The Flying Scotsman BBC4 29 December 9PM

[Colin_McLeod]

What the Hell has East Enders got to do with the price of fish?

 

Ian mentioned it as an alternative TV programme instead of watching the Flying Scotsman.

[Hroth]

Ian mentioned it as an alternative TV programme instead of watching the Flying Scotsman.

To be honest, there's not much difference between Eastenders and any programme featuring the Flying Scotsman.

[Colin_McLeod]

To be honest, there's not much difference between Eastenders and any programme featuring the Flying Scotsman.

Please explain what you mean.

[Hroth]

Please explain what you mean.

Both are only of interest to their fans and everyone else has to put up with the pointless adulation.

[t-b-g]

It would be interesting to know what it actually has raised in the way of funds (for the NRM).  Clearly revenue for the NRM would derive from its hire to haul mainline excursions and its hire to the leisure/private Railways (such as the SVR) - plus possibly additionally in the case of the latter a share of the ticket sales?  These would appear to be the only direct revenue streams it could generate for the NRM apart from any other hires and, of course, filming and merchandising rights.  Opposite that income side of the balance sheet there would also be the cost side - presumably a fee to Riley's for operational/engineering support together with the cost of those consumables not funded by the hiring organisation plus general 'wear and tear'.

 

The nett result will presumably make a positive financial contribution to the NRM - does it show in their/the Science Museum's accounts and if so how much is it?  Additionally, and perhaps not all easy to calculate, is what it could well do for the museum in terms of linked/themed sales and as importantly what impact it might have had on visitor numbers through making the presence of the museum better known.  So there might well be a further plus side beyond any income it actually earns in hard cash.

 

You are quite right. There are various possible income streams. Not all the income generated will go to the NRM either. It will benefit the preserved railways or organisations hiring the loco. I know that the NYMR had a fantastic time financially while she was there and I am sure that others will have done the same. That sort of revenue really kills the argument that the money for FS was taken away from other preservation projects. If anything it has helped them if it has brought lots of extra people to preserved lines and they are likely to be people who would not have visited those lines on those days without 60103 being there.

 

I am not sure if the NRM has the ability to calculate (or the will to tell the world) just how much revenue a particular exhibit generates but it would be interesting to know if the information was available. Apart from anything else, the NRM has had a considerable amount of bad press from the whole Flying Scotsman restoration and it would be great for them to be able to say "Well it might have cost X but it has generated Y" I don't suppose for one minute that the museum would recoup all the costs but it would be very good if it could get the net cost right down, if only to take the wind out of the sails of some of the people who are constantly having digs at them.

[Steamport Southport]

It doesn't help that it has cost £6.8 million* and the vast majority has come from the taxpayer and National Lottery.

 

Then what happens when it needs another overhaul in a few years time?

 

 

No wonder every owner it's ever had has been glad to see the back of it, including British Railways who didn't even deem it worth saving.

 

 

 

*According to Steam Railway issue 459, but common knowledge.

 

 

 

Jason

[MarkC]

Yes, but...

 

Much of the last overhaul was to make good the damage that had been done by attempting to get Class 8 power out of an ageing Class 7 chassis - done as a commercial enterprise to make money. Some of it was effectively 'boy racer' stuff - oversized pistons in bored out cylinders; higher boiler pressure/output etc etc. No wonder the poor old girl was in need of major surgery. "Pimp my Ride" on rails...

 

Then there was the issue of reinstating the vacuum brakes - from what I heard, the gas-axe was used to cut away anything that was not required on an all-air braking system and was in the way.

 

OK, a fair bit of the work had to be redone, particularly the front end of the frames, once the rebuild had started, and that was something that should have been picked up earlier, but this was probably the biggest project ever tackled by the NRM team - and in fairness they were trying to keep costs down by doing much of the work 'in house'. Hindsight, eh...

 

The good news is that she's not going to be flogged hard with 600 tonne trains on challenging gradients, as she was following the previous overhaul, done in preparation for making money with a long term commercial agreement with VSOE. She's being looked after more. Yes, the loadings steadily increased as she did the summer York-Carlisle runs, but that was well controlled and on a route which wasn't as demanding for power as, for example, the S&C, Shap or the Surrey Hills. This will hopefully mean fewer nasty surprises at her next overhaul or two as well.

 

As she is, she's being seen by many more folk than in her previous service period, and in as close to authentic condition as is possible for her present shape, other than the corridor tender. The NRM and Rileys should be congratulated on her present condition.

 

Yes, it's been an expensive and time consuming job, but she is a locomotive that has fascinated 'normals' for many years, and does have a remarkable history, much of it in preservation, of course. And, of course, she was the first locomotive to be officially timed, with proof, such as it is, at 100mph, albeit only fleetingly. How many small boys and girls were inspired to take up model railways after receiving a "Flying Scotsman" train set for birthdays or Christmas?

 

Ultimately, she's a 'Marmite' locomotive in many ways, but had the NRM not bought her, I suspect that she would have disappeared abroad, never to be seen on these shores again, and that would have been a tragedy. No, she wasn't initially put on the preservation list; Mallard saw to that, and rightly so, in my opinion. There would have been too much duplication for an A3 and an A4, both Gresley Pacifics, to be part of the National Collection at the time  of withdrawal.

 

Should she have simply been 'stuffed and mounted'? Possibly with a new A3, a la "Tornado" constructed? That's a good question. Had the total bill been known at the start, perhaps so, but again, that's that pesky hindsight kicking in. Having said that, would crowds flock to see her sitting cold and lifeless, albeit gleaming, at York, Shildon or any other display area? I would say not. You can't compare "The Great Gathering" either - that was unique.

 

So, I am looking forward to the A1, A2, A3, A4 gathering, once Blue Peter emerges from Crewe. Now THAT will make this all worthwhile too. Indeed, it should also be combined with an HST and a Class 91/Mark 4 rake, plus the Stirling Single and the Ivatt Atlantivs. Now THERE is a lineup to savour

[wombatofludham]

Ian mentioned it as an alternative TV programme instead of watching the Flying Scotsman.

 

Trust me, I would no more watch East Whingers than anything starring the Flying Jockstrap.  I'd even watch Great Western Copper Kettles in preference, and they bring me out in boils. Fortunately I can receive Talking Pictures TV which frequently has films featuring rail action from the 1940s to the 1960s so neither East Enders nor the equally tiresome Gresley A3 (which by now must be the equivalent of Triggers Broom it's been done up so many times) are likely to be on my screen.

[wombatofludham]

Yes, but...

 

Much of the last overhaul was to make good the damage that had been done by attempting to get Class 8 power out of an ageing Class 7 chassis - done as a commercial enterprise to make money. Some of it was effectively 'boy racer' stuff - oversized pistons in bored out cylinders; higher boiler pressure/output etc etc. No wonder the poor old girl was in need of major surgery. "Pimp my Ride" on rails...

 

Then there was the issue of reinstating the vacuum brakes - from what I heard, the gas-axe was used to cut away anything that was not required on an all-air braking system and was in the way.

 

OK, a fair bit of the work had to be redone, particularly the front end of the frames, once the rebuild had started, and that was something that should have been picked up earlier, but this was probably the biggest project ever tackled by the NRM team - and in fairness they were trying to keep costs down by doing much of the work 'in house'. Hindsight, eh...

 

The good news is that she's not going to be flogged hard with 600 tonne trains on challenging gradients, as she was following the previous overhaul, done in preparation for making money with a long term commercial agreement with VSOE. She's being looked after more. Yes, the loadings steadily increased as she did the summer York-Carlisle runs, but that was well controlled and on a route which wasn't as demanding for power as, for example, the S&C, Shap or the Surrey Hills. This will hopefully mean fewer nasty surprises at her next overhaul or two as well.

 

As she is, she's being seen by many more folk than in her previous service period, and in as close to authentic condition as is possible for her present shape, other than the corridor tender. The NRM and Rileys should be congratulated on her present condition.

 

Yes, it's been an expensive and time consuming job, but she is a locomotive that has fascinated 'normals' for many years, and does have a remarkable history, much of it in preservation, of course. And, of course, she was the first locomotive to be officially timed, with proof, such as it is, at 100mph, albeit only fleetingly. How many small boys and girls were inspired to take up model railways after receiving a "Flying Scotsman" train set for birthdays or Christmas?

 

Ultimately, she's a 'Marmite' locomotive in many ways, but had the NRM not bought her, I suspect that she would have disappeared abroad, never to be seen on these shores again, and that would have been a tragedy. No, she wasn't initially put on the preservation list; Mallard saw to that, and rightly so, in my opinion. There would have been too much duplication for an A3 and an A4, both Gresley Pacifics, to be part of the National Collection at the time  of withdrawal.

 

Should she have simply been 'stuffed and mounted'? Possibly with a new A3, a la "Tornado" constructed? That's a good question. Had the total bill been known at the start, perhaps so, but again, that's that pesky hindsight kicking in. Having said that, would crowds flock to see her sitting cold and lifeless, albeit gleaming, at York, Shildon or any other display area? I would say not. You can't compare "The Great Gathering" either - that was unique.

 

So, I am looking forward to the A1, A2, A3, A4 gathering, once Blue Peter emerges from Crewe. Now THAT will make this all worthwhile too. Indeed, it should also be combined with an HST and a Class 91/Mark 4 rake, plus the Stirling Single and the Ivatt Atlantivs. Now THERE is a lineup to savour

 

Interesting points for the defence, and some good arguments in favour. 

 

Perhaps I'm a bit too much of an economic brutalist coming from a local authority background where resources have always had to be rationed, but I cannot in all conscience ever see popularity as ever being a justification for spending the kind of sums that have been lavished on this particular loco when other assets which have more right to preservation when telling the story of British rail history and technological development - which is the raison d'etre of the NRM - suffer from lack of resources.  If a private buyer had stepped in and exported it to a Chinese theme park, so be it.  That's the free market, and it won't have been the first time a private buyer would have bought it for foreign earning potential.  As for it not being such a magnet "stuffed and mounted" perhaps not, but again, the NRM is about education, not about theme park attractions.  Of course, the education role should be lively, engaging and entertaining, but you don't need Flying Scotsman to be steaming along the ECML with punters paying hundreds of pounds to ride behind her to provide the draw.  None of the spectators who routinely trespass to see it whizz past gain anything remotely edifying or informative from the spectacle and I suspect the overwhelming majority won't turn round and immediately start planning a trip to York to go to the NRM, so it's advertising benefit is about that of the Royal Family, whose supporters routinely claim they bring in millions of tourist pounds every year blithely ignoring the fact that those tourists don't pitch up in London on the off chance they might bump into Brenda walking the Corgis but because it's London.  It's a fallacy.

 

We are where we are.  The money has been spent, the loco is whizzing around pleasing the normal, and the APT, and other non-steam assets are being neglected, allowed to rot and starved of resources.  To gain access to much of their archive you have to go to York, in an age when t'internet should be making these things readily available like many other archives have been.  The NRM appears to have a pro steam, pro glamour agenda, similar to the old National Collection at Clapham, which is at odds with it's educational charity status, just because Jo and Joanna Normal think steam trains are lovely the fact that electric trains have been around over 100 years and diesels for over 50 can't be ignored.  In a way I think Flying Scotsman is actually a victim of some rather bad policy decisions and muddled thinking by the Museum and has become the poster boy for those who, like me, feel that the primary job of the NRM is to care for all it's artefacts, make it's privileged status as holder of the nation's railway archives and history more available and to have a broader remit than providing an entertaining day out for affluent railtourists.

 

​One final thought - I'm sure there's a lot of modellers who would welcome the chance to access drawings and plans currently held in the archives in a digital format from home to help them with their plans.  £4million would have made a good start on doing just that.

[Steamport Southport]

Yes, but...

 

Much of the last overhaul was to make good the damage that had been done by attempting to get Class 8 power out of an ageing Class 7 chassis - done as a commercial enterprise to make money. Some of it was effectively 'boy racer' stuff - oversized pistons in bored out cylinders; higher boiler pressure/output etc etc. No wonder the poor old girl was in need of major surgery. "Pimp my Ride" on rails...

 

Then there was the issue of reinstating the vacuum brakes - from what I heard, the gas-axe was used to cut away anything that was not required on an all-air braking system and was in the way.

 

OK, a fair bit of the work had to be redone, particularly the front end of the frames, once the rebuild had started, and that was something that should have been picked up earlier, but this was probably the biggest project ever tackled by the NRM team - and in fairness they were trying to keep costs down by doing much of the work 'in house'. Hindsight, eh...

 

The good news is that she's not going to be flogged hard with 600 tonne trains on challenging gradients, as she was following the previous overhaul, done in preparation for making money with a long term commercial agreement with VSOE. She's being looked after more. Yes, the loadings steadily increased as she did the summer York-Carlisle runs, but that was well controlled and on a route which wasn't as demanding for power as, for example, the S&C, Shap or the Surrey Hills. This will hopefully mean fewer nasty surprises at her next overhaul or two as well.

 

As she is, she's being seen by many more folk than in her previous service period, and in as close to authentic condition as is possible for her present shape, other than the corridor tender. The NRM and Rileys should be congratulated on her present condition.

 

Yes, it's been an expensive and time consuming job, but she is a locomotive that has fascinated 'normals' for many years, and does have a remarkable history, much of it in preservation, of course. And, of course, she was the first locomotive to be officially timed, with proof, such as it is, at 100mph, albeit only fleetingly. How many small boys and girls were inspired to take up model railways after receiving a "Flying Scotsman" train set for birthdays or Christmas?

 

Ultimately, she's a 'Marmite' locomotive in many ways, but had the NRM not bought her, I suspect that she would have disappeared abroad, never to be seen on these shores again, and that would have been a tragedy. No, she wasn't initially put on the preservation list; Mallard saw to that, and rightly so, in my opinion. There would have been too much duplication for an A3 and an A4, both Gresley Pacifics, to be part of the National Collection at the time  of withdrawal.

 

Should she have simply been 'stuffed and mounted'? Possibly with a new A3, a la "Tornado" constructed? That's a good question. Had the total bill been known at the start, perhaps so, but again, that's that pesky hindsight kicking in. Having said that, would crowds flock to see her sitting cold and lifeless, albeit gleaming, at York, Shildon or any other display area? I would say not. You can't compare "The Great Gathering" either - that was unique.

 

So, I am looking forward to the A1, A2, A3, A4 gathering, once Blue Peter emerges from Crewe. Now THAT will make this all worthwhile too. Indeed, it should also be combined with an HST and a Class 91/Mark 4 rake, plus the Stirling Single and the Ivatt Atlantivs. Now THERE is a lineup to savour

 

I agree with virtually everything in your post.

 

Which brings up the question of whether the right people are in charge of the NRM? But that's for another thread.

 

 

What bugs me about this programme is that yet again we have FS when we could have something more suitable for a cross country line in the countryside. I doubt that many will tune in just to see FS when it'll probably just be a glimpse of it at the start and finish, whilst the majority of the programme will be views of track and countryside. It'll just be the same people that watch niche programmes on BBC Four anyway.

 

 

 

Jason

[Arthur]

 

 

What bugs me about this programme is that yet again we have FS when we could have something more suitable for a cross country line in the countryside.

 

More suitable? Who the hell cares apart from a few railway geeks. Whatever you think about its past;

 

 

The money has now been spent

 

The Locomotive is back to working condition

 

It is the most famous and iconic locomotive in the country, possibly the world.

 

 

If you want to attract an audience wider than railway enthusiasts then this is the one.

 

 

"Ivatt 2-6-2T, From the Footplate" , yeah, that's really gonna bring 'em in.

 

 

And I speak as an 'LMS man', not a particular A3 fan, but I can at least recognize the realities of life beyond the enthusiast bubble.

 

.

[caradoc]

Personally I have no strong feelings for or against Flying Scotsman, but there is no doubt that it is far and away the most famous (if not the only) steam loco that non-enthusiasts (the majority of the population) are aware of. The BBC News coverage of its return to steam, and the crowds generated by its appearance on preserved lines, are testament to that. I will certainly watch the programme and see what it's like. If nothing else it will put railways in the public eye again, in a good way for once.

[tarifa]

What a bunch of moaning minnies "train / model enthusiasts" are on this site.  Just about every non modelling and some modelling topics are castigated for being too expensive, the wrong colour, too many or too little panels, or too many rivets.  What's wrong with looking on the bright side, saying something positive for once.  You never know you might even feel better for it, or is it British to be permanently dissatisfied and let the world know.  Unfortunately I missed the FS on the SVR during the summer and look forward to the BBC programme.

 

Mike

[Hroth]

Well, to maximise effect, the BBC could always do a remake of Arnold Ridleys "The Ghost Train" and send Flying Scotsman off Barmouth bridge in slow motion.... 

 

(yes I know there are practical problems with the scenario, but one can dream....)

[t-b-g]

Interesting points for the defence, and some good arguments in favour. 

 

Perhaps I'm a bit too much of an economic brutalist coming from a local authority background where resources have always had to be rationed, but I cannot in all conscience ever see popularity as ever being a justification for spending the kind of sums that have been lavished on this particular loco when other assets which have more right to preservation when telling the story of British rail history and technological development - which is the raison d'etre of the NRM - suffer from lack of resources.  If a private buyer had stepped in and exported it to a Chinese theme park, so be it.  That's the free market, and it won't have been the first time a private buyer would have bought it for foreign earning potential.  As for it not being such a magnet "stuffed and mounted" perhaps not, but again, the NRM is about education, not about theme park attractions.  Of course, the education role should be lively, engaging and entertaining, but you don't need Flying Scotsman to be steaming along the ECML with punters paying hundreds of pounds to ride behind her to provide the draw.  None of the spectators who routinely trespass to see it whizz past gain anything remotely edifying or informative from the spectacle and I suspect the overwhelming majority won't turn round and immediately start planning a trip to York to go to the NRM, so it's advertising benefit is about that of the Royal Family, whose supporters routinely claim they bring in millions of tourist pounds every year blithely ignoring the fact that those tourists don't pitch up in London on the off chance they might bump into Brenda walking the Corgis but because it's London.  It's a fallacy.

 

We are where we are.  The money has been spent, the loco is whizzing around pleasing the normal, and the APT, and other non-steam assets are being neglected, allowed to rot and starved of resources.  To gain access to much of their archive you have to go to York, in an age when t'internet should be making these things readily available like many other archives have been.  The NRM appears to have a pro steam, pro glamour agenda, similar to the old National Collection at Clapham, which is at odds with it's educational charity status, just because Jo and Joanna Normal think steam trains are lovely the fact that electric trains have been around over 100 years and diesels for over 50 can't be ignored.  In a way I think Flying Scotsman is actually a victim of some rather bad policy decisions and muddled thinking by the Museum and has become the poster boy for those who, like me, feel that the primary job of the NRM is to care for all it's artefacts, make it's privileged status as holder of the nation's railway archives and history more available and to have a broader remit than providing an entertaining day out for affluent railtourists.

 

​One final thought - I'm sure there's a lot of modellers who would welcome the chance to access drawings and plans currently held in the archives in a digital format from home to help them with their plans.  £4million would have made a good start on doing just that.

 

Should all the collections in all our museums be subject to a "free market" and be made available to the highest bidder, or does that just apply to Flying Scotsman?

 

The NRM ended up with a tricky decision to make over Flying Scotsman. It launched an appeal to purchase the loco, which was largely funded by donations from the public. There is no evidence to suggest that the money raised in that way would have gone to purchase any other loco or would have gone into railway preservation in other ways.

 

There is no doubt that a steam loco working out on the line has much more impact visually and emotionally compared to one stuffed and mounted and the NRM has always had an interest in keeping a small number of locos running. Many of their locos are regarded by them (wrongly in my view but that is another story!) as not to be touched due to the "original" condition of the loco so it shouldn't be touched to preserve as much original material as possible. Flying Scotsman was known to have very little original material anyway and for whatever reason, it is very famous and people who are non railway enthusiasts know of it, far more than they know of other locos. This made it an ideal candidate for a travelling "flagship" loco for the museum.

 

Once the work had started and various problems cropped up, they had a choice of stopping work, in which case all that had been done would be wasted and they would need to start looking for another loco, less well known and without the same impact. That option would have left FS in a condition that would have been a disgrace and an embarrassment to the museum. It would have been a huge failure and people would have been talking about the NRM spending all that money and getting nothing for it. By carrying on, the NRM have put a famous and well loved loco back in tip top condition. They have given themselves probably the most famous loco in the world as a travelling "flagship" and they have started to recoup the costs and boost the income at the places it visits.

 

I couldn't afford to pay for tickets on its main line runs and the people who have trespassed on lines are idiots but the fact that so many people turn out to see it and ride behind it despite high prices just cements its place as being highly popular.

 

So it was not an ideal situation. The fault lies partly with the NRM, who should have carried out a better assessment before they started but mainly with the people who have messed the loco up previously. But in my view, the NRM has made the best of a bad situation.

 

You seem to have some of the same conflicting views about the NRM that I do. Is its primary role the conservation and preservation of artifacts or is it education? I am not sure that the museum itself is really sure about that one. It seems to be trying to change its role by moving its collection of locos to various outposts to give it room to create a playground for youngsters. I much preferred it when it was more interested in being a place to come and see preserved railway exhibits. If it was to be developed, I would have preferred to see it go more like a bigger version of the "Steam" museum at Swindon, with locos and stock displayed in "realistic" settings, showing how railways used to look. Instead it is becoming a sterile audio visual computer age kind of place.

[Steamport Southport]

More suitable? Who the hell cares apart from a few railway geeks. Whatever you think about its past;

 

 

The money has now been spent

 

The Locomotive is back to working condition

 

It is the most famous and iconic locomotive in the country, possibly the world.

 

 

If you want to attract an audience wider than railway enthusiasts then this is the one.

 

 

"Ivatt 2-6-2T, From the Footplate" , yeah, that's really gonna bring 'em in.

 

 

And I speak as an 'LMS man', not a particular A3 fan, but I can at least recognize the realities of life beyond the enthusiast bubble.

 

.

 

But isn't the programme supposed to be "slow TV"? Having an express passenger locomotive doesn't exactly say slow TV to me. I think the average person that watches BBC Four would know that, it has after all had programmes about railway preservation, railway walks and Doctor Beeching.

 

It's not like they had a speed boat when they did the canal one or a jet powered snow mobile when they did the Lapland Reindeer one.

 

 

 

Jason

[Steamport Southport]

Should all the collections in all our museums be subject to a "free market" and be made available to the highest bidder, or does that just apply to Flying Scotsman?

 

The NRM ended up with a tricky decision to make over Flying Scotsman. It launched an appeal to purchase the loco, which was largely funded by donations from the public. There is no evidence to suggest that the money raised in that way would have gone to purchase any other loco or would have gone into railway preservation in other ways.

 

It was on the open market and the NRM decided to buy it.

 

Yet it wasn't their money they spent, it was ours.

 

The purchase price was £2.3 million. Of that £1.8 million came from the National Heritage Memorial Fund, £350,000 from Richard Branson and £70,000 from the Yorkshire Post. £350,000 was donated.

 

So the vast majority of the purchase price came from the "poor tax" that is known as The National Lottery. Was it money well spent? You can all make your own mind up on that.

 

 

Jason

[Colin_McLeod]

Yes. Well spent. IMO.

[t-b-g]

It was on the open market and the NRM decided to buy it.

 

Yet it wasn't their money they spent, it was ours.

 

The purchase price was £2.3 million. Of that £1.8 million came from the National Heritage Memorial Fund, £350,000 from Richard Branson and £70,000 from the Yorkshire Post. £350,000 was donated.

 

So the vast majority of the purchase price came from the "poor tax" that is known as The National Lottery. Was it money well spent? You can all make your own mind up on that.

 

 

Jason

 

Is there a single person who has contributed to the purchase of Flying Scotsman who didn't have a free choice as to whether they wanted to part with their money?

 

Whether it be by purchasing a lottery ticket or by making a direct donation, each of us had a choice.

 

If any of us wants to have a problem with how the lottery people decide to spend their money, that is a separate matter. There have been many grant applications declined and some that I thought were a waste of space approved but we can all object by not buying tickets.

 

As in all such major projects, like Tornado, Prince of Wales etc. there are always going to be some people who would prefer that efforts and funding go into something else. I often find that in life, there are two sorts of people. Those who have the vision, drive and enthusiasm to get on and achieve things and those who will moan about them not doing something else instead.

[wombatofludham]

 

 

As in all such major projects, like Tornado, Prince of Wales etc. there are always going to be some people who would prefer that efforts and funding go into something else. I often find that in life, there are two sorts of people. Those who have the vision, drive and enthusiasm to get on and achieve things and those who will moan about them not doing something else instead.

 

Before you start rushing to judgement of people "moaning" lacking "vision, drive and enthusiasm" you should check out your facts.  For all you know those of us criticising the NRM's spending of resources on an entertainment project rather than it's core remit might well be involved in other visionary projects and be driven to do something about it, in areas less glamourous or popular with the public.  There was no "vision" or "drive" to acquire Flying Scotsman, it was pandering to a populist agenda to favour a not particularly outstanding example of locomotive design with an excessive amount of financial and management resource in a sector suffering from financial pressures even before the austerity programme.

 

​The real vision and drive would have been to resist the clamour for popularity and fame, and instead to direct resources to less popular areas which help fulfil the NRM core remit of education.

[Arthur]

But isn't the programme supposed to be "slow TV"? Having an express passenger locomotive doesn't exactly say slow TV to me. I think the average person that watches BBC Four would know that, it has after all had programmes about railway preservation, railway walks and Doctor Beeching.

 

It's not like they had a speed boat when they did the canal one or a jet powered snow mobile when they did the Lapland Reindeer one.

 

 

 

Jason

Dream on, the vast majority of the TV audience really couldn't give a damn and Flying Scotsman is, I believe, capable of being driven slowly....

 

How hard can this be. The Flying Scotsman is the most famous locomotive in the country, it will draw the largest audience.

 

.

[jamesg]

At least, as the cameras were attached to Flying Scotsman, it's the one locomotive you won't get a proper view of.

 

Seriously, I look forward to seeing this programme on television.  "Ivatt 2-6-2T Country Branch Train" might be just as interesting to many on the forum, but Flying Scotsman will interest more of the general public.  Also, in a way, it celebrates the movement of locomotives around the country in preservation - people can watch the programme and say "I saw that".

[Guest 40-something]

Flying Scotsman is a brand, a brand of the NRM, and in these shallow days, brands matter, brands are what get you noticed.  With the NRM acquiring and rebuilding Flying Scotsman, they kept the brand alive, and when the average member of the public sees, hears or reads of Flying Scotsman then that is a link to the NRM - a possible visitor, or a possible purchaser from Locomotion Models.  That is what brands do, they draw you in to get you to spend money on their star attraction, or similar items.  Audi dont make every car like the R8, but they dangle that carrot to get you looking at what else they sell.  To keep the mundane, every business has to highlight its star products to reel people in.

 

I done a test with this earlier at work in my team of 11 people,  I asked who had heard of the National Railway Museum? 2 had, but had never visited (didnt know where it was).  I then asked if they had heard of Flying Scotsman, all said yes.  I told them that the NRM own Flying Scotsman, I then noticed some of my team on the net looking at the NRM's website, and one of them had clicked right through to the Flying Scotsman souvenirs page. 

 

Some of the profits from a visitor to the NRM, or buyer of a souvenir or Locomotion model, or even a passenger behind Flying Scotsman will go back to the NRM, which in turn will filter down to keeping/upgrading or adding to the collection.  Thats a good thing surely.  We all have our preferences as to what we would like to see saved or returned to mainline status, but to get that, the main attractions have to be highlighted, and money spent marketing them.

 

I've seen the loco once, at Glasgow Queen Street when I was a kid, it doesnt mean anything to me, but Im still glad its been rebuilt and is out touring the countrys preserved lines.  I'd love to see a WD 2-10-0 or a J50, but I wont throw my toys out of the pram when Flying Scotsman is mentioned.

 

It may have had a couple of million from the National Lottery, but no-one forces you to buy a ticket!

[The Stationmaster]

 

 

 

​One final thought - I'm sure there's a lot of modellers who would welcome the chance to access drawings and plans currently held in the archives in a digital format from home to help them with their plans.  £4million would have made a good start on doing just that.

 

That is a very important point - the NRM has, reportedly, thousands of unsorted negatives and drawings.  I know that in the past, and maybe still(?), they print a batch of what they think or know are GWR/WR negs and send them off to Steam at Swindon for identification.  Some of their published photos are badly and inaccurately captioned - in fact there is a wealth of material - some of which is accessible but a lot isn't because they don't know what it is.    Trouble is research presumably is 'sexy' enough for them whereas steam engines out on the network are.

[Daddyman]

I see these cretins still can't get the name of the locomotive right: as it stands, going by the BBC's publicity in the first post they're proposing a slow-motion film of the 10.00 service from Edinburgh to King's Cross over the past 92 years running on the SVR - absolute gobbledegook! The Flying Scotsman is a train service. Flying Scotsman is a locomotive. 

 

I agree that the four-point-something million is a lot to spend on one locomotive, but it really gets up GWR fans' noses, and that's got to be worth the price.