Little Muddle

[KNP]

Pity you don't live nearer Kevin, I'm up to 74 Locos now, FAR TO MANY for my little Train Set, but I can and DO run different eras, this weekend it will be MR / BR Std's, Steam and Diesels I expect.

 

Not that far looking at the map so one day the labourer, wheelbarrow and unpainted dog could be at your doorstep looking for their next job????

 

I might explore further a variation to the era where only minimal changes are needed to the buildings etc., but there are quite a few bits to do to this layout better I start scratching head with the thought 'now what'

[KNP]

So to dispel the mini panic that I caused earlier here is my latest picture hot off the photo editing page.

 

 

 

Modelu figures in the Pannier and Noch on the seat.

Look OK until you put them together, the answer is actually quite simple - keep them apart!

Edited March 9 by KNP

[BWsTrains]

THREE Locos? How about running some different eras, maybe BR, and early Desalinisation,  It will give you an excuse to run all new Stock and another set of pics with maybe some Southern Stock migrating into LM as John Flann has done with Port Bredy and Hintock.

Andy,

 

We've one of them there things here in Melbourne for when it doesn't rain enough, cost us all a mint (several $Bn), doesn't run much and not on tracks! So we are definitely in Early Desalinisation era (BTW desalination is the preferred term) here, not so Little Muddle where they can't stretch even to buying a new engine

 

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/desalinisation

 

Edited August 24, 2017 by BWsTrains

[BWsTrains]

So to dispel the mini panic that I caused earlier here is my latest picture hot off the photo editing page.

 

983.jpg

 

Modelu figures in the Pannier and Noch on the seat.

Look OK until you put them together, the answer is actually quite simple - keep them apart!

Nice one Kevin,

 

I've a question for the GWR gurus here to clarify.

"Prof" Wikipedia in her 57xx Class entry shows GWR 5700 Class (sic) no. 4612 photo, as preserved on the Bodmin & Wenford Railway proudly bearing "GREAT WESTERN" as here on Little Muddle. Yet further down the page lists its DOB as Sep 1941 – Nov 1942 part of Lot 330, in which case it would have sported "G W R" from manufacture and not the earlier moniker.

 

The B&WR website shows a current photo with 4612 sporting "G W R" so they might have corrected this error since the original photo. Either way, the late 8750 Class don't belong in the mid 30's as I understand it.

 

I have the same issue with my late build 8750 Class (6757) that I'd like to take back to an earlier build / Insignia, I guess there will be minor inaccuracies in the fittings, assuming that Bachmann have modelled a late 8750 in the first place???

 

Colin

Edited August 24, 2017 by BWsTrains

[The Johnster]

The Wartime G W R initials livery was introduced in 1942 (not sure which month) and was black except for Halls, Castles and Kings, which were unlined green and had a G crest W insignia on the tender.  Lining for passenger engines and unlined green for others was re-introduced post war but the G crest W insignia on Halls, Castles and Kings, extended by now to the 10xx Counties, and G W R for other locos was continued until nationalisation.   4612 would have been outshopped new depending on the actual date of entry into service in either the 1930s 'shirtbutton' device unlined green or in 'G W R' black, not the 'GREAT WESTERN' unlined green livery.  The 8750 variant of the 57xx class were introduced in 1933, and only the first series would have carried that livery.

 

The top feed was also introduced in 1942, presumably with this series of loco from lot 330, but, as boilers were freely exchanged between locos during overhauls, found their way on to earlier locos and later locos could appear without it; it is best to work from photos of the loco you are modelling at a specific period if that is possible.  The reason for this is that it takes longer to overhaul a boiler than the rest of the loco, and a loco otherwise complete would be fitted with the next available boiler that would fit it in order to be returned to service.

 

6757 was built as part of lot 362 in 1947, so would have appeared with top feed originally, in unlined green G W R initials livery.  The 6750 variant were designed as pure shunting locomotives mostly for dock work in South Wales and Avonmouth, and had steam brakes only, no vacuum or steam heating pipes, and 3-link, not screw, couplings.

 

The Wikipedia entry for the class has colour photos of all the GW liveries carried by the locos except 'grotesque', see next paragraph, but omits the early BR 'BRITISH RAILWAYS' liveries, of which there were two prior to the introduction of the first BR 'cycling lion' device in 1949; locos outshopped new or from overhaul in the first 5 months of 1948 carried the lettering in the pre-1934 Egyptian Serif GW style, and those from May 1948 to the beginning of 1949 carried it in Gill Sans standard BR style.  

 

A further variant is that locos overhauled at Caerphilly Works during the austerity period 1942 until the end of WW2  carried G W R initials in a plain, sans serif, style in yellow paint, called grotesque but actually a very simple lettering.  It was smaller than the 'normal' G W R of that period, and unshaded.

 

Liveries, especially in the period between 1942 and 1949, were a complex issue and this is only a very general guide; I am sure that those of greater erudition in the matter will be able to help should you need more information.

Edited August 25, 2017 by The Johnster

[KNP]

Thanks BWs Trains and The Johnster but it looks like 2 of my 3 trains are wrong for the mid 1930's

 

 

 

I always thought the Prairie was but not the Pannier!

 

Looks like I might need to do some further research and may have found my next project.....!!!!

Edited March 9 by KNP

[Andrew P]

Thanks BWs Trains and The Johnster it looks like then 2 of my 3 trains are wrong for the mid 1930's

 

627.JPG

 

I always thought the Prairie was but not the Pannier!

 

Looks like I might need to do some further research and may have found my next project.....!!!!

Does it matter?  They look nice and so I say leave it. When we have small discrepancies like that, it's nothing compared to running on narrow Tracks or Steam Trains driven by Electric Motors.

 

Your Locos are lovely, I say LEAVE EM BE.

[KNP]

On 25/08/2017 at 08:08, Andrew P said:

Does it matter?  They look nice and so I say leave it. When we have small discrepancies like that, it's nothing compared to running on narrow Tracks or Steam Trains driven by Electric Motors.

 

Your Locos are lovely, I say LEAVE EM BE.

 

I suspect that is what I'll do - Leave them -  but in the future when buying new ones I will be much more selective and check before purchasing.

 

Yes, I will be buying some more........, first in the process will be the Dapol streamlined railcar to replace my Hornby one (No.29) which I discovered was built in 1940-41 but that was only after I bought it - impulse buy at an exhibition?

This one I knew about which is why she has never appeared so to rectify that here she is......not finished and now packed away in the box for safe keeping....

 

 

 

To be honest, the only one I was looking at working on was the Prairie and that would be by just removing the GWR letters and replacing with a monogram.

Edited March 9 by KNP

[The Great Bear]

The Wartime G W R initials livery was introduced in 1942 (not sure which month) and was black except for Halls, Castles and Kings, which were unlined green and had a G crest W insignia on the tender

Halls until end of war were black (as were Saints and Stars) but with G crest W methinks but suspect there were variations to practise. Great Western Railway Journal No.7 rings a bell for an article on this. Quite a few other threads on here too.

 

All the best

 

Jon

[The Johnster]

You could fairly easily re-livery the prairie, simply a matter of removing the 'G W R' (T-cut? or thinners) and replacing it with either 'GREAT WESTERN' or the shirtbutton monogram.  The pannier could also be brought into line with a little more work; a similar re-livery job and removal of the top feed, followed by a renumber with etched plates, but the harder part is the removal of the top feed and the supply pipes to it.  It has to be hacked off and the plastic filed and smoothed down to make good, at which time it makes sense to repaint the whole body.  The 8750-99, 9711-99, and 37xx series are suitable for your period.  

 

The railcar is more resolutely out of period, and you already intend to replace it with a streamline one which is more suitable.  Avoid 2-4 and 10-12, fitted respectively with a buffet counter. and lavatory and more suitable for main line work (2-4 were used on Cardiff-Birmingham services).  I do not know off hand which prototype Dapol are going to produce.

 

Whether you bother with any of this is up to you, and if you are happy with things as they are there is no reason to do any of it.  Rule 1 trumps anything else, and you have built a superb layout which captures the essence of the prototype in terms of location and atmosphere excellently well; your scenery and buildings are, frankly, inspirational.  If you are going to hack the pannier about, it might be worth obtaining a spare body from Ebay to practice on.  Personally, I would just renumber it in the 8750-99 series which would mean not having to re-livery, and leave the top feed for rivet counters to moan about!

[KNP]

You could fairly easily re-livery the prairie, simply a matter of removing the 'G W R' (T-cut? or thinners) and replacing it with either 'GREAT WESTERN' or the shirtbutton monogram.  The pannier could also be brought into line with a little more work; a similar re-livery job and removal of the top feed, followed by a renumber with etched plates, but the harder part is the removal of the top feed and the supply pipes to it.  It has to be hacked off and the plastic filed and smoothed down to make good, at which time it makes sense to repaint the whole body.  The 8750-99, 9711-99, and 37xx series are suitable for your period.  

 

The railcar is more resolutely out of period, and you already intend to replace it with a streamline one which is more suitable.  Avoid 2-4 and 10-12, fitted respectively with a buffet counter. and lavatory and more suitable for main line work (2-4 were used on Cardiff-Birmingham services).  I do not know off hand which prototype Dapol are going to produce.

 

Whether you bother with any of this is up to you, and if you are happy with things as they are there is no reason to do any of it.  Rule 1 trumps anything else, and you have built a superb layout which captures the essence of the prototype in terms of location and atmosphere excellently well; your scenery and buildings are, frankly, inspirational.  If you are going to hack the pannier about, it might be worth obtaining a spare body from Ebay to practice on.  Personally, I would just renumber it in the 8750-99 series which would mean not having to re-livery, and leave the top feed for rivet counters to moan about!

 

Many thanks for this.

The Prairie I plan to remove the letters and add the monogram.

Pannier I will probably leave for now, might even get a replacement one like the Heljan 1366 for example, that caught the eye, or renumber it as you suggested at a later date.

 

Railcar I believe they are producing 7 and 12 in cream/chocolate so will now go for No.7.

[KNP]

Many thanks for this.

The Prairie I plan to remove the letters and add the monogram.

Pannier I will probably leave for now, might even get a replacement one like the Heljan 1366 for example, that caught the eye, or renumber it as you suggested at a later date.

 

Railcar I believe they are producing 7 and 12 in cream/chocolate so will now go for No.7.

Edit

The above came from the Dapol website but looking at their advert in the BRM magazine it says they are producing 8, 11 & 12!

[The Stationmaster]

The Wartime G W R initials livery was introduced in 1942 (not sure which month) and was black except for Halls, Castles and Kings, which were unlined green and had a G crest W insignia on the tender.  Lining for passenger engines and unlined green for others was re-introduced post war but the G crest W insignia on Halls, Castles and Kings, extended by now to the 10xx Counties, and G W R for other locos was continued until nationalisation.   4612 would have been outshopped new depending on the actual date of entry into service in either the 1930s 'shirtbutton' device unlined green or in 'G W R' black, not the 'GREAT WESTERN' unlined green livery.  The 8750 variant of the 57xx class were introduced in 1933, and only the first series would have carried that livery.

 

The top feed was also introduced in 1942, presumably with this series of loco from lot 330, but, as boilers were freely exchanged between locos during overhauls, found their way on to earlier locos and later locos could appear without it; it is best to work from photos of the loco you are modelling at a specific period if that is possible.  The reason for this is that it takes longer to overhaul a boiler than the rest of the loco, and a loco otherwise complete would be fitted with the next available boiler that would fit it in order to be returned to service.

 

6757 was built as part of lot 362 in 1947, so would have appeared with top feed originally, in unlined green G W R initials livery.  The 6750 variant were designed as pure shunting locomotives mostly for dock work in South Wales and Avonmouth, and had steam brakes only, no vacuum or steam heating pipes, and 3-link, not screw, couplings.

 

The Wikipedia entry for the class has colour photos of all the GW liveries carried by the locos except 'grotesque', see next paragraph, but omits the early BR 'BRITISH RAILWAYS' liveries, of which there were two prior to the introduction of the first BR 'cycling lion' device in 1949; locos outshopped new or from overhaul in the first 5 months of 1948 carried the lettering in the pre-1934 Egyptian Serif GW style, and those from May 1948 to the beginning of 1949 carried it in Gill Sans standard BR style.  

 

A further variant is that locos overhauled at Caerphilly Works during the austerity period 1942 until the end of WW2  carried G W R initials in a plain, sans serif, style in yellow paint, called grotesque but actually a very simple lettering.  It was smaller than the 'normal' G W R of that period, and unshaded.

 

Liveries, especially in the period between 1942 and 1949, were a complex issue and this is only a very general guide; I am sure that those of greater erudition in the matter will be able to help should you need more information.

 

And of course some (if not more than a few) 'Castles' and 'Kings' repainted during the war years were fully lined out as reported in contemporaneous magazines.

[The Johnster]

Many thanks for this.

The Prairie I plan to remove the letters and add the monogram.

Pannier I will probably leave for now, might even get a replacement one like the Heljan 1366 for example, that caught the eye, or renumber it as you suggested at a later date.

 

Railcar I believe they are producing 7 and 12 in cream/chocolate so will now go for No.7.

 

1366 if you can find work for it.  These short wheelbase engines were not particularly suitable for even branch running lines and tended to be restricted to dock/harbour work or very localised trip freight; they were of course drafted in to replace the Beattie Well Tanks on the Wenford Bridge line in North Cornwall after the area was absorbed into the WR.  

 

Or of course apply Rule 1.

[sjrixon]

I'll look forward to you getting the railcar, I quite fancy one too. I've got a Lima one in a box, but same reason why it hardly ever runs, it's just too late a period. That and the layout is now DCC!

Edited August 25, 2017 by sjrixon

[mullie]

1366 if you can find work for it.  These short wheelbase engines were not particularly suitable for even branch running lines and tended to be restricted to dock/harbour work or very localised trip freight; they were of course drafted in to replace the Beattie Well Tanks on the Wenford Bridge line in North Cornwall after the area was absorbed into the WR.  

 

Or of course apply Rule 1.

Famously used on the Weymouth line through the streets to the harbour, the lines still exist but for how much longer is any ones guess.  Info on the class can be found here.

 

Martyn

[The Johnster]

The street running of the Weymouth boat traffic was perfect work for the 1366.  They were also used for trip work from Bristol Lawrence Hill yard.  But they are not suitable engines for line speed work even on quite slow passenger branches, and did not have the water capacity to wander far from a supply.

[KNP]

Ok, to play safe with this loco business here's a picture without one..................

 

 

 

This proved difficult to take as I had to stand on the roof of the shop outbuilding with my tripod and it stuck in the roofing felt, then on top of that the owner wasn't to happy either as they were closed at the time!

Edited March 9 by KNP

[KNP]

Just in time this morning to catch the early local train from Little Muddle as she swung into the bay platform at Encombe Town.

 

 

 

Dart Castings have sold me just the white metal castings for the autocoach conversion kit so that will allow me to fit the missing pipework.

Just waiting for it to turn up.

Edited March 9 by KNP

[Brian Hawkins]

This is fast becoming my favourite layout thread on RMweb, superb modelling Kevin. always look forward to more updates on here.

[KNP]

This is fast becoming my favourite layout thread on RMweb, superb modelling Kevin. always look forward to more updates on here.

 

Many thanks and have even more pictures I am currently working on.

 

I have to say that now I've nearly mastered full focal depth pictures with a better colour/shade balance this is fast becoming as important part of the hobby as building the layout.

[Andrew P]

Such a lovely simple little shot to study over breakfast, but loads of detail to look at like the Point Rodding to name just one nice delicate feature,  thanks Kevin.

[KNP]

4825 and autocoach entering Encombe Town but taken from the other side of the potato field by the shop outbuilding.

 

 

Edited March 9 by KNP

[The Stationmaster]

4825 and autocoach entering Encombe Town but taken from the other side of the potato field by the shop outbuilding.

 

991 - smoke.jpg

 

I should not have worked  on the railway - I should not have worked on the railway - because then I wouldn't have noticed the conflicting signals in that otherwise very nice picture 

[KNP]

I should not have worked  on the railway - I should not have worked on the railway - because then I wouldn't have noticed the conflicting signals in that otherwise very nice picture 

 

Not a problem but can you give us a clue?

They are not fixed just held in place with Blu Tack...........