Hornby Class 87 - Confirmed Newly Tooled Version for 2017 !

[frobisher]

I think if people knew there was a new Hornby 86 coming they wouldn’t bother with the Heljan one . It’s relatively expensive and contains known flaws.

This didn't stop Heljan re-releasing their 47 in the run up to the Bachmann and ViTrains ones.

[Roy Langridge]

No doubt if someone does another 86 Heljan will do another run of their one before the new one gets released. It is a poor model by modern standards but it would dent sales of a new model if released just before a new model. If a manufacturer was doing an 86 they might keep it quiet until it almost ready for release?

As you say the trick there is to release it as ready to buy, not announced several months in advance. Might be more of a gamble, but the risk may pay dividends.

 

Roy

Edited October 30, 2017 by Roy Langridge

[wombatofludham]

Well, if Heljan still have the moulds for the 86 - not a racing certainty by any means - and they tried a spoiler release, it has a very limited range of liveries it can be released in simply because of the combination of front headlamp, roof mounted fire bottles and TDM/RCH connections, other clangers notwithstanding.  If Hornby produce an 86 with detail differences modelled to allow a wider range of liveries, particularly Rail Blue, early blue and Executive liveries which would complement other AC electrics on the market and thereby making it more likely to sell, I suspect the fact you won't have to get out your scalpel, sandpaper, Milliput and spraygun for all but a handful of liveries would kill any chance of Heljan trying to muscle in.

 

However I suspect the Danes have long melted down the moulds for the 86 and probably would be better off re-running the Class 33/1 in Blue to cash in on the Kernow 4TC given they seem to have vanished recently.

[James Makin]

 

Does anyone know how long the last 87 lasted in IC Swallow livery? From memory the 87s were all done pretty sharpish after Virgin took over.

 

The red paintbrush didn’t hang about!

 

According to my trusty Platform 5’s, the last Class 87s in Intercity were the follows - 87005/011/017-020/023/024/026/028-031 & 034. These are last showing as Intercity in the 2000 edition, with all Virgin’s 87s listed as being red by the following January 2001.

 

Hope this helps!

James

[frobisher]

However I suspect the Danes have long melted down the moulds for the 86 and probably would be better off re-running the Class 33/1 in Blue to cash in on the Kernow 4TC given they seem to have vanished recently.

The Heljan moulds are "soft" which makes them cheaper to produce but wear out relatively quickly and they produce new tooling as required from the existing CAD. It's relatively likely that the initial run wore out the existing tooling, so it would just be down to the economics of whether a simple spoiler would be worthwhile, or making some change to the CAD and getting a better one out the door.

[Legend]

This didn't stop Heljan re-releasing their 47 in the run up to the Bachmann and ViTrains ones.

The 47 is still a good model. It’s 2mm too wide but I’ve got one and I don’t notice it. The 86 has a whole load more issues

[adb968008]

Is there anywhere to read up on Heljan moulds ?

 

They’ve been turning out 17’s, 26’s, 35’s and 47’s for years and consistently sell, so the mould can’t be too soft.

The Danish Mx/My has been around for 20 years too. The 14 and 28 also look good for a second round.

 

I read the 47 mould wore out, but they must have managed to squeeze thousands out of it, given the variants available, many more than the 86.

 

It may just be that o/h electrics are slow to sell, so they concentrate on something else.

Edited October 31, 2017 by adb968008

[Pete the Elaner]

Heljan's 86 has something 'wrong' looking about it. Others have stated that certain dimensions are out but I just couldn't put my finger on it. The old Hornby one doesn't. Most of its visual dimensions look good.

The 47 was too fat & looks it. They never withdrew this so I guess it must have sold consistently well. The 47 itself has everything going for it. A long period of use, it ran almost everywhere across the UK on passenger, freight & engineers trains, it carried loads of different liveries & there were over 500 of them.

Their 58 is a much better model, but that has not been continually available. Compared to the 47, they only regularly worked freight, only lasted about half the time, only carried a handful of liveries & only worked in some parts of the country.

 

Unless someone within Heljan knows differently, the 86 could re-appear. Their 33 originally had a badly shaped roof, but they re-tooled it to make a really good model, so it is not beyond possibility that they could re-tool the 86 too.

[MGR Hooper!]

Heljan's 86 has something 'wrong' looking about it. Others have stated that certain dimensions are out but I just couldn't put my finger on it. The old Hornby one doesn't. Most of its visual dimensions look good.

The 47 was too fat & looks it. They never withdrew this so I guess it must have sold consistently well. The 47 itself has everything going for it. A long period of use, it ran almost everywhere across the UK on passenger, freight & engineers trains, it carried loads of different liveries & there were over 500 of them.

Their 58 is a much better model, but that has not been continually available. Compared to the 47, they only regularly worked freight, only lasted about half the time, only carried a handful of liveries & only worked in some parts of the country.

 

Unless someone within Heljan knows differently, the 86 could re-appear. Their 33 originally had a badly shaped roof, but they re-tooled it to make a really good model, so it is not beyond possibility that they could re-tool the 86 too.

But Heljan on many occasions have told people who personally contacted them that the Class 86 was not of interest to them anymore and they wouldn't be releasing it again.

 

And yes, IMHO dimensions wise the model was horrible, they got the cab completely wrong. The only thing it had going for it was it's weight and it's smooth running. I really don't have anything else good to say about it. If I am not wrong even the wheels had plastic inserts in it and that made it look worse for me.

 

I for one hope that Hornby will take advantage of the Class 87's similarities and do a Class 86. I secretly hope for 2018, but that may be a little unreasonable and 2019 might be a better choice.

 

As others have said, the Class 86 was like the Class 47 of the AC electrics, Heljan have missed an opportunity and I hope Hornby takes a chance. I don't mind Oxford doing it, but almost all (if not all) their products have had avoidable and silly errors.

[Scottish-Exile]

When Hornby announce a new 86, as they surely will to replace their current model, it won't be competing with the Heljan offer which no longer exists, it'll probably come in more variations than the proverbial Heinz range, based on their tooling for the 87, which will be enough to keep us AC junkies in penury and Hornby in good humour when we keep buying them, and be a banker compared to some of the other AC electric locos, although at some point an 81 would be nice.  

 

 

Totally agree, I'd love to have a modern tooled 86 in all its guises. Although in the past 6 weeks I've picked up 5 of these Heljan models (for the aforementioned stupendously daft money). I'm happy with the Heljans and would curse a bit / a lot if Hornby were to announce an 86 at this years Warley.

 

Would prefer to see some EMU's first but would welcome an 86 announcement say next year for a 2019-20 release.

[No Decorum]

It may just be that o/h electrics are slow to sell, so they concentrate on something else.

I recall Mr. York telling us that Bachmann’s 85 was a steady rather than a spectacular seller. I rather think that AC electrics will sell rather more quickly these days.

[Mad McCann]

Hopefully we might even get a pandemic (sorry...)

That probably went right over (their) head... ;-)

[frobisher]

Is there anywhere to read up on Heljan moulds ?

 

They’ve been turning out 17’s, 26’s, 35’s and 47’s for years and consistently sell, so the mould can’t be too soft.

The Danish Mx/My has been around for 20 years too. The 14 and 28 also look good for a second round.

It's been variously reported all over here. But in general, each production run or so wears the tooling out and they just produce new tooling as required which is way cheaper to do with that type of tooling.

[adb968008]

It's been variously reported all over here. But in general, each production run or so wears the tooling out and they just produce new tooling as required which is way cheaper to do with that type of tooling.

I could understand that approach for niche items like all the diesel prototypes they made... DP2, Falcon, kestrel etc

But this would not sound like common sense for high sales expectation items like the 47, 86 etc.. ?

 

Are you saying Heljan made many duplicate tools for the 47 for each batch ? .. there must be tens of thousands of 47’s out there ?, if that were the case then why not modify the tooling to improve it ? I can see that they retired the 47 tooling as it wore out..so if the 47 tool wearing out is a benchmark.. then the 86 tooling I would have been thinking would be equally as good for the same or similar number of injections ? That it was retired at all suggest they used it to the max... which on balance looks a lot more than the 86, though less than Bachmann and Hornby on several other prototypes.

 

I can understand that different elements of a tooling can wear at different rates, and slides can affect the life of other parts.

 

I can see they made a new tool from the 33, but that was at special commission. Similarly the Facebook page suggests that the specially commissioned 14 and 28 tools are being reused.. so they too must be using original tools, otherwise why need permission ? I’m not convinced Heljan have made several duplicated toolings of a class 17 or 35 to cover several identical but different releases, that too me would seem expensive and excessively risky on a model who’s sales potential is probably uncharted, but seems to keep meeting the slow burn targets.

 

I would be interested to see more info on this to back this theory up, and that it applies to every Heljan tooling, every re release... Some niches ones yes, but routine bulk volume sales locomotives.. ?

 

Here’s what I read between hard and soft... soft is few hundred max, hard is 000k’s injections.

https://www.tth.com/whats-difference-soft-hard-tooling/

To make 4000 kestrels would require 40 duplicate sets of toolings.. sounds uneconomic to me.

It maybe they use a softer metal, but then if it’s good for 000’s of 47’s it would probably be good for 000’s of 86’s too ? Aluminium toolings are 20-30% cheaper than steel, but provide between 2k -10k parts, steel does up to 100k, so the savings in Aluminium don’t appear to be there for highly sellable models, if every batch needs a whole new tool, but much more so for one offs (like the diesel prototypes) it’s makes a lot of sense. I doubt there’s many locomotives selling over 10k models these days.

 

I think they just didn’t sell well, so they didn’t make any more, and focussed their spending and production resources on something with a better ROI. Which could mean they could chose to bring it back, that they haven’t made a deal on rereleasing the 76/77 (which hasn’t sold out either) also backs my theory up.. electrics just aren’t as desirable,sellable, repeatable as more lucrative models like 17/26/35 etc etc

Edited October 31, 2017 by adb968008

[wombatofludham]

Totally agree, I'd love to have a modern tooled 86 in all its guises. Although in the past 6 weeks I've picked up 5 of these Heljan models (for the aforementioned stupendously daft money). I'm happy with the Heljans and would curse a bit / a lot if Hornby were to announce an 86 at this years Warley.

 

Would prefer to see some EMU's first but would welcome an 86 announcement say next year for a 2019-20 release.

 

I've actually acquired via the Bay of Thief, two "banger blue" Heljan 86 conversions and even one converted to AL6 condition in early livery, at not bad prices, but if Hornby announce an all singing all dancing 86 in Heinz varieties, I will still buy a small fleet.  

 

As for the 85 being a "steady seller" well of course it would be.  It was the only available high-def model of an AC type at the time and let's just remind ourselves, even if you could still find a Heljan 86 when first launched, the Heljan model represented the class as running a few years after the last 85 was withdrawn.  If Hornby announce an 86 in all Heinz varieties people can seriously consider building a West Coast themed layout with a representative range of typically seen loco types - AL6 and AL5s were the predominant types I used to watch hammering past my primary school in 1968 because statistically the two types made up 75% of the AC fleet.  In the 1970s and 80s, with the addition of the 87, you've got most of the in service types covered.  We know there's a 90 coming so with an 86 you can realistically model the latter pre Pendolino years.  An 85 on it's lonesome which the Bachmann model has been for most of it's sales period can't do justice, so it's sold to either those who detail up the Hornby 86, or collectors, or future speculators like me banking on new models.

 

​The 87 will be the game changer as it spans the operation of the 85s and the 90s and I think will help generate the equivalent of a model "sparks effect".  Just need a 304 or 310 to be announced and I'll be happy.  Bankrupt, probably, but happy.

[sorabain]

in case this gets read by people choosing what to go for, i'll add in my vote for a 304 or 310. I missed out on the DCKits offerings and have been holding off on southern pride for now (too much else to do).

 

Although given that I bought up a stock of old 87s, 90s, and 92s with a view to converting those to modern chassis and all have since been announced as a new RTR model release maybe I should buy an EMU kit to "summon" an RTR for that too.

[Pete the Elaner]

I recall Mr. York telling us that Bachmann’s 85 was a steady rather than a spectacular seller. I rather think that AC electrics will sell rather more quickly these days.

I remember Charlie Petty a few years ago about his DC kits class 85 kit & he told me then that AC Electrics sold poorly.

The Bachmann released their 85 & we have been told a similar thing. This was a well-received model, unlike Heljan's 86.

What is so different about now?

 

Look at it from a manufacturer's point of view: What sold poorly in the past will be a gamble now unless there is something definite to indicate otherwise.

Producing a high quality 87 is a gamble for Hornby. Those of us discussing it here are a minority from 1 part of the market, not a cross-section of all potential customers.

The best way to make companies produce models of more AC Electrics is to make the 87 a good seller. That means we should buy what we can while it is available.

 

I am sure competitors are watching closely at how well the 87 sells in order to decide what models to produce themselves.

[adb968008]

I remember Charlie Petty a few years ago about his DC kits class 85 kit & he told me then that AC Electrics sold poorly.

The Bachmann released their 85 & we have been told a similar thing. This was a well-received model, unlike Heljan's 86.

What is so different about now?

 

Look at it from a manufacturer's point of view: What sold poorly in the past will be a gamble now unless there is something definite to indicate otherwise.

Producing a high quality 87 is a gamble for Hornby.

 

I am sure competitors are watching closely at how well the 87 sells in order to decide what models to produce themselves.

Agreed..

I think we already know the answer to the question as well.

 

The 87 should be benchmarked against Hornby’s other investments.. the Duchess and the SECR H, both of which are sold out before delivery.

 

The 87 is available to pre-order everywhere, including Hornby’s website. It is not obvious to see it sold out any where.

Unless Hornby are making more 87’s than Duchesses, one would have to assume Duchesses are outselling 87’s, long before reaching the shelves.

 

From an accountants perspective that’s a black and white obvious decision, if the Peckett wasn’t obvious enough.

 

As side of an 81, 86 or a brave man to risk an 89 there not much left in AC electrics.

But if they don’t sell it’s infinitely more risky to do an AC EMU or class 91, which is 3 or 4 times greater risk and cost due to the extra carriages unique to that ensemble. That Bachmanns 350’s are in the bargain bin, preceded not once but twice by differing Class 85 releases doesn’t help the cause either.

 

It would seem AC is a bit line neutral really.

Edited October 31, 2017 by adb968008

[frobisher]

I could understand that approach for niche items like all the diesel prototypes they made... DP2, Falcon, kestrel etc

But this would not sound like common sense for high sales expectation items like the 47, 86 etc.. ?

It makes sense for Heljan :shrugs:

 

Are you saying Heljan made many duplicate tools for the 47 for each batch ? .. there must be tens of thousands of 47’s out there ?, if that were the case then why not modify the tooling to improve it ?

It's mostly the body tooling as I understand it that wears out quickest. Unfortunately with the 47 the fix isn't cheap in the CAD side of things as it's not a minor adjustment - the whole thing would need redone, plus the chassis tooling and that will probably tip towards not cost effective.

 

I can see that they retired the 47 tooling as it wore out..so if the 47 tool wearing out is a benchmark.. then the 86 tooling I would have been thinking would be equally as good for the same or similar number of injections ? That it was retired at all suggest they used it to the max... which on balance looks a lot more than the 86, though less than Bachmann and Hornby on several other prototypes.

The 86's faults are probably more easily fixed on a CAD front (but again, some bits would knock on to other tooling if you altered them (glazing...), but I suspect that Heljan would probably rerun "as is" as the most cost effective spoiler.

 

 

I can understand that different elements of a tooling can wear at different rates, and slides can affect the life of other parts.

 

I can see they made a new tool from the 33, but that was at special commission. Similarly the Facebook page suggests that the specially commissioned 14 and 28 tools are being reused.. so they too must be using original tools, otherwise why need permission ?

Because the commissioner owns the CAD work as well?

 

I’m not convinced Heljan have made several duplicated toolings of a class 17 or 35 to cover several identical but different releases, that too me would seem expensive and excessively risky on a model who’s sales potential is probably uncharted, but seems to keep meeting the slow burn targets.

They replace the tools as they wear out, and as I understand it they generally run their batch sizes to the exhaustion of the body tools. The tooling costs are considerably lower than the type normally used by Hornby and Bachmann and that's why Heljan can afford to do it.

 

I would be interested to see more info on this to back this theory up, and that it applies to every Heljan tooling, every re release... Some niches ones yes, but routine bulk volume sales locomotives.. ?

 

Here’s what I read between hard and soft... soft is few hundred max, hard is 000k’s injections.

https://www.tth.com/whats-difference-soft-hard-tooling/

To make 4000 kestrels would require 40 duplicate sets of toolings.. sounds uneconomic to me.

It maybe they use a softer metal, but then if it’s good for 000’s of 47’s it would probably be good for 000’s of 86’s too ? Aluminium toolings are 20-30% cheaper than steel, but provide between 2k -10k parts, steel does up to 100k, so the savings in Aluminium don’t appear to be there for highly sellable models, if every batch needs a whole new tool, but much more so for one offs (like the diesel prototypes) it’s makes a lot of sense. I doubt there’s many locomotives selling over 10k models these days.

 

I think they just didn’t sell well, so they didn’t make any more, and focussed their spending and production resources on something with a better ROI. Which could mean they could chose to bring it back, that they haven’t made a deal on rereleasing the 76/77 (which hasn’t sold out either) also backs my theory up.. electrics just aren’t as desirable,sellable, repeatable as more lucrative models like 17/26/35 etc etc

As I said, this is what has been widely spoken about in regards Heljan's tooling.

 

Not all soft tooling is created equal is what turns up from a quick google. Didn't find the answer in regards Heljan's preference, but it composite tooling may be the answer giving similar performance to aluminium but for a fraction of the cost.

Edited October 31, 2017 by frobisher

[GordonC]

Agreed..

I think we already know the answer to the question as well.

 

The 87 should be benchmarked against Hornby’s other investments.. the Duchess and the SECR H, both of which are sold out before delivery.

 

The 87 is available to pre-order everywhere, including Hornby’s website. It is not obvious to see it sold out any where.

Unless Hornby are making more 87’s than Duchesses, one would have to assume Duchesses are outselling 87’s, long before reaching the shelves.

 

From an accountants perspective that’s a black and white obvious decision, if the Peckett wasn’t obvious enough.

 

As side of an 81, 86 or a brave man to risk an 89 there not much left in AC electrics.

But if they don’t sell it’s infinitely more risky to do an AC EMU or class 91, which is 3 or 4 times greater risk and cost due to the extra carriages unique to that ensemble. That Bachmanns 350’s are in the bargain bin, preceded not once but twice by differing Class 85 releases doesn’t help the cause either.

 

It would seem AC is a bit line neutral really.

 

The Class 85 releases have never been in the 'bargain bin' in the way that some releases have. What about the batch of life-extended Class 47s - 47365, 47745 and 47834 ... they practically couldn't give them away with prices down to about half full RRP price. Does that make Class 47s bad sellers?

[Pete the Elaner]

I think there is a big difference between the sale of kits and the sale of really top quality RTR.

Indeed, but I never said anything of the sort.

[wombatofludham]

Well, you can get Hornby NER Q6s, J15s, Claud Hamiltons, Bachmann Lanky Tanks, RODs, Patriots and Standard 5s at significant discounts between 30 and 45% off list price at certain box shifters at the moment so clearly those crying out for Hornby and Bachmann to make more 0-6-0s, NER or other old tea urns have got no chance as clearly kettles don't sell.

​Or, on the other hand, it may be discounting to clear space for new shipments.

 

Just because an item appears with nealy 50% off at Railhattons doesn't mean it's sales death, after all how do you kinow what the manufacturer expected in sales targets for the item, they may have budgeted for a slower uptake on certain models to create interest and perhaps stimulate a new market - which is what Bachmann did with the 4-CEP, which later led to the traditionally more cautious Hornby to produce their range of Southern milkfloats.  I doubt Hornby would have jumped in with the VEP, BIL and HAL had Bachmann not tested the market with the CEP and EPB, and it looks like Hornby are doing likewise with the 87 after Bachmann produced the 85 and announced the 90.

 

Personally I take ugger ball notice of deep discounting at box shifters as a proxy for "how well an item sells".  We have absolutely no idea what deals the retailers are getting for stuff, whether the retailer has pornographic photos of their local sales reps and are extorting deep discounts or whether the manufacturers have decided they have made sufficient on an item to clear the remaining stock.  I noticed several major box shifters, and smaller outlets, suddenly got some suspiciously similarly priced Class 150s and 350s on their websites shortly after Bachmann said that up to a dozen delayed items were arriving before Christmas.  I doubt very much it was a case of 150s don't sell - they are releasing new liveries in the model as we speak - but I suspect they wanted some space in the warehouse and decided to encourage sales.  The fact is unless you are on the board of directors at Hornby or Bachmann, you won't know whether an item has been a disappointing seller or not.  Even retailers will only know relative to their own business, I suspect the market for AC electrics in Cornwall or here in Wales is somewhat less than in areas where such locos are or were seen regularly.  Given Bachmann have committed funding at an uncertain time for their business to a new Class 90, and Hornby likewise to a Class 87, that says to me that both boards of directors are happy that the AC electric market is one to grow and are putting their money where their toolings are. 

 

That's a signal of confidence, not pessimism. 

[sorabain]

I wonder how much of this "electrics don't sell well" is a self-fulfilling prophecy. If us, "the converted", feel that the 87 might not sell quickly then some will be tempted to hold off and wait for the "bargain basement" prices, saving some cash on this particular model, but hurting our own chances of further models we might desire down the line.

 

I'm jumping in with both feet, no waiting.

[wombatofludham]

I wonder how much of this "electrics don't sell well" is a self-fulfilling prophecy. If us, "the converted", feel that the 87 might not sell quickly then some will be tempted to hold off and wait for the "bargain basement" prices, saving some cash on this particular model, but hurting our own chances of further models we might desire down the line.

 

I'm jumping in with both feet, no waiting.

 

Ditto.  I also think it's only some who think that electrics don't sell.  Clearly Hornby and Bachmann don't otherwise the investment in the 90 and 87 would have gone into some sort of freak kettle to grab the grey pounds whilst they are still breathing.  

[andyman7]

All I can say is that AC electric sell well with me