CARROG in 4mm & Ruabon discussion...

[peterstgermain]

I thought the Dukedog was a Bluebell engine - it used to be a mainstay

It was at Steel Steam & Stars, I think in 2009\10. I had a wonderful run behind it to Carrog. A super Gala all said.

[woodenhead]

I think the issue is that you are building Carrog not essence of Carrog, so when you begin to veer from it's true form you begin to doubt yourself because it starts to wander from your minds eye (and the actual photographic evidence you have).

 

The fact you are putting in extra sidings and moving the cattle dock around is your mind playing with your emotion - you want something that looks like the prototype (and it does) but operationally you want something more to shunt with so the extra sidings go in (then come out and go back in etc).  As Stationmaster has said, that new siding shouldn't be a facing point and putting in a true access to it will really destroy what is Carrog. 

 

Maybe an option is to keep Carrog faithful but make your fiddleyard scenic and put in the shunting interest on that side with something in a Cambrian flavour rather than the faithfulness of Carrog - this can be your playpen for shunting whilst Carrog remains the picture perfect scene for stock, engines and passing trains.

Edited September 27, 2017 by woodenhead

[Ruffnut Thorston]

I thought the Dukedog was a Bluebell engine - it used to be a mainstay

The locos were re-numbered from the 3200 Series to the 9000 Series in 1946 to make way for new 2251 (Collett Goods) 0-6-0 Tender Locos.

 

The Dukedog was purchased straight from BR for the Bluebell Railway after Withdrawl from Oswestry in October 1960

It arrived in November 1962.

 

The nameplates from Castle Class Loco  "Earl Of Berkley" were also purchased in 1963, and the Loco ran at the Bluebell in GWR green, as 9017, complete with the nameplates.

 

The loco never received the 'plates in GWR days, as the Earls were not impressed with the loco's appearence..Too old Fashioned!

 

When the numberplates from 2251 3217 were purchased, they were fitted to the Earl. Creating a "Might Have Been"..

.

The loco did not have Great Western ot GWR lettering on the tender (at least in the 1970s, when I had a run behind the loco....(I have now read that the C Class tender was used!)

The outside rods "flailing around" looked good, and I was hooked. It has taken until today for me to have my Own Dukedog. Thanks Bachmann!

 

(As an aside: There is an opening for something different, a Green Dukedog with a plain green C class tender! )

 

When the loco was withdrawn for repairs....it was re-painted BR Black, as 9017, without the nameplates, and had some photos taken.

 

In 2003 it was painted GWR Green as 9017, with the nameplates...

 

The loco went to Didcot to appear with City Of Truro (The only other outside frame GWR Loco?), and this started the ball rolling, and the loco has since visited other lines.

 

 

http://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/pic2/gwr/dukedog.html

Edited September 28, 2017 by Sarahagain

[coachmann]

I think the issue is that you are building Carrog not essence of Carrog, so when you begin to veer from it's true form you begin to doubt yourself because it starts to wander from your minds eye (and the actual photographic evidence you have).

 

The fact you are putting in extra sidings and moving the cattle dock around is your mind playing with your emotion - you want something that looks like the prototype (and it does) but operationally you want something more to shunt with so the extra sidings go in (then come out and go back in etc).  As Stationmaster has said, that new siding shouldn't be a facing point and putting in a true access to it will really destroy what is Carrog. 

 

Maybe an option is to keep Carrog faithful but make your fiddleyard scenic and put in the shunting interest on that side with something in a Cambrian flavour rather than the faithfulness of Carrog - this can be your playpen for shunting whilst Carrog remains the picture perfect scene for stock, engines and passing trains.

You are right of course. It does offend my senses when the overall scene departs too much from the aura of Carrog.

 

Regarding leading points into sidings, Down trains have always safely negotiated leading points when using Carrog's Up platform, as indeed they do to this day.  So I thought, what the hell, there is a precedent here.  Certainly saved me a boatload of messing about. I dont think I posted pictures of the time (some weeks ago) when there was a trailing crossover and a long headshunt to that new siding. It lasted 24 hours before being ripped up.

 

The cattle dock is now back where it started and at the moment I am looking for some fine ash. Time flies when the weather is poor. One highlight of the morning was deciding after years of procrastination to order a YouChoos 'Crab' sound decoder for the Hughes Fowler 'Crab'. This model is the oldest in my meager collection, it being a left-over from my Diggle layout. 

Edited September 27, 2017 by coachmann

[Focalplane]

Larry

 

I bought a container of ash at Telford, suitable for 4mm or 77m scales.  Made by Peco it is item PS-364 "Ash Dust".  As I don't smoke (never have) and have no fireplace this seemed the only way to go.  It does go against the grain though as I like to use free materials whenever possible and ash really ought to cost nothing.

 

I have been quietly thinking "stick with the Carrog prototype" but that is because I am trying very hard to do that with Penmaenpool.  Seeing you veer off the straight and narrow might just let me think of doing the same.

 

Paul

[woodenhead]

How about a compressed Barmouth themed fiddleyard minus the excursion platform - it has some sidings to shunt, somewhere to hold coaches plus a couple of platforms.

 

It would fit in with Carrog and gives somewhere to properly shunt 

[BWsTrains]

Mid afternoon in September and we have the lights on in the house. What a country! It is too dark to do anymore in the shed

Hi Larry,

 

great progress made.

 

Sounds like you need bulb type 10W LEDs that fit into existing bayonet sockets (I find Cool White is better than warm white for photos). 3 of these gave me a great lighting level (better than 180W of yellowish incandescents) over a 5m x 3.5m room with the energy demand reduced by 5/6ths.

Edited September 27, 2017 by BWsTrains

[coachmann]

Hi Larry,

 

great progress made.

 

Sounds like you need bulb type 10W LEDs that fit into existing bayonet sockets (I find Cool White is better than warm white for photos). 3 of these gave me a great lighting level (better than 180W of yellowish incandescents) over a 5m x 3.5m room with the energy demand reduced by 5/6ths.

Thanks. I have a neat set of lights but never got around to installing them. In fact, if I needed lights outdoors I would also need heating. I see outdoors as a summertime hobby and so Carrog needs to be completed soon according to my timetable.  

[TrevorP1]

I love it Trevor. Thanks very much for posting.  I was there in 2009 just to see the Dukedog not having seen one fifty years.

 

WEB Dukedog Carrog 1.jpg

 

 

At risk of going off topic, I find the Dukedog a very attractive, well proportioned engine even if the class is a 'bitza'. More in proportion than a City for example. I have often hoped that Bachmann might follow it up with a Bulldog, of which there are many variants to keep the collectors busy but perhaps not to be...

[coachmann]

A friend kindly bought me 'Cambrian Companionship', an old book by a chap who lived and breathed the Cambrian, GWR and BR and gained access to many a footplate. I had always assumed the Dukedogs were an everyday occurrence on Cambrian lines in the 1950's, but the author says in the book that the Dukedogs were as often as not in store with being at the bottom of the power scale, so it is small wonder that lineside photographers were out in force whenever odd locos were put into traffic. I thought they were magic but i admit I wasn't as impressed when I saw the preserved one at Llangollen. I suspect a grubby appearance would have looked more impressive to me!

 

The author also covers the 'Manors' and the oft-written thing about them being initially poor steamers is debunked. It seems there were good ones and bad ones and the bad ones remained so after new draughting and new chimneys. It is an interesting book.

Edited September 27, 2017 by coachmann

[Focalplane]

Larry

 

I agree about Cambrian Companionship.  I picked up my copy at Telford (Nick Tozer's stand) and it does indeed give a lot of interesting insight.  One train I didn't think possible was a Birmingham-Pwllheli via Ruabon and Llangollen.  I still wonder about it being a typo.  Such a train could/should have travelled via Welshpool and Mach I would have thought.

 

Another useful point is that Oswestry shed code Manors seemed to be popular on the Llangollen route.  I think there was a lot of temporary swapping going on at the time, for example selecting the best loco for the job in hand.

 

Photos of Talyllyn and other specials often had double-headed Dukedogs, no doubt brought out of store for the occasion?

 

I definitely remember 9017 being in storage at Oswestry Works, along with the W&L Earl and Countess narrow gauge locos.  Just a thought, were the latter named after the Earl and Countess of Powys?  I bet they were.

 

Paul

[coachmann]

Paul,

 

I used to have a wonderful booklet, magazine article or set of papers on Dukedogs showing their different tenders, cabs and boiler mounting. They had probably settled down a lot by the time of nationalization.  I mustn't get a head of myself while the layout remains unfinished, but conversions and detailing interest me greatly and I look forward to the day when I can give my locos some individuality.

Edited September 27, 2017 by coachmann

[The Johnster]

Larry

 

I agree about Cambrian Companionship.  I picked up my copy at Telford (Nick Tozer's stand) and it does indeed give a lot of interesting insight.  One train I didn't think possible was a Birmingham-Pwllheli via Ruabon and Llangollen.  I still wonder about it being a typo.  Such a train could/should have travelled via Welshpool and Mach I would have thought.

 

Another useful point is that Oswestry shed code Manors seemed to be popular on the Llangollen route.  I think there was a lot of temporary swapping going on at the time, for example selecting the best loco for the job in hand.

 

Photos of Talyllyn and other specials often had double-headed Dukedogs, no doubt brought out of store for the occasion?

 

I definitely remember 9017 being in storage at Oswestry Works, along with the W&L Earl and Countess narrow gauge locos.  Just a thought, were the latter named after the Earl and Countess of Powys?  I bet they were.

 

Paul

 

 

The Earl, and The Countess, later just Countess, were indeed named for those nobles, the Earl of Powys being one of the original promoters of the W & L.

 

A Birmingham-Pwllheli might be routed via Ruabon/Llangollen to save a path on the Cambrian Main Line between Shrewsbury and Machynlleth, especially when that line was close to capacity on a Summer Saturday!  I doubt it was a typo.

[coachmann]

I have been running the shunting movements over in my mind while in bed and came to the conclusion this siding wasn't really needed even on market (cattle movement) days, as the goods vans could be moved temporarily to the coal siding while the cattle trucks were loaded and then put back in the goods bay afterwards.  Off for the morning walk now...

 

 

Edited September 28, 2017 by coachmann

[Irishrailwaymodeller]

Another thought on this line is that the next station at Corwen had extensive goods sidings/facilities so a smaller station like Carrog may have had quite light goods traffic. In the case of Cynwyd (2 miles west of Corwen) I was shown its goods logbook at Berwyn recently and goods traffic was very light throughout its life also.

 

 

 

[Merfyn Jones]

A couple of senarios, both of which are a figment of photoshop. I find these help at times. The first one shows the slate loading dock long out of use and overgrown by the later 1950's....

 

WEB Senario 1.jpg

 

In this shot the loading dock is demolished with the ground reverting to nature. This is the one I will probably run with although a third option is to remove the siding as if it never existed and make good the running line...

WEB Senario 2.jpg

 

I have been running the shunting movements over in my mind while in bed and came to the conclusion this siding wasn't really needed even on market (cattle movement) days, as the goods vans could be moved temporarily to the coal siding while the cattle trucks were loaded and then put back in the goods bay afterwards.  Off for the morning walk now...

 

I'm with the overnight idea, get rid. It just looks wrong. Nice morning for that walk too.

Merf.

[coachmann]

I'm with the overnight idea, get rid. It just looks wrong. Nice morning for that walk too.

Merf.

Hi Merf,  It's gaw'n.  I spend a hour making a new trackbed from layers of cork to restore the camber that had been lost when putting in the turnout and adjacent track. I was using a short length of bullhead as a rail-height gauge only to discover is was DC Concepts and the track I was putting in was Peco bullhead with thicker sleepers!  With the darnedest luck, I found a good length of DC Concepts in the garage.

 

PS : To keep this thread relatively tidy, I have now deleted the senarious..

Edited September 28, 2017 by coachmann

[The Johnster]

I'd agree that, with Corwen so close even on Welsh rural roads, the major freight activity of the area would have taken place there, with only 'smalls' and the odd vanload like cattle supplementing the coal siding work at Carrog.  Corwen is close enough for locals to pick stuff up TBCF, or Mileage, or to have it collected or delivered by a BR road vehicle.

[bigwordsmith]

Thanks Saeah

The Dukedog was purchased straight from BR for the Bluebell Railway after Withdrawl from Oswestry in October 1960

It arrived in November 1962.

 

The nameplates from "Castle" Earl Of Berkley" were also purchased in 1963, and the Loco ran at the Bluebell in GWR green, as 9017, complete with the nameplates.

The loco never received the 'plates in GWR days, as the Earls were not impressed with the loco's appearence..

 

When the numberplates from 2251 3217 were purchased, they were fitted to the Earl. Creating a "Might Have Been"..

.

The loco did not have Great Western ot GWR lettering on the tender (at least in the 1970s, when I had a run behind the loco....(I have now read that the C Class tender was used!) The outside rods "flailing around" looked good, and I was hooked. It has taken until today for me to have my Own Dukedog. Thanks Bachmann!

 

(A an aside: There is an opening for something different, a Green Dukedog with a plain green C class tender! )

 

The locos were re-numbered from the 3200 Series to the 9000 Series in 1946 to make way for new 2251 (Collett Gods) 0-6-0 Tender Locos.

 

When the loco was withdrawn for repairs....it was re-painted BR Black, as 9017, without the nameplates, and had some photos taken.

 

In 2003 it was painted GWR Green as 9017, with the nameplates...

 

The loco went to Didcot to appear with City Of Truro (The only other outside frame GWR Loco?), and this started the ball rolling, and the loco has since visited other lines.

 

 

http://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/pic2/gwr/dukedog.html

 

Thanks Sarah, very informative!

[Andrew P]

Larry, If you hadn't tried, you wouldn't know it would be wrong, and you would still be wondering.

[380John]

Think you have done the right thing Larry. I was volunteering last week on the standard 4 and the view from the footplate entering the station limits was just like your view above. The layout you have produced is so accurate in terms of atmosphere as well as quality, it makes me feel it would be a shame to alter a view which through preservation is so well known by folk who enjoy travelling on heritage railways.

 

Your representation is obviously set well before preservation days but nonetheless your layout provides views of a station very well known due to its second life.

 

John

[tanatvalley]

A good example of cattle docks can be seen in Welshpool near to the railway station, see:

 

https://flic.kr/p/wFhPJR

 

Note how thin the tubular rods are.

 

I did photograph these docks and I will see if I can find them.

[brushman47544]

Wow the camber looks very effective. Your track even looks better laid than the real thing.

 

Are you planning to take Andrew P's masterclass and have a go at the point rodding?

[Andrew P]

Wow the camber looks very effective. Your track even looks better laid than the real thing.

 

Are you planning to take Andrew P's masterclass and have a go at the point rodding?

Jeff / Physicsman / Kirkby Luneside 2 and Kevin / KNP / Little Muddle are real Master Class's mate.

[coachmann]

Wow the camber looks very effective. Your track even looks better laid than the real thing.

 

Are you planning to take Andrew P's masterclass and have a go at the point rodding?

I was expelled for passing rude messages to Sybil Rowbottom.   

 

Square section brass was bought ages ago for point rodding. So yes, it is on the agenda, as are other things once I move beyond the scenic stage. Now Carrog is nearing completion, it has become a decent 'stage' for running trains and it is easier to adapt operation to fit Carrog than start completely afresh, as I did in the past. None of the other goods yards worked to my satisfaction apart from the present set up behind the Up platform.

 

The LMS 'Crab' will be sound fitted next week and so a freight flow will be found for it. One idea is a regular flow of coal from one of the collieries near Wrexham with reversal at Corwen and on to Ruthin, Denbigh and terminating in Rhyl from whence it will be distributed locally down the coast. This route also saves pathing it on the busy north Wales route. Point of Air coal was never popular in houses......Darn stuff was full of pebbles and set fire to our carpet once, but it was freely available during Ted Heath's rationing period!

Edited September 29, 2017 by coachmann