bike2steam Posted May 29, 2017 Share Posted May 29, 2017 (edited) But 563 is a very old and very tired loco, look at the tyre tread depth for example. It's restoration is just not technically or economically feasible for the Swanage Railway, in my view. Dava You're not the only one to think that. Edited May 29, 2017 by bike2steam Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bon Accord Posted May 29, 2017 Share Posted May 29, 2017 Again, I would not be so negative, welsh pony was also deemed to be "past it" or "knackered", but here she is with a significant amount of progress made to her inevitable return to steam, and shes older than any of those locos you mention Remind us again how much of the restored Welsh Pony will be the same as the engine which went into the works? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killian keane Posted May 29, 2017 Share Posted May 29, 2017 Remind us again how much of the restored Welsh Pony will be the same as the engine which went into the works?Remind us again how much of scotsman was built in 1922? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PaulRhB Posted May 29, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 29, 2017 It's all about the money. She's going to degrade inevitably out in the open. Restoring her if you had the money all comes down to what evokes the past best? A static elegant loco or in steam? I'm afraid stuffed locos just don't hold the attention like a working one so do you let it rust away or keep patching it up and repainting until none of the visible stuff is original? Once you e done that over 50 years you may as well the. restore it as you won't be damaging an original loco I hope as part of the Corfe Museum it's regularly cleaned and protected but where it is you can't see the lower part which is half it's character. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul.Uni Posted May 29, 2017 Author Share Posted May 29, 2017 http://blog.nrm.org.uk/life-national-collection-managing-world-class-objects/ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Dava Posted May 29, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 29, 2017 Killian, I'm not being negative about rebuilding heritage locos, rather realistic. I was around in the 60's-80's and am familiar with all the locos concerned here. I was at the last runs of the Midland Compound and Butler Henderson for example. The old FR locos such as Welsh Pony are much smaller than main line locos of even the same generation. It and Palmerston were in effect recreations because so little original metal was fit for re-use. To rebuild a main line loco from 1900 or earlier which has not run for decades is likely to involve an increasing amount of new material such that it's incompatible with conserving the original, which is why it's unlikely to happen with any of the NRM locos, especially after the debacle they had with mismanaging the 4472 rebuild. Don't expect to see 'City or Truro', 'Hardwick' or ''Green Arrow' coming back either. Whether it will be done with ex-NRM locos is interesting but the risk of a failed project is there. I actually think building replica locos is a much better way forward as we are now seeing with the 'Beachy Head', P2, 'Patriot' and a growing list of other projects where the boiler and materials will be capable of a much longer life and much more economical over their working lives. It completely avoids the trade-offs about how much to conserve of the 'original' and delivers a much more reliable loco for commercial and main line operation. 'Scotsman' really needed a new boiler which would have been delivered at lower cost and with a longer operational life than the very costly rebuild the NRM required. Dava Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killian keane Posted May 29, 2017 Share Posted May 29, 2017 (edited) Scotsman is essentially a replica of a replica, shes been rebuilt so much, my point is, its not going to happen if everyone gives up hope that it will ever happen, yes new builds are great, but originals will always evoke more, by all means build new locos galore, but just don't give up on the old engines that realistically nobody will build a replica of, or will lose interest in near the end *cough* bloomer *cough* Edited May 29, 2017 by Killian keane Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bon Accord Posted May 29, 2017 Share Posted May 29, 2017 Remind us again how much of scotsman was built in 1922? That locomotive has been in near constant use for nearly a century and was heavily rebuilt during it's working life. From what I've read, restoration to running order of the T3 would probably mean renewing damn near all of it, which to me seems like wanton vandalism inflicted on a locomotive that is otherwise intact and has been untouched in 70 years. I say leave it be, if the Swanage (or anyone else) want a working T3 then build a real replica, rather than doing it by default with the current machine. N.B. As I recall the only substantial parts from pre-overhaul of Welsh Pony will be the wheel centres, everything else will be new. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted May 29, 2017 Share Posted May 29, 2017 A couple of storms and it'll resemble a Barry wreck. Oh they have too many 4-4-0s? They have two virtually identical Gresley Pacifics and an almost identical V2, and a shed load of NER locomotives. I don't see them parting with any of those. My feeling is that it's the thin end of the wedge and the National Collection is being broken up by bean counting civil servants helped by unknowledgeable and uncaring curators. Jason Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold chris p bacon Posted May 29, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 29, 2017 At least now she has a chance of steaming again, which is a lot more than she had at the nrm! Theres really no need to be so pessimistic about this 'spelling the end' etc, engines have moved about all over before now, usually into museums, not out, I think it great that engines that have either not steamed in preservation or have not steamed in decades are being given a sporting chance, wouldn't it be great to see the midland compound or caledonian single no. 123 run again? Swanage railway is not your normal preserved railway, it runs a very intensive service shifting holiday makers from cheap parking at Norden into Swanage (where there is very little parking) for a day at the seaside. It has no rail connected workshops and its locomotives are (apart from a couple of exceptions) owned and restored by SLL (Southern Locomotives ltd) and leased to the railway. There is a drive at present to re-connect with the main line at Wareham and the current coaching stock already has to be restored off site at workshops such as Ramparts as there is insufficient space and volunteer force. A locomotive like the T3 just doesn't fit with that at present, very nice to see such a locomotive running but it would take too much labour and money from the railway to restore. I would say that as an occasional C&W volunteer on the SR, I have had to go to Corfe a few times to cover graffiti that has been sprayed overnight on stock stored there. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted May 30, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 30, 2017 (edited) That locomotive has been in near constant use for nearly a century and was heavily rebuilt during it's working life. From what I've read, restoration to running order of the T3 would probably mean renewing damn near all of it, which to me seems like wanton vandalism inflicted on a locomotive that is otherwise intact and has been untouched in 70 years. I say leave it be, if the Swanage (or anyone else) want a working T3 then build a real replica, rather than doing it by default with the current machine. N.B. As I recall the only substantial parts from pre-overhaul of Welsh Pony will be the wheel centres, everything else will be new. If one wants to keep 563 as an intact historical artefact, rather than a running loco, giving it to an intensively-worked heritage railway (however well-intentioned) whose very limited under-cover accommodation is already fully utilised, doesn't seem a terribly smart move. Keeping it in the open where it is at present is likely to result in fairly rapid deterioration even if, by some minor miracle, it doesn't attract the attention of metal thieves. If it does, as a non-operational loco, any parts that do go missing are likely to be replaced with wooden dummies. So much for intact and untouched. The place for a museum-piece is in a museum, and the one on the Swanage Railway isn't big enough to hold an exhibit of this size IIRC. If this loco is to survive on the Swanage Railway in the long term, it will need to earn a living. I'm very much afraid that, unless it is restored to working order, whatever remains of the T3 in a decade or so might end up quietly scrapped or (at best) revert to the NRM and end up under a tarpaulin round the back of Shildon. John Edited May 30, 2017 by Dunsignalling Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bon Accord Posted May 30, 2017 Share Posted May 30, 2017 If one wants to keep 563 as an intact historical artefact, rather than a running loco, giving it to an intensively-worked heritage railway (however well-intentioned) whose very limited under-cover accommodation is already fully utilised, doesn't seem a terribly smart move. Keeping it in the open where it is at present is likely to result in fairly rapid deterioration even if, by some minor miracle, it doesn't attract the attention of metal thieves. If it does, as a non-operational loco, any parts that do go missing are likely to be replaced with wooden dummies. So much for intact and untouched. The place for a museum-piece is in a museum, and the one on the Swanage Railway isn't big enough to hold an exhibit of this size IIRC. If this loco is to survive on the Swanage Railway in the long term, it will need to earn a living. I'm very much afraid that, unless it is restored to working order, whatever remains of the T3 in a decade or so might end up quietly scrapped or (at best) revert to the NRM and end up under a tarpaulin round the back of Shildon. John John, Don't misunderstand me. My personal opinion is that it should never have left NRM ownership or York/Shildon in the first place. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold chris p bacon Posted May 30, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 30, 2017 This is the priority for the Swanage railway. http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/123172-start-of-the-swanage-wareham-trial-service-13-june-2017/ As well as covered storage for the existing stock. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killian keane Posted May 30, 2017 Share Posted May 30, 2017 Out of interest does anybody here know exactly when this loco last ran? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold chris p bacon Posted May 30, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 30, 2017 Out of interest does anybody here know exactly when this loco last ran? Probably when Victoria was on the throne. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killian keane Posted May 30, 2017 Share Posted May 30, 2017 There was a fair bit of contreversy over the closure of that broom cupboard (the clapham museum) and the old york museum, turned out well in the end though Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davey Posted May 30, 2017 Share Posted May 30, 2017 Withdrawn 1939, returned to war service till 1945, steamed at 25psi from Eastleigh to Waterloo for the station centenary exhibition in 1948. More here about the class, the class was mostly withdrawn By 1933, 3 continued but only 2 started the war, it's safe to assume it probably wasn't massively used, maintained or repaired during the war and was safely well knackered at wars end, I'm guessing it's probably not been fully works overhauled since the late 1920's early 30's, and was intended as a "last job overhaul", hence the LSWR (rather than replaced with newer SR) stamped fittings found on it. Lot of assumptions here I know, but look at modern image in the 80's.. diesels were run down, glossed up for the open day circuit, then entered preservation by popularity, but internally are knackered and often dragged about,. why would it be different back then ? http://www.semgonline.com/steam/t3class.html The only reason it's still here probably was due to surviving at the back of a carriage dump for a further 10 years till preservation started to gain traction in the late 1950's and entered preservation due to luck, sheer age and Darwinian survival... City of Truro this is not. There's a picture of it all rusted over dumped outside in the early 1950's somewhere on the net. Edit.., here's the results of my picture sleuthing on google... 1948 at Brighton (around the time of the Waterloo Centenary) and first repainting post withdrawal. https://thetransportlibrary.co.uk/image/cache/catalog/N/S/2/0/NS200951A-600x600.jpg ..1958 at Eastleigh prior to repaint.. https://www.flickr.com/photos/31514768@N05/22728264208 Post repaint in 1958 https://mikemorant.smugmug.com/keyword/adams;440/i-6cG2wLp On its way north in the 50's https://photos.smugmug.com/BRStandardSteam/BR-Standard-Class-4-260-760007/7600076005-Built-1952-Horwich/7600076005/i-gqvJ9fK/0/XL/76005%20towing%20LBSC%20terrier%20no%2082Boxhill%20%26%20Adams%20LSWR%20563%204th%20feb%201958-XL.jpg And south again at Eastleigh During repaint, in the 1960's https://www.flickr.com/photos/93456400@N04/15225143139 And Being towed North again to York in the 1970's https://www.flickr.com/photos/rgadsdon/5533967519 Sorry, but the photograph, https://www.flickr.com/photos/93456400@N04/15225143139 shows a T9 class 4-4-0, presumably No. 120, undergoing a repaint at Eastleigh. Davey Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zomboid Posted May 30, 2017 Share Posted May 30, 2017 That last picture of the 70s convoy is interesting. How many other standard gauge, main line locomotives would fit on a wagon other than a terrier? I've seen it done in North America with both an Alco PA and both the A4s from over there, but that's a different world when it comes to loading gauge... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killian keane Posted May 30, 2017 Share Posted May 30, 2017 That last picture of the 70s convoy is interesting. How many other standard gauge, main line locomotives would fit on a wagon other than a terrier? I've seen it done in North America with both an Alco PA and both the A4s from over there, but that's a different world when it comes to loading gauge...The flying bufferbeam and the port of par bagnalls for a start not to mention the beckton gasworks locos Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zomboid Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 I thoughtof them, but were they main line locos? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killian keane Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 I thoughtof them, but were they main line locos?My apologies! I didn't see that bit, I suppose novelty was technically a main line engine Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorsetmike Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 There is a brief reference to the possibility of a return to steam in the current Swanage news of the unveiling http://www.swanagerailway.co.uk/news/detail/unique-victorian-steam-locomotive-unveiled-in-front-of-designers-descendants 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bike2steam Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 There is a brief reference to the possibility of a return to steam in the current Swanage news of the unveiling http://www.swanagerailway.co.uk/news/detail/unique-victorian-steam-locomotive-unveiled-in-front-of-designers-descendants I very much doubt that the T3 will return to steam, but as an exhibit of the class of locos that hauled the first generation of holiday trains into Swanage ( the holiday trade didn't take off 'til the first decade in the 20th century) it is going to be more appreciated at Corfe Castle station than up in the north east of England whether at the stuffy NRM or Shildon. Not perfect being on show outside, I hope Swanrail will have her under cover - eventually. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold mcowgill Posted May 31, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 31, 2017 Edit.., here's the results of my picture sleuthing on google... 1948 at Brighton (around the time of the Waterloo Centenary) and first repainting post withdrawal. https://thetransportlibrary.co.uk/image/cache/catalog/N/S/2/0/NS200951A-600x600.jpg ..1958 at Eastleigh prior to repaint.. https://www.flickr.com/photos/31514768@N05/22728264208 Post repaint in 1958 https://mikemorant.smugmug.com/keyword/adams;440/i-6cG2wLp On its way north in the 50's https://photos.smugmug.com/BRStandardSteam/BR-Standard-Class-4-260-760007/7600076005-Built-1952-Horwich/7600076005/i-gqvJ9fK/0/XL/76005%20towing%20LBSC%20terrier%20no%2082Boxhill%20%26%20Adams%20LSWR%20563%204th%20feb%201958-XL.jpg And south again at Eastleigh During repaint, in the 1960's https://www.flickr.com/photos/93456400@N04/15225143139 And Being towed North again to York in the 1970's https://www.flickr.com/photos/rgadsdon/5533967519 I would say that the 1948 picture and the 1958 post repaint photo are the same occasion, just different angles, the other locos in the shot look to be the same. Martin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorsetmike Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 I've since heard that she will be outside at Corfe for the summer, then under cover for the winter when a mechanical assessment may be carried out Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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