Ownership of LSWR T3 no. 563 transfered to Swanage Railway

[phil-b259]

Hear hear that that man, far better to return it to its stomping ground where it will allow much interest rather being stuck away in the North East. As a local resident of Dorset  I look forward to its arrival and I would be happy to help get it steaming again, it will look a treat running in the Purbeck Hills rather than the grime of the North East.

 

Loconuts 

 

It might well do BUT there has been (i) Nothing published to say how the Swanage will achieve this* or (ii) How they plan to keep the loco reasonably protected in the interim.

 

* Saying "we plan to restore the T3 at some stage in the future" means nothing - after all I'm sure the Bluebell "plan at some stage" to restore the Adams Radial. The key difference between that and the T3 is that until such a thing can be achieved the Adams tank remains under cover in the shed at Sheffield Park and visitors can examine it close up where as the T3 will either be dumped outside exposed to the weather or stuffed in the back of a shed with no public access - or a combination of both!

[adb968008]

There seems to be a lot of hostility and doom about the T3 going to Swanage.

 

The NRM could have taken a more economic view and sold it to the highest bidder, and given the £ right now that could be overseas.

 

Give Swanage a chance, its a good railway, it's not as if this has been donated to Macdonalds,

is there a lot of envy from other lines here ?

 

A month ago no one cared about the T3, now it's being feted as if someone proposed the NRM disposing of Rocket.

[Steamport Southport]

There seems to be a lot of hostility and doom about the T3 going to Swanage.

 

The NRM could have taken a more economic view and sold it to the highest bidder, and given the £ right now that could be overseas.

 

Give Swanage a chance, its a good railway, it's not as if this has been donated to Macdonalds,

is there a lot of envy from other lines here ?

 

A month ago no one cared about the T3, now it's being feted as if someone proposed the NRM disposing of Rocket.

 

It's the fact that it has been given away that is the problem. Most of us wouldn't bat an eyelid if it had gone on loan.

 

Why to the Swanage? There are other LSWR preserved lines.

 

But somebody at the NRM has decided what is best for an item that they don't personally own without any consultation. Seeing the head of the NRM on Trainspotting Live recently then if he's an "expert" then I shudder to think about the knowledge of the other people in charge. But they've probably got a degree in Media Studies from an ex polytechnic so they are experts.

 

If anyone thinks that it looks like other locomotives in the collection then a visit to Specsavers is in order. Even if it does resemble other locomotives, does the NRM really need two almost identical GNR 4-4-2s and two LNER pacifics?

 

No one cared for 563? Yes they did. I certainly do or I wouldn't be commenting on it.

 

 

 

Jason

[chris p bacon]

does the NRM really need two almost identical GNR 4-4-2s and two LNER pacifics?

Eeeerrr yes they do, and if there is a God then there would be an awful lot more GN engines instead of those other interlopers....

[adb968008]

Any supporters for the petition!

Petition for what ?, repossessing it, restoring it, reallocating to another siding on another railway ?

 

The NRMs future is based on attracting people through the doors. Those people tend to carry iPads instead of notebooks nowadays, and so the cafeteria experience is more important than the engine shed experience to its patrons.

 

Many preserved lines have yet to learn this, and the days of rain soaked mk1s with 60's loos and windows that are dirtier than the loco have a shelf life.

 

I'd love the T3 to have a working future, but the NRM it would never have it. It's probably not immediately likely at Swanage either, but any place with a future display, which needn't even be at Swanage (Wareham bay platform or even Waterloo concourse if it works) is more than good.

 

Resenting Swanage is childish, if Mid Hants, South Devon or even Strathspey got it, everyone could say the same thing there too. Offering it to the highest bidder isn't always a good idea in a market with limited money.

 

Preservation's future in general is going to be a tricky one, there are locos today that are rusting in sidings back to their Barry condition with little hope for the future, and it could be some numerously preserved exBR engines working today (west countries, black 5 etc) may eventually be scrapped to save historic ones like the T3.

 

If the NRMs collection is a liability, then it needs to divest and adapt to survive, it has two Deltics, two Type 3's, two EE diesels so I would be surprised if there was a further divestment. No one was too concerned when 46235 was divested, nor 50033, 84001.

 

I expect the NRM may even decline some locos that may be offered to its collection in the future, when its current owners cannot continue and demand isn't there, which at that point could cause a crisis, it's happened with 1 loco already, but fortunately there was demand elsewhere to take it on.

Edited April 9, 2017 by adb968008

[chris p bacon]

I'd love the T3 to have a working future, but the NRM it would never have it. It's probably not immediately likely at Swanage either, but any place with a future display, which needn't even be at Swanage (Wareham bay platform or even Waterloo concourse if it works) is more than good.

 

The issue people have is not with the NRM loaning but with the gifting away.

 

I am a Premier Life Member of the Swanage Railway and I have no idea where they're going to put it. The bay at Swanage is earmarked for the Wareham service which at present is the railways priority.

Apart from a very cramped Corfe, there isn't anywhere for it that I can think of that Joe Public can get to. 

[Steamport Southport]

Petition for what ?, repossessing it, restoring it, reallocating to another siding on another railway ?

 

The NRMs future is based on attracting people through the doors. Those people tend to carry iPads instead of notebooks nowadays, and so the cafeteria experience is more important than the engine shed experience to its patrons.

 

Many preserved lines have yet to learn this, and the days of rain soaked mk1s with 60's loos and windows that are dirtier than the loco have a shelf life.

 

I'd love the T3 to have a working future, but the NRM it would never have it. It's probably not immediately likely at Swanage either, but any place with a future display, which needn't even be at Swanage (Wareham bay platform or even Waterloo concourse if it works) is more than good.

 

Resenting Swanage is childish, if Mid Hants, South Devon or even Strathspey got it, everyone could say the same thing there too.

 

Preservation's future in general is going to be a tricky one, there are locos today that are rusting in sidings back to their Barry condition with little hope for the future, and it could be some numerously preserved exBR engines working today (west countries, black 5 etc) may eventually be scrapped to save historic ones like the T3.

 

I don't think anyone is resenting Swanage.

 

But what makes them so special to be given a locomotive out of the National Collection whereas the Bluebell, Severn Valley, NYMR, etc. didn't? The same goes for the NSR 0-6-2T.

 

Let it go on loan. But to be given the locomotive? No. It shouldn't be happening.

 

 

Jason

[phil-b259]

Resenting Swanage is childish, if Mid Hants, South Devon or even Strathspey got it, everyone could say the same thing there too.

 

 

You are missing the point - its not that the loco has been gifted to the Swanage thats the big issue - its the fact the loco has been gifted to a railway that, at present doesn't have the facilities to keep her undercover and on display to the public while they raise funds to overhaul her. Now if the Swanage and the NRM had come up with a plan - e.g. put her on display on Waterloo concourse in the short term for example then people would be a lot less critical. The simple fact is currently the T3 is in a relatively good external condition - stuffing her away at the end of a siding outdoors will manifestly not help it stay that way. If a loco is already in a poor external condition storage outside is not nearly so much of an issue as you wouldn't want it on public display anyway.

Edited April 9, 2017 by phil-b259

[APOLLO]

So be it Phil-b-259. I'll not argue, though I will donate !!

 

By the way last Sunday I visited the Ribble steam railway at Preston Docks. I was impressed with the many restorations underway there, most under cover in new buildings. A nice home for any NRM loco to be LOANED to. I don't know the set up at Swanage. I'm sure the T3 is going to a good home, but clarity is needed as to what will happen, both to the T3 and any future NRM "gifts".

 

Brit15

[phil-b259]

So be it Phil-b-259. I'll not argue, though I will donate !!

 

I should point out that my explanation of Government policy in post 125 doesn't necessarily mean I support it. However the chances of the position changing seems remote....

[PaulRhB]

With the right display Swanage is an excellent home for it. As Phil says though it needs to be protected so it doesn't deteriorate that's all

[chris p bacon]

Kindly read the earlier postings, 

Or just link it.

 

One person put the link to stop endless numbers searching 

 

Edit. Found it

 

After the 'squit' (Norfolk for trouble) over the release 70013 Oliver Cromwell my heckles have again risen on this subject.  I am looking for 5 supporters for a petition to review the disposal of this locomotive by parliament.  I echo the concerns raised by earlier posters and raise the fact that where will this end, there are many historic artifacts in State ownership so if a precedent is set what else is at risk.

 

There isn't actually a petition but you want to start one.

Edited April 9, 2017 by chris p bacon

[chris p bacon]

And the basis for the proposition of the scrapping of locomotives working today to save historic ones is?  Please expand.

Money,  and the future lack of it as the steam era preservationists pass away.

 

The simple fact is that engineering and preservation will get more expensive but the pot from which the present funds come from will shrink.

[jjb1970]

With the best will in the world, given everything happening in this country and the world just now I think our MPs have got more important things to keep them busy than worrying about preserved steam locomotives.

Edited April 9, 2017 by jjb1970

[PhilH]

Money, and the future lack of it as the steam era preservationists pass away.

 

The simple fact is that engineering and preservation will get more expensive but the pot from which the present funds come from will shrink.

In my experience 'steam era preservationists' aren't a finite box of wrinkly old men living out their boyhood dreams. On the railway I volunteer on, and this is backed up by other railways I visit, the SEP is just as likely to be a young man who has picked up or is employed using just the same engineering skills as we, the old guard, use, is just as likely to be a passionate about the things as we are/ were and is willing to put the time in to get the things running.

 

I am more optimistic about the future of steam preservation now than I have been for a long time.

Edited April 9, 2017 by PhilH

[chris p bacon]

With the best will in the world, given everything happening in this country and the world just now I think our MPs have got more important things to keep them busy than worrying about preserved steam locomotives.

What..........Is there anything else happening.......

[Steamport Southport]

Money,  and the future lack of it as the steam era preservationists pass away.

 

The simple fact is that engineering and preservation will get more expensive but the pot from which the present funds come from will shrink.

 

We had all those scare stories back in the 1960s and 1970s. Okay I wasn't there, but have read back through old Railway Magazines and Railway Worlds. It continued into the 1990s. Funny how half those locomotives have steamed since.

 

Nearly every issue had a letter saying "Scrap the lot" or "There's nothing worth saving". If we had listened to the naysayers then, then the only things saved would have been what's in the NRM and a few early railways such as the Bluebell.

 

I visit heritage railways all the time and there seem to be more youngsters than there was when I used to volunteer. There are also more families. The days of people visiting purely for nostalgic reasons are probably already over.

 

 

Jason

[adb968008]

And the basis for the proposition of the scrapping of locomotives working today to save historic ones is?  Please expand.

i'm expecting a few more boilers that have been steamed in preservation are likely to pass the point of no return soon, I've heard a few have been pretty much declared finished, but have steamed since Barry, but not likely again.

 

We've already seen several Barry wrecks dismantled, at some point the weaker ones that have steamed, but are awaiting overhaul may start giving up parts to others on a more permanent basis.

 

Put it another way, if your loco has borrowed bits from another loco, then a major part fails and there's no funds, then it sits in a siding for 10-20 years... eventually it'll start yielding bits to others, as the costs or technology becomes impractical to create replacements.

 

I wouldn't call it "impossible" but I'm not expecting to ride behind 30841 again in my life, but I did once in the 1980's.

[jjb1970]

Really. Do you mean their expenses which must cause a few periods of anxiety at audit time?

 

A particularly facile comment unless you are oblivious to what is happening around us.

[New Haven Neil]

Hear hear that that man, far better to return it to its stomping ground where it will allow much interest rather being stuck away in the North East. As a local resident of Dorset  I look forward to its arrival and I would be happy to help get it steaming again, it will look a treat running in the Purbeck Hills rather than the grime of the North East.

 

Loconuts 

 

Spoken like someone who has never been north of Watford Gap.  No need for that sort of approach at all.  Grime indeed. Ever been to Bridport?

[uax6]

Theres also the case of the Bloomer going to the Milton Keynes Museum.  

 

That place really annoys me. They were gifted the last remaining Mobile Unit Automatic telephone eXchange number 12 about 20 years ago by  BT. This is a significant part of our Communications History, and although designed to sit outside while it was in use (these mobile exchanges where designed for disaster recovery, like when exchanges exploded, or when there was significant telephone expansion that wasn't expected they would be installed while the original exchange was expanded) they were stored between use in buildings, so that they didn't get damp and deteriorate. When they got this mobile I explained this to the curator, and urged them to get sponsorship for a glass lean-to to keep the weather off, but sit allow it to be seen (there was no room in their buildings to keep it dry). This feel on deaf ears, and then about three years ago they moved and repainted it. Its still sat outside, and last time I visited there were signs that leaks were developing... Oh and I offered to produced a set of correct transfers for it (Free!), but they declined as the painter had a set made up. Fine, except that they were of the wrong typeface and spacing.......

 

Now they have the replica Bloomer, which I understand is just going to sit in the carpark, so will probably start having things pinched of it (The museum is in a rough part of MK). What a shame.

 

Sadly I'm sure most of it is down to lack of commercial knowledge skills to interface the correct companies to engage them into sponsoring history.... (Bl**dy hell that was a very PC sentence that last one wasn't it?)

 

Andy G

[Steamport Southport]

i'm expecting a few more boilers that have been steamed in preservation are likely to pass the point of no return soon, I've heard a few have been pretty much declared finished, but have steamed since Barry, but not likely again.

 

We've already seen several Barry wrecks dismantled, at some point the weaker ones that have steamed, but are awaiting overhaul may start giving up parts to others on a more permanent basis.

 

Put it another way, if your loco has borrowed bits from another loco, then a major part fails and there's no funds, then it sits in a siding for 10-20 years... eventually it'll start yielding bits to others, as the costs or technology becomes impractical to create replacements.

 

I wouldn't call it "impossible" but I'm not expecting to ride behind 30841 again in my life, but I did once in the 1980's.

 

 

There will come a time when new boiler production will happen. Being financially involved in three new builds I have a grasp of what's involved. But most boilers can be repaired with modern welding techniques.

 

As for 30841, maybe it's frames are too far gone? But it's a relatively easy task to make new ones if the will is there.

 

 

 

Jason

[PhilH]

There will come a time when new boiler production will happen. Being financially involved in three new builds I have a grasp of what's involved. But most boilers can be repaired with modern welding techniques.

 

As for 30841, maybe it's frames are too far gone? But it's a relatively easy task to make new ones if the will is there.

 

 

 

Jason

We have three S15s on the go at Ropley and have just replaced 9 feet of frame on one of them. Many years ago we replaced the front twelve feet of frame on 60019. As Jason says with modern methods and materials nothing is impossible when it comes to nailing on new bits for the things.

[Dunsignalling]

Petition for what ?, repossessing it, restoring it, reallocating to another siding on another railway ?

 

The NRMs future is based on attracting people through the doors. Those people tend to carry iPads instead of notebooks nowadays, and so the cafeteria experience is more important than the engine shed experience to its patrons.

 

Many preserved lines have yet to learn this, and the days of rain soaked mk1s with 60's loos and windows that are dirtier than the loco have a shelf life.

 

I'd love the T3 to have a working future, but the NRM it would never have it. It's probably not immediately likely at Swanage either, but any place with a future display, which needn't even be at Swanage (Wareham bay platform or even Waterloo concourse if it works) is more than good.

 

Resenting Swanage is childish, if Mid Hants, South Devon or even Strathspey got it, everyone could say the same thing there too. Offering it to the highest bidder isn't always a good idea in a market with limited money.

 

Preservation's future in general is going to be a tricky one, there are locos today that are rusting in sidings back to their Barry condition with little hope for the future, and it could be some numerously preserved exBR engines working today (west countries, black 5 etc) may eventually be scrapped to save historic ones like the T3.

 

If the NRMs collection is a liability, then it needs to divest and adapt to survive, it has two Deltics, two Type 3's, two EE diesels so I would be surprised if there was a further divestment. No one was too concerned when 46235 was divested, nor 50033, 84001.

 

I expect the NRM may even decline some locos that may be offered to its collection in the future, when its current owners cannot continue and demand isn't there, which at that point could cause a crisis, it's happened with 1 loco already, but fortunately there was demand elsewhere to take it on.

All of which seems to me to support the idea that it's the NRM's job, if it can't adequately store/exhibit/maintain 563, to loan it to a custodian who can as has worked well in the past, e.g. with Sir Lamiel. Most, if not all, the criticism has been directed at the idea of giving it away. 

 

Now, the Swanage Railway is a successful operation and there is very little likelihood of it failing in its custodianship of this loco, at least in the foreseeable future. That said, it behoves the NRM to specify in any such transfer agreement, what is to become of the artefact in the event of the new owner either going out of business or failing to take adequate care of what is, after all, supposed to be part of a National Collection.

 

If a loco is loaned, the position is clear, but once ownership is transferred, it becomes an asset of the new owner, to be fought over (legally speaking) and disposed of at scrap value (and hence possibly for scrap) in the event of such problems arising.

 

The NRM should remain 563's "Preservationist of Last Resort". It may be that whatever agreement is drawn up between the NRM and Swanage Railway will ensure reversion of the loco's title to the former in the event of the failure of the latter, either commercially or in its duty of care to the item. That end however, can be achieved with far greater certainty and clarity by a loan agreement or lease; rather than by transferring the "freehold". 

 

John      

Edited April 9, 2017 by Dunsignalling

[bike2steam]

I'd love to see an engineer's report on the mechanical condition of 563. If there's not one available at the NRM, then I'd expect Swanage Railway to get one put together before deciding what to do with it. I'd be very surprised that restoring the loco to running condition would be feasible without a serious amount of unredeemable cash being spent on it, for which Swanage Railway would need to know a list of financial sponsors/benefactors that would be willing to put forward large amounts, all before announcing the loco's fate. I would suspect the NRM have decided it's too expensive, so it is the reason for their giving it to Swanage. Sorry for not reading all the posts on this thread, and possibly repeating what someone else might have said - but I have a life.   Perhaps 'stuffing & mounting' will be the only recourse.

Edited April 9, 2017 by bike2steam