Ownership of LSWR T3 no. 563 transfered to Swanage Railway

[phil-b259]

 Sorry for not reading all the posts on this thread, and possibly repeating what someone else might have said - but I have a life.   Perhaps 'stuffing & mounting' will be the only recourse.

 

But where?

 

This is the nub of the issue - stored under a Tarpaulin or at the back of a non-publicly accessible shed,  is not being 'Stuffed & Mounted' as you put it yet that seems the most likely course of action for the next 5 years or more. The Swanage railway at present have a shortage of undercover space to display the T3 and as far as we can tell no specific plans to address the issue beyond the a generalised long term aim of improving the situation as regards under cover space on the railway as time and fundraising permits.

[bike2steam]

But where?

 

This is the nub of the issue - stored under a Tarpaulin or at the back of a non-publicly accessible shed,  is not being 'Stuffed & Mounted' as you put it yet that seems the most likely course of action for the next 5 years or more. The Swanage railway at present have a shortage of undercover space to display the T3 and as far as we can tell no specific plans to address the issue beyond the a generalised long term aim of improving the situation as regards under cover space on the railway as time and fundraising permits.

Don't panic, let's wait and see - sometimes I wish I was back on the railway's 'Council Of Management'.

[Loconuts]

Y

 

Spoken like someone who has never been north of Watford Gap.  No need for that sort of approach at all.  Grime indeed. Ever been to Bridport?

 

You are talking to someone who use to live in Yorkshire!!!!!!!

 

Loconuts

[chris p bacon]

But where?

 

This is the nub of the issue - stored under a Tarpaulin or at the back of a non-publicly accessible shed,  is not being 'Stuffed & Mounted' as you put it yet that seems the most likely course of action for the next 5 years or more. The Swanage railway at present have a shortage of undercover space to display the T3 and as far as we can tell no specific plans to address the issue beyond the a generalised long term aim of improving the situation as regards under cover space on the railway as time and fundraising permits.

 

 

Don't panic, let's wait and see - sometimes I wish I was back on the railway's 'Council Of Management'.

Wait and see, for what?

 

Would this be for the carriage shed that went quiet with little explanation after the fundraing and earthworks ?  Lets face it the SR can barely keep up with the deterioration of the running stock without any covered accommodation. And If it is possible to build something at Furzebrook this is not going to be accessible to the public,  so quite where the T3 is going to go is going to be interesting. Herston is full with no spare space and a queue of locomotives planned for quite some time.

 

I'm not quite sure how being on the CoM would make a difference, unless you can conjur up some more land and the cash to go with it as the intensive service means there is no spare money.

[PaulRhB]

Well Paul would know what was going on if he was on the CoM

Getting Furzebrook would mean far more space to work on coaches undercover and Swanage goods shed could then be turned into a museum featuring a loco not in ticket. Not quite the SVR engine house but something to occupy visitors waiting for a train.

[Loconuts]

We are all assuming that the Swanage Railway are just going to store is under a tarpaulin, they would be idiots to do that. To get that loco steaming again would be a big crowd draw in a tourist area. It will be well looked after and made the 'Star' of the line. People seem to forget that they have the M7 there.

 

As to the politics of why this has happened we will never know, however putting out for loan would condemn the loco. I know of one NRM loco that has been on loan to the GWS at Didcot for a number of years. This loco needs a new boiler but the NRM will not pay for it. That loco is the Wantage Tramway 'Shannon' (Jane) which held the distinction of being the oldest working steam loco in the country. On my last visit to Didcot a year ago it was not even on display but stuffed in a shed.

 

As to rotting coaches, this is a problem for a lot of preserved lines getting the volunteers to work on them. Everyone wants to work on the locos not the coaches so it takes longer to get a coach refurbished than a loco. The only coach that I know that was restored quickly was the GWR Steam Railmotor. However the coach body sat around from the 1970's with no work being done on it.

 

Loconuts  

[PaulRhB]

The fact is there are three sheds on the current line. Swanage goods shed is big enough but used for coach and wagon restoration. Corfe goods shed is a museum and not really long enough. Swanage loco shed in use by working locos. Herston Works is seperate and full up too. So they desperately need more covered space and they raised funds for a small shed at Herston Halt but design errors have stalled it. Securing sheds there is also an issue as when I worked on the S&T there were several attempts to break into the containers at Herston as it's away from houses so you can make a lot of noise trying.

Furzebrook is also in a secluded spot so security will have to be good to prevent break ins and worse. It may sound harsh but it's a reality and even on the national network we get regular graffiti attacks and theft.

Big sheds like the ones at Ropley or the huge ones on the SVR cost a lot and, as Ropley proved, ideally need fire protection too.

Solve that problem and you create space for the loco while it waits. Finding the funds while Project Wareham is still not complete is the issue. They can't allocate funds to erect the water tower they salvaged from Salisbury yard either so a big shed looks unlikely anytime soon.

[37038]

Reading some of the comments on this thread make my head hurt. The answer to why the NRM transfers ownership is very simple - it also transfers liability.

 

Example - the class 502. It was claimed for the country, but never went to York as it stayed at Steamport. Steamport shuts, no room at the Ribble Steam Railway for it, NRM is lumbered with two coaches that need a lot spending on them (which is not available), so it stores them at an MOD base. After a few years, MOD base is no longer available, still no space at York or Shildon, no other railways are interested, so NRM makes it known that scrapping is the only option left to it. A few die-hard / crazy enthusiasts (led by me) come up with a plan, present it to the NRM and are loaned the unit on the understanding that ownership will be transferred to us at some point in the future.  Work starts on unit, then about 5 years ago ownership (and all liabilities) are in the hands of the Friends of the 502 Group. So, for example, if we ever found any asbestos in it (even though it has been removed), it's our problem.

 

To put this into the T3 issue - why would any group put hundreds of thousands of pounds into a steam locomotive overhaul when they don't own it?

[PhilH]

Reading some of the comments on this thread make my head hurt. The answer to why the NRM transfers ownership is very simple - it also transfers liability.

 

Example - the class 502. It was claimed for the country, but never went to York as it stayed at Steamport. Steamport shuts, no room at the Ribble Steam Railway for it, NRM is lumbered with two coaches that need a lot spending on them (which is not available), so it stores them at an MOD base. After a few years, MOD base is no longer available, still no space at York or Shildon, no other railways are interested, so NRM makes it known that scrapping is the only option left to it. A few die-hard / crazy enthusiasts (led by me) come up with a plan, present it to the NRM and are loaned the unit on the understanding that ownership will be transferred to us at some point in the future.  Work starts on unit, then about 5 years ago ownership (and all liabilities) are in the hands of the Friends of the 502 Group. So, for example, if we ever found any asbestos in it (even though it has been removed), it's our problem.

 

To put this into the T3 issue - why would any group put hundreds of thousands of pounds into a steam locomotive overhaul when they don't own it?

Because you don't then have to pay hire fees for that loco which, over seven or ten years at say £450 a day for a larger loco on a 150 day a year agreement is a lot of money. It's like paying cash up front instead of buying something on the knock, you save in the long run.

[jjb1970]

MP's are public servants let us not forget that.  At the expectation of a similar response to this comment, perhaps they should concentrate on serving the public to the exclusion of other personal jobs and business interests.  That means we as the electorate have the right to be heard and the resource of a Petition is available, unfortunately in this case unlikely to even be implemented with the lack of support.

 

The general consensus seems to be that the locomotive should not be given away but loaned.  This is what needs to be reviewed by those in power.  

 

 

If you’re serious about trying to get MPs to take an interest in this issue, rather than use the petition system I’d recommend writing to your MP. That allows you to present a case and provide the rationale and why you feel so strongly about this issue. Based on my observations, unless a petition goes viral and gets 100,000’s of signatures (possible but unlikely for a case like this) then MPs are much more responsive to letters and/or surgery visits from their constituents. I tend to see the petition system as just another example of political tokenism. Believe it or not, most MPs are intelligent and well intentioned people and if you engage with them in a positive way are often extremely helpful and will pursue issues raised by constituents.

[bike2steam]

To put this into the T3 issue - why would any group put hundreds of thousands of pounds into a steam locomotive overhaul when they don't own it?

Huh ! Reminds me of the issue that the Swanage Railway had with the NRM over the T9 about 25 years ago.

[Horsetan]

There will come a time when new boiler production will happen. Being financially involved in three new builds I have a grasp of what's involved. But most boilers can be repaired with modern welding techniques.

 

As for 30841, maybe it's frames are too far gone? But it's a relatively easy task to make new ones if the will is there.

 

OT, but if it is possible to cut new frames for 30841, I think that still leaves the problem of building a new boiler for it. When the surviving S15s were mostly in ex-Barry states, I recall that at least one Maunsell boiler (30825) was bought as a replacement for one of the surviving Urie S15s (30499 or 30506), since the Urie boiler was not viable to repair. This left 30825 (it initially went to Brightlingsea) with no boiler; it now carries the boiler transferred from 30841.

[Zomboid]

Building boilers is entirely possible, as Tornado proved.

Raising the money to build one for an S15 when there are several other similar locos still in existence would be a more thorny issue.

[locoholic]

I have received an email from Andrew McLean of the NRM regarding the T3.

 

The gist of it is that there were four 4-4-0 locos from the Southern Railway & its predecessors in the National Collection, and the T3 was the least important. My interpretation is that it is too similar to the Wainwright D class, and if they tried to dispose of the latter there would be the most almighty outcry, so the T3 was chosen.

 

I was referred to the Science Museum Group policies, but so far I have been unable to find a section that would justify their actions.

 

Mr McLean states that the Swanage Railway could put the T3 in the Goods Shed at Corfe Castle, the loco shed at Swanage, or their engineering base at Herston.

 

In my original message to the NRM I asked if any other exhibits were up for disposal. Mr McLean has not replied to that question.

 

I see this matter as just another stage in the dumming down of the NRM. Who needs actual trains in a railway museum, when they apparently contribute so little to the "visitor experience"?

[New Haven Neil]

You're right there, the visitor experience apparently needed a café in the main hall.  Couldn't believe it when we last went there.

[Steamport Southport]

Shows what little the people in charge actually know about railways.....

 

 

 

Jason

[Ohmisterporter]

I have received an email from Andrew McLean of the NRM regarding the T3.

 

The gist of it is that there were four 4-4-0 locos from the Southern Railway & its predecessors in the National Collection, and the T3 was the least important. My interpretation is that it is too similar to the Wainwright D class, and if they tried to dispose of the latter there would be the most almighty outcry, so the T3 was chosen.

 

I was referred to the Science Museum Group policies, but so far I have been unable to find a section that would justify their actions.

 

Mr McLean states that the Swanage Railway could put the T3 in the Goods Shed at Corfe Castle, the loco shed at Swanage, or their engineering base at Herston.

 

In my original message to the NRM I asked if any other exhibits were up for disposal. Mr McLean has not replied to that question.

 

I see this matter as just another stage in the dumming down of the NRM. Who needs actual trains in a railway museum, when they apparently contribute so little to the "visitor experience"?

 

That sounds like they simply Googled Swanage Railway and found they had some sheds and didn't check with the SR to ask if they had enough space for the T3. I would like to know the official SR version of events.

[PhilH]

It's easy to get emotive about the term 'life expired parts' when referring to locomotive parts. We're not talking flesh and blood here we're talking metal which is, for the most part, easily reworked.

 

At its most basic worn steel parts can be built up with weld and remachined right through to new castings made and machined. Boiler bits don't normally wear out at the same rate so bits are routinely chopped out and replaced..for an example of that see the 35005 Canadian Pacific blog on the Mid Hants website.

 

As with all machines you expect to have to maintain them, and nail on new bits when necessary. As I said before with newer techniques, competitive quotes and a willing work force it's not half as bad as the doomsdayers would have you believe.

Edited April 12, 2017 by PhilH

[JeremyC]

We are living in a recession. There is no money coming in. HM Treasury is tightening its grip on all Govt Departments. The Science Museum has to balance its budget. Getting rid of obscure artefacts and rusty heaps - which rather less than 10% of the public care about - makes sense, as does running coffee stalls instead of historic exhibits.

We may weep, but this is the world in 2017.

By that arguement we should be disposing of or giving away paintings from the national art collections, after all how many people care about them and many are never or are rarely seen in public.

If I was that way inclined I might ask why products of British craftsmen are apparently less valued that those of foreign artists.

Edited April 12, 2017 by JeremyC

[Dorsetmike]

Well 563 is now at Swanage.

 

http://www.swanagerailway.co.uk/news/detail/unique-victorian-steam-locomotive-arrives-on-swanage-railway-thanks-to-the-national-railway-museum

[chris p bacon]

Luckily it came with its own tarpaulin.

[Dava]

Not a word about being stored securely and under cover. How long before historic bits start to disappear and rust gets under the paintwork. As previously observed, where's the conservation plan? This is not a candidate for return to steam outside someone's fantasy.

 

Dava

[Ian J.]

Not a word about being stored securely and under cover. How long before historic bits start to disappear and rust gets under the paintwork. As previously observed, where's the conservation plan? This is not a candidate for return to steam outside someone's fantasy.

 

Dava

 

That was my first thought on reading about the arrival. How is it going to be properly secured so that no bits get 'nicked'?

[bike2steam]

The last pic looks like the approach road to Corfe goods shed, is that where it's staying ??

[Oldddudders]

Luckily it came with its own tarpaulin.

And red is just so LSWR.