supply ETS at any decent power level whilst moving a train. It's intended as a "last-mile" mover in and out of unwired freight yards.

A straight electric loco would be a better option if they were intent on loco plus LHCS.

 

Cheers,

Mick