Little Muddle

[Simond]

Mike,

 

This is entirely new to me.

 

Hypothesis: might the “location number” have anything to do with milepost numbers, or miles from Padd? The note in an earlier post saying that Padd was #1 might argue against this of course...

 

Most interested.

Simon

[KNP]

A further tweak which was refered to when posting to Stubby

 

 

 

A few areas to tidy up but it is working especially to the furthest joint beyond the bulge.

 

 

Edited March 19 by KNP

[Martin S-C]

I really like the triangle of overgrown wasteland beyond the dairy.

[KNP]

On 12/07/2018 at 10:48, Martin S-C said:

I really like the triangle of overgrown wasteland beyond the dairy.

 

Here's a closer picture of it.

 

 

 

basically it is hanging basket liner for the sub base, ripped off and trimmed with scissors and then MiniNatur grass mat cut/torn/ripped into finger nail sizes and randomly suck on the liner. In places leaving gaps where odd areas where filled with static grass.

Shrubs are from horsehair with grass flock sprinkled on, in some cases cut to stand upright. 

 

Notice edge of creamery module which is higher than the main board which helps conceal the joint.

Edited March 19 by KNP

[The Stationmaster]

Mike,

 

This is entirely new to me.

 

Hypothesis: might the “location number” have anything to do with milepost numbers, or miles from Padd? The note in an earlier post saying that Padd was #1 might argue against this of course...

 

Most interested.

Simon

 

They don't seem to be mileage related Simon although they are successive going down the line from Paddington, and oddly the 'Oxford branch' from Didcot comes in before the main line west of Didcot.  A good example of the disconnect from mileage is Twyford where milepost 31 sits in the centre of the station but in this series the numbers are in the 70s.   This is why I'm tending towards the view that they might be more timetable location based rather than anything else but they could well have another purpose?

[KNP]

They don't seem to be mileage related Simon although they are successive going down the line from Paddington, and oddly the 'Oxford branch' from Didcot comes in before the main line west of Didcot.  A good example of the disconnect from mileage is Twyford where milepost 31 sits in the centre of the station but in this series the numbers are in the 70s.   This is why I'm tending towards the view that they might be more timetable location based rather than anything else but they could well have another purpose?

 

Looking through each section page all stations seem to carry a location number, the well known Brent for example is 2005.

I wish I could remember where I read about these station numbers, it'll come to me when I'm not thinking about it.

[Harlequin]

They don't seem to be mileage related Simon although they are successive going down the line from Paddington, and oddly the 'Oxford branch' from Didcot comes in before the main line west of Didcot.  A good example of the disconnect from mileage is Twyford where milepost 31 sits in the centre of the station but in this series the numbers are in the 70s.   This is why I'm tending towards the view that they might be more timetable location based rather than anything else but they could well have another purpose?

They look like unique symbolic identifiers of locations on the network to me, arranged and maintained in a fairly logical way by some department in head office, which is why the order broadly follows the order along various lines, but with gaps and out of sequence insertions as the network changes.

(I can imagine a filing system in head office where records were indexed by these numbers... And they would be very useful in a modern database...)

 

The columns are headed "Station No." so might they be using the term "station" in a more general sense to mean any start locations, end locations and waypoints for a scheduled movement?

 

While these numbers do seem to be general purpose location identifiers they could be used to uniquely identify types of locations, such as passenger stations. (Passenger stations would be a subset of the general locations.) So they could conceivably have been used to label equipment belonging to a particular station, such as a dray.

Edited July 12, 2018 by Harlequin

[KNP]

Pictures using the main camera and the area does work much better with the main joint gone.

Why, oh why, haven't I done this before - it's a mystery to me!

 

 

 

 

Edited March 19 by KNP

[Simond]

They look like unique symbolic identifiers of locations on the network to me, arranged and maintained in a fairly logical way by some department in head office, which is why the order broadly follows the order along various lines, but with gaps and out of sequence insertions as the network changes.

(I can imagine a filing system in head office where records were indexed by these numbers... And they would be very useful in a modern database...)

 

The columns are headed "Station No." so might they be using the term "station" in a more general sense to mean any start locations, end locations and waypoints for a scheduled movement?

 

While these numbers do seem to be general purpose location identifiers they could be used to uniquely identify types of locations, such as passenger stations. (Passenger stations would be a subset of the general locations.) So they could conceivably have been used to label equipment belonging to a particular station, such as a dray.

Phil,

 

Thanks, the word “waypoint” triggered a thought. Are they / could they be timetable timing points?

 

Best

Simon

[Martin S-C]

It sounds like they are simply numerical identifiers for use in a database. The use of them to allocate station trucks to seems to support that.

 

Kevin, I would have thought it would not be too hard to allocate a number to "your" station for use on the delivery wagon based on whereabouts you consider your model to be located - just choose a number close in that sequence.

If delivery wagons are numbered thus, maybe various other items allocated to that station were as well, such as lamps, fire buckets, benches, barrows, etc? This would give a useful shorthand for accounting purposes.

"I wooden replacement bench for station 1374, at 25/-" and so on.

Edited July 12, 2018 by Martin S-C

[The Stationmaster]

They look like unique symbolic identifiers of locations on the network to me, arranged and maintained in a fairly logical way by some department in head office, which is why the order broadly follows the order along various lines, but with gaps and out of sequence insertions as the network changes.

(I can imagine a filing system in head office where records were indexed by these numbers... And they would be very useful in a modern database...)

 

The columns are headed "Station No." so might they be using the term "station" in a more general sense to mean any start locations, end locations and waypoints for a scheduled movement?

 

While these numbers do seem to be general purpose location identifiers they could be used to uniquely identify types of locations, such as passenger stations. (Passenger stations would be a subset of the general locations.) So they could conceivably have been used to label equipment belonging to a particular station, such as a dray.

 

But don't forget Phil at least a couple of them (one of which is not printed in that STT) apply to signals out in the middle of the country where there are no siding connections.

 

Interestingly I've never came across any files which could be logically (or even illogically) related to these numbers.  If they were in general inter-departmental use I would have expected to see them used in operating, commercial, civil engineering, and signal engineering filing systems as well as being used to reference s and drawings.  But even on files and plans going back a very long way they never seem to have appeared - they get no mention in the Rules & Instructions etc minute books which I have - which commenced in 1911 and they are definitely not used in the S&T works order record book which I have although it is basically 1880s-90s.

 

 I have had a read, albeit not in great depth, through the GWR accountancy instructions (1923 issue) and there is no reference to them there either, nor is there any reference to them in the GWR's 1920 issue of 'Goods Rates and Station Working'.  They are also not mentioned in the 1920 General Appendix  - where I would have expected to find them mentioned in connection with the preparation of reports if they were a location reference in general use.  Incidentally They don't appear in the July 1901 Section 1 STT and they're not in the Summer 1938 book either, nor are they in the July 1891 book (not that I'd have expected to find them there anyway).  I might somewhere have an STT from the period a bit later than than 1911 and before 1920 so it will be interesting to see if they lasted into that period.

Edited July 12, 2018 by The Stationmaster

[The Stationmaster]

Phil,

 

Thanks, the word “waypoint” triggered a thought. Are they / could they be timetable timing points?

 

Best

Simon

That continues to be approximately my view Simon although I'm obviously open to any other suggestions.  I'm reasonably sure they aren't timing points as such but could well be line (as in a line printed on the page) references which might or might not be used from time to time or as things changed in the locations listed in the station bank of an STT.

[81C]

Interesting topic, would they be a Linesman's marker post ? or did they work off the mile post. 

[Harlequin]

But don't forget Phil at least a couple of them (one of which is not printed in that STT) apply to signals out in the middle of the country where there are no siding connections.

 

Interestingly I've never came across any files which could be logically (or even illogically) related to these numbers.  If they were in general inter-departmental use I would have expected to see them used in operating, commercial, civil engineering, and signal engineering filing systems as well as being used to reference s and drawings.  But even on files and plans going back a very long way they never seem to have appeared - they get no mention in the Rules & Instructions etc minute books which I have - which commenced in 1911 and they are definitely not used in the S&T works order record book which I have although it is basically 1880s-90s.

 

 I have had a read, albeit not in great depth, through the GWR accountancy instructions (1923 issue) and there is no reference to them there either, nor is there any reference to them in the GWR's 1920 issue of 'Goods Rates and Station Working'.  They are also not mentioned in the 1920 General Appendix  - where I would have expected to find them mentioned in connection with the preparation of reports if they were a location reference in general use.  Incidentally They don't appear in the July 1901 Section 1 STT and they're not in the Summer 1938 book either, nor are they in the July 1891 book (not that I'd have expected to find them there anyway).  I might somewhere have an STT from the period a bit later than than 1911 and before 1920 so it will be interesting to see if they lasted into that period.

 

It's intriguing that these numbers existed and obviously had some useful purpose in some part of the GWR but that we can't find what they were for or find cross-references to them with all the resources available today.

 

The "Station No." column appears in the 1936 "Shrewsbury, Worcester, Hereford & Newport" STT on Michael Clemens's site... For example, Shrewsbury is 5527...

 

Maybe this deserves a thread of it's own?

Edited July 12, 2018 by Harlequin

[KNP]

From a simple question a mighty debate is growing.......

my apologies but it is intriguing.

 

All stations are measured from Paddington in miles and chains which is the first two columns but there appears to be no correlation with distance and station number! 

Every section is the same with Paddington being number 1, it is not only stations that have numbers, but signal boxes, sidings so are they some form of location identification like on motorways?

e.g. A message received about a train that it has passed No.90, look on list and that identifies Scours Lane Junction - 37m 60c from Paddington!!!

Edited July 12, 2018 by KNP

[Banger Blue]

I did notice that it wasn’t just Stations that were given a number but some junctions, signal boxes and sidings. I definitely think they are area related and in my opinion because of that they are location identifiers, a GWR forerunner to today’s CRS/TIPLOC/STANNOX codes.

 

Edit:

 

Just had a thought, the GWR used code words to ID wagons etc to shorten telegraph messages (thinking along the lines of MOGO vans etc), would these location numbers not be used for the same purpose?

Perhaps that’s why they only appear in STTs from a certain period.

Edited July 12, 2018 by Banger Blue

[Stubby47]

Would they be Driver references, rather than administration or accounting ones? Maybe for route training or firing purposes?

[bgman]

You're all wrong, they are random numbers for the drivers to pick when they used to do the Football Pools on a Saturday !

 

B.Beecee

Edited July 12, 2018 by bgman

[The Stationmaster]

Places (more) they do not appear -

 

GWR notice 1912 in respect of trains alterations and cancellations as a consequence of the coal strike

GWR Analysis Book 1926 ( a list of the origin of all lines owned or leased by the GWR at that time).

GWR Towns & Villages Book 1938 which contains a listing of almost every goods and parcels handling station on the GWR including all private sidings.

1930 Instructions for the severn tunnel - no numbers appear against location names.

 

Definitely not used for signalbox diagrams (which were included under the S&T Dept file number for each location signalbox in a S/4 alpha digits number series as far as I can establish and from old files I have seen in the past.

 

Not used on any contemporaneous consignment notes, invoices, labels, or waybills, (or handbills) I have in my collection of several hundred items.

 

Not used as part of Civil Engineer's line codes.

 

Not seemingly used for any sort of control/telegraphic purposes etc where alphabetical codes or mileages were used  (in a similar manner to the shed codes).

 

So I tend to come back to the STT line numbering theory or maybe an early attempt to introduce codes along the lines suggested by Dougie ('Banger Blue') which never took off because everyone else was using something else and it was NIH as far as they were concerned?

 

What might help is to see if the series corresponded to the Traffic Divisions as they stood in c.1911 but as there were 12 of those this has a problem right from the start.   In fact taking just these as examples - London, Reading, Bristol, Exeter, and Plymouth doesn't work either as one could possibly expect each to have a recognisably different number series for each and that definitely doesn't work in the case of London and Reading although it might work in respect of London vs Bristol with 1000 starting at what might have once been the boundary (although in fact I believe the boundary was further east, probably in the vicinity of Challow where it was many years later). 

 

BUT I have found one mention of 'Paddington 1' on a  Forces Leave Return to Torquay but there is no number shown for Torquay.  No such numbers appear on a Reading - Bourne End ordinary return, and I suspect the '1' on the Paddington ticket means it was issued from No.1 Booking Office.

Edited July 13, 2018 by The Stationmaster

[KNP]

Picture showing the now hidden gap.....

Will take a new one from the same angle to see the difference.

 

 

Edited March 19 by KNP

[Harlequin]

Here's another small contribution to the "Station No.s" puzzle:

Bewdley North and South boxes are referred to as "Train staff stations".

 

Also, notice the numbering of Bewdley North, Bewdley, and Bewdley South is out of sequence with the numbers around them. I guess the Bewdley numbers are in sequence on one of the other lines passing through the junction - possibly the line to Shrewsbury.

Edited July 15, 2018 by Harlequin

[The Stationmaster]

Here's another small contribution to the "Station No.s" puzzle:

SLP, WOS, HFD & HPT Summer 1936 page 87.png

Bewdley North and South boxes are referred to as "Train staff stations".

 

Also, notice the numbering of Bewdley North, Bewdley, and Bewdley South is out of sequence with the numbers around them. I guess the Bewdley numbers are in sequence on one of the other lines passing through the junction - possibly the line to Shrewsbury.

 

The Regulations referred to 'Train Staff (or Token etc) stations' as late as the 1972 edition so nothing at all unusual there - in fact I'd have been more surprised if it had said otherwise.

 

The numbering is in respect of three separate sections of route - hence Kidderminster locations are in one group, the route from Bewdley (exclusive) to  Leominster is in two others, changing at Woofferton as I would expect, while Bewdley would be numbered in the principal route series there which would have been Hartlebury - Buildwas (which possibly ran through to Shrewsbury Severn Valley Jcn).  

 

I suspect from the numbering that Woofferton (exclusive) - Bewdley (exclusive) is numbered as 'branch' line or sub-series of a main series from Shrewsbury (Coton Hill Jcn?), or possibly even Ludlow or Craven Arms, running south to Hereford

[stevejjjexcov]

This numbering thingy is getting complicated ain't it way over my head. Why not just pick a number and the hell with it? Whatever you do someone down the line will ALWAYS tell you its wrong lol

 

Steve

[Martin S-C]

...and when they do, you can ask them to explain why and what the real numbers mean. That way the work is done for you. Its the best use I know of for railway-know-it-alls.

[stevejjjexcov]

Couldn't agree more there is always some know it all twit who will tell you what you've done wrong. Usually armchair modelers at that.

 

Steve