NXEA! Posted July 22, 2018 Share Posted July 22, 2018 (edited) The level of opposition to an advance in technology, is quite surprising in all honesty. Each to their own, but with us demanding ever more detail and technology in what can be very small models such as this one, I don’t see why it’s such a shock that MR/Rapido have plumped for a motor with known qualities that ticks all the boxes? Personally, I look forward to receiving my one (or two if I scrape together the pennies). As an aside, could someone answer my question on Page 17 if they know please? It’s probably been lost in the ensuing debate/froth. Edited July 22, 2018 by NXEA! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dibber25 Posted July 22, 2018 Author Share Posted July 22, 2018 It would be interesting to know what was specified in terms of electrical supply, compatibility and performance for this and other new models. The Rapido team seem to be sound production engineers and ingenious designers. Had the need for compatibility with ALL currently produced control systems been specified - and possibly sample systems provided - it is possible that they would have derived a different engineering solution, possibly reducing the (unrealistic?) load hauling capacity in the interests of satisfying a wider market. As a matter on interest, has anybody actually tested this model on a feedback controller? The haulage capacity is not 'unrealistic'. 'J70s' on the Wisbech & Upwell routinely took upwards of 50 four-wheel vans over the tramway in the harvest season. There are illustrations of such trains. I would quote the source of such pictures but all my reference books are currently out of my hands, with the J70 research package. I believe that the haulage capacity has been reduced SLIGHTLY since my original test because of a change to the gearing. The only people who have tested the model - and they have been engineering prototypes not production models - have been staff of Rapido and Model Rail. (CJL) 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium cctransuk Posted July 22, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 22, 2018 ...with us demanding ever more detail and technology in what can be very small models ... I'm not sure that's universally the case - or even desirable. Detail - when it's got to the point where it is proving difficult for manufacturers to deliver their products unbroken in transit, one might argue that the search for ever more detail has already gone a little too far. Technology - well, that depends on whether you want realistic locos that pull realistic trains, or you like tweaking decoders, speakers and other electonic gadgetry in a vain hope of making a 1:76 scale model sound like the sheer mass and power of the 1:1 prototype. It is possible to scale performance, but not presence. Regards, John Isherwood. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dibber25 Posted July 22, 2018 Author Share Posted July 22, 2018 The level of opposition to an advance in technology, is quite surprising in all honesty. Each to their own, but with us demanding ever more detail and technology in what can be very small models such as this one, I don’t see why it’s such a shock that MR/Rapido have plumped for a motor with known qualities that ticks all the boxes? Personally, I look forward to receiving my one (or two if I scrape together the pennies). As an aside, could someone answer my question on Page 17 if they know please? It’s probably been lost in the ensuing debate/froth. Sorry, at this stage I have no information on that. We have no plans for sound-fitted models at this time. (CJL) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold NHY 581 Posted July 22, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 22, 2018 It would be interesting to know what was specified in terms of electrical supply, compatibility and performance for this and other new models.The Rapido team seem to be sound production engineers and ingenious designers. Had the need for compatibility with ALL currently produced control systems been specified - and possibly sample systems provided - it is possible that they would have derived a different engineering solution, possibly reducing the (unrealistic?) load hauling capacity in the interests of satisfying a wider market.As a matter on interest, has anybody actually tested this model on a feedback controller? The haulage capacity is not 'unrealistic'. 'J70s' on the Wisbech & Upwell routinely took upwards of 50 four-wheel vans over the tramway in the harvest season. There are illustrations of such trains. I would quote the source of such pictures but all my reference books are currently out of my hands, with the J70 research package. I believe that the haulage capacity has been reduced SLIGHTLY since my original test because of a change to the gearing. The only people who have tested the model - and they have been engineering prototypes not production models - have been staff of Rapido and Model Rail. (CJL) I can't keep up with this....!!! Most models get critised for not pulling enough........now we are concerned it will pull too much.....good grief.!! Worlds gone mad... Rob Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NXEA! Posted July 22, 2018 Share Posted July 22, 2018 (edited) I'm not sure that's universally the case - or even desirable. Detail - when it's got to the point where it is proving difficult for manufacturers to deliver their products unbroken in transit, one might argue that the search for ever more detail has already gone a little too far. Technology - well, that depends on whether you want realistic locos that pull realistic trains, or you like tweaking decoders, speakers and other electonic gadgetry in a vain hope of making a 1:76 scale model sound like the sheer mass and power of the 1:1 prototype. It is possible to scale performance, but not presence. Regards, John Isherwood. As with all debates there are two points of view, but I think there's an element of contradiction in your comment on technology. By the looks of it we're getting a highly detailed and realistic model that can pull over 30 wagons, and one that has the latest DCC technology (Next18) and caters for sound, it's not a case of one or the other as you're seemingly implying. To each their own, but there's nothing wrong with sound, I find running trains on the layout with sound even more enjoyable, and the sound files and speakers are continuously improving. I can't say I'd denigrate those who want to use homemade or older controllers so they can continue using older stock, it's not my cup of tea, but I appreciate this hobby is a broad church and people have lots of affection for older models and don't want to move them on. But at the same time, things move on, and DCC Sound et al is increasingly on the up, getting more realistic, and getting cheaper over time, so MR (IMO) have made the right decision in speccing the J70 the way they have. Edited July 22, 2018 by NXEA! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NXEA! Posted July 22, 2018 Share Posted July 22, 2018 (edited) Sorry, at this stage I have no information on that. We have no plans for sound-fitted models at this time. (CJL) No worries Chris, a quick google brings up nothing from an after-market supplier, so I guess we'll have to wait and see! Hearing the bell of the J70 trundling along with a few wagons behind would be lovely. Edited July 22, 2018 by NXEA! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NXEA! Posted July 22, 2018 Share Posted July 22, 2018 I've no idea to be honest. Maybe they were like a Cockerill? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AoOti9KzQcw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6NdrKchM6YY Jason Sorry for missing your post Jason. I'd never heard of or seen a Cockerill until now but they're rather delightful aren't they! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted July 22, 2018 Share Posted July 22, 2018 I think there is still a lot of confusion over this Coreless motor issue . It might be useful if actually there was a list of controllers , I’m thinking the main suppliers , Hornby, Gaugemaster , ECM? On whether they are feedback or not. I think there is still confusion , for instance , on whether the current main Hornby Controller , the HM2000 is a feedback Controller . From the supplier of locomotives you can’t expect them to test the loco on every conceivable controller but I think they do need to make it clear that if it’s decided to use a Coreless motor there maybe issues. I’m not keen on this creeping implementation of coreless motors .I would hope that when designing new locomotives backward capacity would be considered and built in, Hattons seem to have achieved this on some relatively small locos. Doesn’t seem to be the case here and those operating older systems just seem to be summarily dismissed. I’m getting a little fed up that users of DC or Analogue are branded as second class , as the rest have moved onto something superior. There are arguments for both DC and DCC but it’s not as clear cut as some would make out. Neither is the % takeup of DCC in the full model Railways market clear. There’s an aspect of the Emperors new clothes here. For me , I have a large loft layout , which with my current controllers ,Gaugemaster DS (is this feedback?)and and an old H&M Clipper with High Frequency Track Cleaners, requires minimal maintenance and cleaning . I get good running from a crawl to relatively high speeds. Bachmann, Hornby,Triang ,Lima,Wrenn,Dapol even the new Hattons Barclays no problem. It’s important for me that if I fancy a quick running session in the loft I don’t spend the first hour cleaning the track, which would be a real disincentive . So it works for me . No intention of changing it to accomodate the occasional coreless loco . Of course if this creeping “corelessisation” continues I will have to eventually reconsider . The Hornby controller and Gaugemaster aren't feedback controllers. The Gaugemaster feedback controllers have an F in their name. http://www.gaugemaster.com/panels.html Single Track Panel Mounted Controller with Feedback* for most small Gauges. *Not recommended for use with coreless design motor. May not be suitable for use with some DCC ready locomotives Jason Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted July 22, 2018 Share Posted July 22, 2018 Sorry for missing your post Jason. I'd never heard of or seen a Cockerill until now but they're rather delightful aren't they! Love them. Built to do a similar job as the J70s, mainly in France and Belgium. There are a few now in the UK. http://www.internationalsteam.co.uk/trams/steamtram09.htm I think that's the closest you will get to a J70 working today. Sound wise it just seems to be like a normal locomotive. Jason Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkSG Posted July 22, 2018 Share Posted July 22, 2018 The haulage capacity is not 'unrealistic'. 'J70s' on the Wisbech & Upwell routinely took upwards of 50 four-wheel vans over the tramway in the harvest season. There are illustrations of such trains. I would quote the source of such pictures but all my reference books are currently out of my hands, with the J70 research package. I believe that the haulage capacity has been reduced SLIGHTLY since my original test because of a change to the gearing. The only people who have tested the model - and they have been engineering prototypes not production models - have been staff of Rapido and Model Rail. (CJL) The Wisbech and Upwell Centenary Album, available from Amazon, is probably the best printed resource. One incident recounted in the book is when J70 7131 left Upwell with 48 fully loaded fruit vans, and by Elm Bridge Depot was getting short of water and had to uncouple from the train and run light to Wisbech to fill up. For a relatively small loco they had impressive pulling power, although of course the low speeds on the tramway helped in that respect. There are some good photos on Flickr, including this lengthy train: https://www.flickr.com/photos/17889585@N03/5201641055/in/album-72157625454437130/ 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold tetsudofan Posted July 23, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 23, 2018 I have no objection to that (minority?) sector of modellers who enjoy DCC control getting on with it - what I do object to is being forced to pay ever higher prices for features that are of no use to me whatsoever. I also object to being told that DCC is, of necessity, the future. When prices and complexity eventually go 'beyond-the-pale', I am willing to bet that the affected manufacturers launch a 'back-to-basics' range at significantly reduced prices. Regards, John Isherwood. Its a good job that you are not a purchaser of Trix or Maerklin models - you look at their latest new release catalogues and you will see that virtually every new release comes fitted with dcc (plus Maerklin mfx) and sound. There is no choice, if you want one of these models.... Not sure, though, whether Maerklin use coreless motors.... but they are still using three-rail technology. Anyway think we've spent too much time talking again about coreless motors so hope we can go back to talking about the other features of the subject of this thread - the J70..... Keith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PaulRhB Posted July 23, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 23, 2018 I'll buy a J70 and run it on my layout which is one engine in steam for dc or multiple in dcc. The chip will set me back £20 ish but once it's chipped and to be honest I'm just spending that as it avoids buying a load of section switches and even more wiring for the control panel There's not a lot in it for smaller layouts cost wise so it's personal choice and that's all they are doing, offering both markets a model that would be impossible to justify financially if there was a dc version with one motor and dcc with another. As Chris said they made a design spec and Rapido offered a solution that works for both with their expertise. Combined they made a decision that coreless motors did what they want and will appeal to a large enough market that they will get their return on investment. Sorry but that upsets a few but compromise is inevitable and if you really want it and hate coreless motors then I'm sure you can get someone to replace it with a motor of your choice in a custom mount. It's not like previous coreless motored models have failed to sell and been universally panned for the motor. Lots of products are hyped on some supposedly top notch feature that barely makes a difference but a certain part of the market like that so hey ho. Anyway my last G scale J70 had two AA batteries and a cheapo 3v motor so I'm looking forward to this rather nice little model. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dibber25 Posted July 23, 2018 Author Share Posted July 23, 2018 (edited) No I'm not - it is just one of the reasons why loco prices are going up and up. I know of no evidence whatsoever that DCC "... gives more reliable running, particularly at low speed ..."; perhaps you could expand on this? All of my locos - RTR and self-built - run extremely reliably; with the latter even better than the former. Simply changing the electronic means by which DC electricity is supplied to the motor cannot affect the way in which the motor and mechanism perform. I can realistically control multiple locos on a layout using traditional DC - which I completely understand; I don't need complex electronics - which are well beyond most modellers' understanding - in order to achieve this. That there is a body of modellers which actively enjoys tweaking its electronic systems of control is beyond denial; that there is a (larger?) body of modellers who have no time for such things is equally apparent. The main argument against universal use of DCC is, though, that of very significant additional cost - and that too is undeniable. Regards, John Isherwood. But MOST of the reasons prices are going up have to do with the economy, inflation, international exchange rates and the increases labour costs in China. Nothing related to DCC has increased the cost of the 'J70' and beyond the provision of a hole in the chassis, there is no other provision for sound. My understanding is that coreless motors are generally LESS expensive than other types but, since the J70 was planned from the outset with this motor it won't have affected the cost one way or another. While I see from your earlier post that you have different controllers for different locomotives, I suspect that I'm probably not alone in having my main layout as analog DC (for all my 50+ years of 'collected' equipment and Model Rail's review samples when necessary, although the magazines test layout can operate as DC or DCC) and a separate layout, the recently-built Cornish harbour layout, with DCC operation and a limited amount of, mostly railcars with sound, which to run on it. That way I can enjoy the best of the old and the new. (CJL) Edited July 23, 2018 by dibber25 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dibber25 Posted July 23, 2018 Author Share Posted July 23, 2018 Perhaps Admin can remove all the pro/anti DCC debate posts from this topic to somewhere more appropriate, as they are not directly related to the Model Rail/Rapido 'J70'? (CJL) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Y Posted July 24, 2018 Share Posted July 24, 2018 Perhaps Admin can remove all the pro/anti DCC debate posts from this topic to somewhere more appropriate, as they are not directly related to the Model Rail/Rapido 'J70'? (CJL) A fair point; I have removed numerous posts now which stray too far from the intended subject matter. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
south_tyne Posted July 24, 2018 Share Posted July 24, 2018 Back on topic... I for one cannot wait for the J70 to come to the market. Chris and Model Rail should be congratulated for doing something very different but very special, although I realise I am somewhat biased Given Rapido's track record this will be a stunning model and well worth the wait! Look forward to the release in due course Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norton Wood Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 Back on topic... I for one cannot wait for the J70 to come to the market. Chris and Model Rail should be congratulated for doing something very different but very special, although I realise I am somewhat biased Given Rapido's track record this will be a stunning model and well worth the wait! Look forward to the release in due course Nothing wrong with liking the GER or the area which makes up East Anglia Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 Where's East Angular though? I thought that was abroad.... Jason Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dibber25 Posted July 25, 2018 Author Share Posted July 25, 2018 Assembly of the first approved 'J70' models has started - two in LNER livery. See Model Rail's Facebook page for progress. (CJL) 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
2750Papyrus Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 Where's East Angular though? I thought that was abroad.... Jason Just round the corner...... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garethp8873 Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 Assembly of the first approved 'J70' models has started - two in LNER livery. See Model Rail's Facebook page for progress. (CJL) Oh **** x 5 LNER versions Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
south_tyne Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 Assembly of the first approved 'J70' models has started - two in LNER livery. See Model Rail's Facebook page for progress. (CJL) Fantastic news Chris! So will it be a gradual release of the first batch of liveries or will assembly be in groups before all being shipped together? Cheers, David Oh **** x 5 LNER versions Sounds like an expensive time! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dibber25 Posted July 26, 2018 Author Share Posted July 26, 2018 Fantastic news Chris! So will it be a gradual release of the first batch of liveries or will assembly be in groups before all being shipped together? Cheers, David Sounds like an expensive time! I suspect they will all be shipped at the same time in order to make shipping/customs etc easier. We haven't seen any livery samples of the BR ones yet. There just happened to be a production slot available earlier than expected, and these J70s were ready to go. (CJL) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
south_tyne Posted July 27, 2018 Share Posted July 27, 2018 I suspect they will all be shipped at the same time in order to make shipping/customs etc easier. We haven't seen any livery samples of the BR ones yet. There just happened to be a production slot available earlier than expected, and these J70s were ready to go. (CJL) Excellent news Chris and thanks for the clarification. David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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